Thank-you Poland!

[nikimcbee]

Thanks for helping us!
You guys rock:rock: :up:
Spasibo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUontcpJ7-s&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jmhL3pOei8&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuNVBwD4OxI&mode=related&search=

[Polak]

I salute, and thank you. It's always nice to hear some positive words from one of our allies about our efforts.:up:

I also recomend this movie about our combat capabilities:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_E77fpy3WM
There should be some Iraq/Afghanistan footage in there to.

We stand and bleed with you in combat.

[nikimcbee]

I salute, and thank you. It's always nice to hear some positive words from one of our allies about our efforts.:up:

I also recomend this movie about our combat capabilities:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_E77fpy3WM
There should be some Iraq/Afghanistan footage in there to.

We stand and bleed with you in combat.

That was a neat video.:up: Thank-you. It makes me mad, whenever I hear people joke about Poland's performance in WW2 in 1939. I've been reading about the Polish Air Force. You guys put up quite a fight. I admire your collective spirit and bravery.:up:

[Grom]

It makes me mad, whenever I hear people joke about Poland's performance in WW2 in 1939.
People are just people, they were talking, are talking, and will talking. Nothing to pay attention at. I am proud to be Polish, proud of Poles during WW2 and their heroism.

[Tasman]

Poland as a State exist from X century. We beat Teutons in the bigest medieval battle (battle of tannenberg 1410); next Republic of Poland was one of the bigest country in the Europe - from Baltic Sea to Black Sea; in 1683 we saved a Europe from a Mussulmen when we stopped Turkey troops in battle of Vienna; in 1791 we resolved first constitution in Europe; after betrayal we lost independence and we fought next to Napoleon about freedom; after 123 years we back as free and in 1919 we stopped the march of Bolsheviks when communisten tried remove capital of communism from Moscow to Berlin; in II WW Polish soldiers fought on all of the fronts - do you know haw many Polish soldiers participated in parade of victory in Moscow and London? Prize for us fought was almost 45 years of communism; next we overthrow this patologic system and now we can say: we help to join Europe.
What we should do more for others respect? What we should do more for Europe yet?

[KrvKpt. Falke]

next Republic of Poland was one of the bigest country in the Europe - from Baltic Sea to Black Sea

It wasnt Republic of Poland but Polish-Lithuanian Union: a two countries (kingdoms) ruled by one king. ;)

What we should do more for others respect? What we should do more for Europe yet?

Get rid of twin brothers :p

[Kaleu_Mihoo]

What we should do more for Europe yet?

Don't ask what what we should do for Europe, ask what Europe can do for us...

[Rose]

I admire the heroism of the Polish during WWII. They faught bravely in '39, but were beaten back by two much more advanced armies. I greatly respect them for their roles AFTER the fall of Poland as well -- at Warsaw in '44, on D-Day landing with the British, and the Poles who flew from the UK over France in '44 and '45.

[Kaleu_Mihoo]

It's really nice to see there are people with so much knowledge about our military history here around. Gents, share your knowledge with others in your countries, because these facts are little known in the general public. Thank you!

[Polak]

Once again, I am grateful for all the kind words. It’s very nice for me as a Pole that you two gents know something about our history. I believe that history for Poles is a very touchy subject since it has treated us very unfair. Our efforts are rarely noted, and if people mention polish war efforts they usually talk about Polish cavalry attacks against tanks, which are outright propaganda.

People rarely talk about how the Poles saved Europe from a ottoman invasion at Vienna, or how we stopped the Bolshevik expansion in the 1920’s. I think that Americans and the French should at least know something about this since you participated in this war, and made a Polish victory possible. Poles and Americans actually share a lot of common history, the American cavalry was originally created by a polish general and Poland aided the States countless times, as did the States do in return.

An other very touchy subject for us is WW2, we often meet with stereotypes such as the earlier mentioned cavalry attacks or how we got blitzed by the Germans.
The facts are that Poland had a very big army before the war, and our technology was far superior to the Soviet one, and at some areas it was even far superior to German technology, once again no one knows about this. No one knows about the Polish medium bomber £o¶, which was the most modern medium bomber at the time, instead everyone talk about how the polish air force got destroyed on the ground.

Polish antitank weapons are also never mentioned, they too where state of the art equipment when the war broke out. The Germans actually used technology from captured polish weapons in their machineguns, the technology is still used today in the famous H&K MP5. Poles also brought a lot of technology to England during the war, we had some great solutions for bombing-bay doors and we had the revolutionary bombsights that where then adapted by all allied air fleets.

Polish efforts in breaking the Enigma code are always overseen, people think that the English broke the enigma code, but it was actually the Poles. The polish intelligence service already hade the code for the tree-rotor enigma before the war.

“When the polish general staff was working for a plan against a possible German attack or a possible Soviet attack the polish generals asked field marshal Józef Pi³sudski, why they are not working on a plan against a joint German-Soviet attack.
Pi³sudski replied that it would be a waste of his soldiers, and that he would expect only the general staff to fight with their sabers at the Saxon palace(General HQ) against the attackers.”

Field marshal Józef Pi³sudski was more than right in his statement, it would be a tremendous waste of his soldiers. Fortunately for him, he did not live long enough to see WW2. Poland did not have a chance against both the Germans and the Soviets, a two front war, alone against those two countries was impossible.

I am sorry if you find me to be bragging about my country, but most Poles are tiered off when they and their efforts are being ignored.
The Germans are better of than we today, and they lost the war… A polish delegation was not even invited to the victory days in Moscow two years back.
Finally what I am aiming at, is that when we hear people like you say something positive about our efforts, we get really moved. I am sure that you would be welcomed in every home in Poland for such statements. You are most certainly welcomed in my house at anytime, wodka and food is all on me.



/Polak

[Rose]

Poland aided the States countless times

Even in the American Revolution: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tadeusz_Ko%C5%9Bciuszko

technology was far superior to the Soviet one, and at some areas it was even far superior to German technology, once again no one knows about this.

I actually thought that the Polish were technologically behind (like the French and Americans at the beginning), but I guess I was wrong. I DID know that they had (almost) the same amount of men as the Germans, but that their lines were spread so thin because of the length of the Polish border, so the Germans slipped and pushed through the openings.

I also learned that the Polish air force was greatly damaged on the ground, but that the remaining planes destroyed or damaged 500 Luftwaffe planes. Amazing. I got much of my information out of a book called the Atlas of WWII and another book called simply World War Two.

This is a good page (I know, it's Wikipedia, but I'm lazy and I like Wikipedia): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_contribution_to_WWII

wodka ... is all on me.

Hmmm, that's an enticing offer. I'll let you know if I'm ever in Poland :D

[nikimcbee]

The closest I've been to Poland, was the Polish part of Chicago. That was an interesting experience (not in a good way:shifty: )

[Grom]

The closest I've been to Poland, was the Polish part of Chicago. That was an interesting experience (not in a good way:shifty: )
You can alway meet good and bad people. Doesnt matter what nationality they have. I used to say about war: not every polish guy was good, and not every german guy was bad.

[Polak]

I apologize for not giving any sources to my statements, now I realize that it can be hard to believe me when I introduce so much different historic knowledge. If anyone is interested in further reading and in getting to know a different approach to polish war efforts in WW2, I recommend the following web pages:
http://www.ww2.pl/
http://www.polandinexile.com/index.html

You will find loads of information and a lot of myths will be busted, such as the polish air force being destroyed on the ground.
The first web page is very credible since it is administrated by the Polish government. Both web pages provide very credible sources, such as state archives and likewise.

I have spent my share of time in western countries and I’ve read many “western” history books. Unfortunately they provide a very wrong picture of Poland and WW2.
I believe that this is mostly caused by the fact that we where enemies throughout the cold war, and we had the iron curtain dividing us. And why should two enemies create a good historical picture of each other?:D

The natural thing is to believe your own sources and your own history books, so history as a discussion topic is a great conflict starter. I personally believe that an opened mind is needed when approaching history, I can clearly see that you guys have an opened mind.:up:

[mariuszj1939]

some of helicopers just arrived from Iraq mission (see condition :o )
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/6967/dscf8576ax8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/1357/dscf8580hg2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/7506/dscf8582rq5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/8389/dscf8592li5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/4561/dscf8602xl2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/7103/dscf8609ly6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Rose]

The closest I've been to Poland, was the Polish part of Chicago. That was an interesting experience (not in a good way:shifty: )

Same here! :rotfl: (I used to live in Chi-town)

Thanks for those links, Polak, the sites are very informative.

An interesting side-note is that my grandfather volunteered for the Army intelligence service during the Korean War, and the recruits had to learn a "Communist" language (so they could listen in on radio transmissions) -- my grandfather chose Polish, so throughout the war, he listened to Polish radio transmissions. He told me the most exciting transmission he listened to was when two Polish fighter pilots were flying a patrol over Poland, and one of them said to the other, "I'm going West, I can't take it here any longer," and the other said something like, "no, you can't, what about your wife and kids?" and the other one said, "I'm going," and he escaped the Soviet Union. :huh:

*Edit*: The only line in my 10th grade US History book about Poland during the war is, "...the German armies quickly subdued Poland..." It says nothing about their hard and brave fighting. Oh well, what do you expect it's a US history book.

[KrvKpt. Falke]

*Edit*: The only line in my 10th grade US History book about Poland during the war is, "...the German armies quickly subdued Poland..." It says nothing about their hard and brave fighting. Oh well, what do you expect it's a US history book.

Here in Poland we study Polish history AND world history (i think its not only in Poland like that but in most european countries). When i was, err.. younger than today [ ;) ] those two subjects were equal, but today "weird" thing are happenning here in Poland (maybe youve heard something, who rules here and how...) and Polish history in schools is in the first place.
But! i was going to ask if there is no world history in american schools?

[Rose]

*Edit*: The only line in my 10th grade US History book about Poland during the war is, "...the German armies quickly subdued Poland..." It says nothing about their hard and brave fighting. Oh well, what do you expect it's a US history book.

Here in Poland we study Polish history AND world history (i think its not only in Poland like that but in most european countries). When i was, err.. younger than today [ ;) ] those two subjects were equal, but today "weird" thing are happenning here in Poland (maybe youve heard something, who rules here and how...) and Polish history in schools is in the first place.
But! i was going to ask if there is no world history in american schools?

We hold World History and US History as equal subjects as well (I can't say for the public school system -- I go to a private school were the school makes the rules, not the country). Each year, we switch off between the two. Last year, when I was 14/15 yrs old, we learned World History, so this year (15/16) we did US History. Next year, we have a choice between AP US History and AP European history (AP means a university-level course in high school). I am going to take AP Euro because I find European history fascinating.

No, I do not know who rules Poland now. What do you mean when you say that?

[nikimcbee]

some of helicopers just arrived from Iraq mission (see condition :o )
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/6967/dscf8576ax8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/1357/dscf8580hg2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
[/URL]
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/8389/dscf8592li5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/4561/dscf8602xl2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
[URL="http://imageshack.us"]

My favorite helicopter:rock:

[KrvKpt. Falke]

No, I do not know who rules Poland now. What do you mean when you say that?
Poland is ruled by strongly conservative party "Law & Justice" founded by our current president Lech Kaczynski and prime minister Jaroslaw Kaczynski.
I dont like talking too much about politics (especially polish politics ;) ) but - in my opinion - brothers Kaczynski and their political party way of ruling is xenophobic, homophobic, full of extreme views. For example: they try to teach children in potriotic way, but its seems like patriotism (good) and nationalism (bad) is the same thing for them...
But lets talk some more pleasant things ;)

[CCIP]

I'd also like to say sorry, if that's appropriate, on behalf of my country (USSR/Russia) :D I know we caused you guys a lot of trouble and there was a number of times (especially during the last Warsaw uprising) that Soviet reluctance to help was pretty suspect. That said, I don't know a Russian who doesn't appreciate Polish input into WWII (in fact thanks to a number of Polish movies, WWII Poles certainly had a rather heroic image in the old USSR) and I hope you guys don't hate us :dead:

[Grom]

I'd also like to say sorry, if that's appropriate, on behalf of my country (USSR/Russia)
You cant speak for whole Russian nation.
We should learn the lesson, pray above the gaves, and never turn back to that reality. It was not Russians themself. Ordinary citizen could not stand against the system built by communists or fascits ( in Germans case ). What have been done cant be undone. I hope that ordinary people do not share our silly politicians views. They are making us stand against each other. Still i cant understand them, why these people without hasitation can send thousands on death. Is that our human being nature to kill each other or hate each other just because stupid politicians are poisoning us with propaganda ?

[94cruiser]

I'm a Pole but came to the states in 7th grade.
In high school I studied US history and Government and World History, however as far as world history there was very much little about WW2 especially. Basically that war started in 39 when Germany attacked Poland, and then England joined in. Huge deal about Pearl Harbor, hm. There was no mentioning how the U-Boats almost destroyed England, and how with the help of Poles the Battle of England was won. This was in a suburban public high school. Oh yes, I remember mentioning of the Enigma and I had to fight with the teacher explaining how the Poles broke the code first... I remember in grade school in Poland we would study Polish history and world history, same thing with geography. I don't know how things are today, I work for a high school so I guess I should check out their history books. he he

[Abd_von_Mumit]

I haven't seen this thread before and now Ive read it all. And it almost made me vomit. :88)

I'm a Pole myself and I can't say I'm kind a particularly proud of it.

First, I don't think there is anything special about Polish history. Almost any Pole loves to repeat:
1. We SAVED EUROPE against Turkish Muslims! (bull****, it's Russian who did much more against Turkey throughout history; one battle never saves continents).
2. We won the BIGGEST battle. So what? I'm fat because I eat BIGGEST. That battle didn't bring us almost any good then, we could totally smash the enemy after it IF the king head his head at its place. We had many numerous friends who helped us. Maybe should the Lithuanians rather say that they saved Europe, or Russes, Checs, Moldavians or Smolenians?
3. We had the best pilots in the WWII! Haha. Yes. And no planes for them to fly, no airports to go off, no sufficient fuel supplies IN CASE of longlasting war against Russia and Germany. We lost that war, remember? £o¶ (and Mi¶) were the best bombers of their time, and none of have has ever reached any particular achievements. Ask people about Stuka and Spitfire. All know that names. Ask about £o¶. Ask about £o¶. Ask about £o¶...
4. We broke the Enigma code. Yes, we participated in breaking it in a large part, that's true. I'd even say we are as a nation particularly good in breaking anything we touch. ;)
7. History treated us unfair. - That is the very biggest lie I've ever seen. £e¿ to zaiste! (a, taki wtrêcik z Sienkiewicza, nie mog³em siê powstrzymaæ). Ask just ANY of our neighbours, if they were treated 'fair' by us. Ask Checs about Zaolzie. Ask Ukrainians about our occupation and final treason. Ask Lithuanians about... about almost whole our history. Ask Russians too... :D They celebrate victory against Poland till XXI century as their national holiday! We were hated and spitted at for centuries for being an unwelcome guest. If we look closer, we see 'history' treated us quite well, but finally we happened to be weaker than neighbours and they decided to eat us for supper. Just as we would do, if we ever could.
8. We had the first constitution in Europe. How long did it last before erasing Poland off the map? :D Did it bring any real change in Europe? Did it bring at leat one litle new idea others would pick? Did it save Poland or did it save at least 1 human life?
Forgot the rest, like "we defeated communism", "we saved Europe in 1920", "we...", "we...", "weee".

Ask for "them" at least once. :hmm: What did we give the world? Rennesainse? Did we fill it with our technical or scientifical achievements? Like maybe 50-100 Nobel Prizes? Did we produce the best literature of the..? Maybe just comics..? No.. Or, did we build something really big, like idea of democracy or human rights or uniting Europe, or, say, introdicing ever lasting peace? No, we haven't achieved any of these. European civilisation has earned more from Chinese than from Poles.

But, for this little moment, let's assume that Polish are truly unique (that's the way almost any Pole thinks it is). Matthew Ridley wrote in "The Origins of Virtue": "there is nothing special in being special. In fact just anything IS special just because it's not like any other thing, that is itself special too". The very idea of being is special itself, I'd say. Even if we are special because we speak Polish and the rest doesn't (the Germans cannot speak at all - Polish word for 'German', Niemiec, means 'mute, dumb', quite offensive I'd say), it doesn't change anything. Italians and French are special too (English and Americans are not, as almost anybody can speak English). And noone cares.

So let's stop mourning our history and just start to live free lives. Let's earn money, let's have sex or let's play games, let the present and the future is our concern, not past. The past was sometimes glorious, sometimes shameful, but it WAS, and we ARE.

No offense to anyone. Remember I'm a Pole too. The above is just an opinion, of the kind you discuss when having a drink. Just wanted to spread some cold water on the pro-Polish enthusiasm here. :) It's nice people abroad remember Polish damn good pilots, but that doesn't mean we must instantly tell them all about our national complexes. ;)


PS. And it's not me nor you who won the damn Battle of Tannenberg, so why be proud of it? :arrgh!:

[Grom]

No offense to anyone. Remember I'm a Pole too. The above is just an opinion, of the kind you discuss when having a drink. Just wanted to spread some cold water on the pro-Polish enthusiasm here. :) It's nice people abroad remember Polish damn good pilots, but that doesn't mean we must instantly tell them all about our national complexes. ;)
No offense to you. But i have not noticed anybody been pro-Polish, or feel special because been Polish ? I dont really see Your point, to be honest. I am Polish too, living abroad, discovering history of Polish sailors. Been on grave of cmdr.B.Krawczyk (if you know who was that). Finally i am submarines warefare of WW2 lover - we call such guys "shiplover". Not submarines simulator games lover, if You feel the difference. You might learn history from book if You red one. I am the one who learn it from archives and is able to write the book about history for guys like yourself. Probably i could say much more about history of polish navy during the war and its dark secrets than you can imagine. This tread is not about Poles been special, at least i havent got such feelings. Poles abroad feel stronger their Polish - been than those who lives in Poland. But steel is not feeling been special. And dont forget about these few milions Poles lost their lifes because they were "not special" Germans or were not addicted communists like many Russians. Many of them have died so you can write such a things today and can live in free country.

So your opinion have been noticed, however for the next time please stick to subject of discussion.Thx

[XXi]

I'd also like to say sorry, if that's appropriate, on behalf of my country (USSR/Russia) :D I know we caused you guys a lot of trouble and there was a number of times (especially during the last Warsaw uprising) that Soviet reluctance to help was pretty suspect. That said, I don't know a Russian who doesn't appreciate Polish input into WWII (in fact thanks to a number of Polish movies, WWII Poles certainly had a rather heroic image in the old USSR) and I hope you guys don't hate us :dead:

Personally, I must say that there was a lot of problems throughout the history between our countries. However, I DO distinguish between the rulers and policy of the country AND the people.
In this certain part of history, I must say that Russians were among the greatest victims of the communism so blaming the Russians in general for Lenin`s or Stalin`s policy wouldn`t make much sense - the Russsians were victims of that policy in much greater degree, and for much longer time, than Poles.
So no hate between us, mate :)

[Abd_von_Mumit]

No offense to anyone. Remember I'm a Pole too. The above is just an opinion, of the kind you discuss when having a drink. Just wanted to spread some cold water on the pro-Polish enthusiasm here. :) It's nice people abroad remember Polish damn good pilots, but that doesn't mean we must instantly tell them all about our national complexes. ;)
No offense to you. But i have not noticed anybody been pro-Polish, or feel special because been Polish ? I dont really see Your point, to be honest. I am Polish too, living abroad, discovering history of Polish sailors. Been on grave of cmdr.B.Krawczyk (if you know who was that). Finally i am submarines warefare of WW2 lover - we call such guys "shiplover". Not submarines simulator games lover, if You feel the difference. You might learn history from book if You red one. I am the one who learn it from archives and is able to write the book about history for guys like yourself. Probably i could say much more about history of polish navy during the war and its dark secrets than you can imagine. This tread is not about Poles been special, at least i havent got such feelings. Poles abroad feel stronger their Polish - been than those who lives in Poland. But steel is not feeling been special. And dont forget about these few milions Poles lost their lifes because they were "not special" Germans or were not addicted communists like many Russians. Many of them have died so you can write such a things today and can live in free country.

So your opinion have been noticed, however for the next time please stick to subject of discussion.Thx
My post commented, as you noticed, the "Poles being special" part of the thread. Please do not link this to any kind or flavour of -ism, nor nazism, nor communism, as it's not relevant to what I said above. :)

If you feel offended, I'm sorry, as it wasn't my intention to offend anybody. But I'm not sorry about any of my opinions expressed above, as there is nothing to be sorry about sharing one's opinions. :)

PS. And I read books, at least remember reading a few. ;)

[Grom]

And I read books, at least remember reading a few. ;)
Thats great. One day maybe you buy mine and become my customer/reader ;)

[Kaleu_Mihoo]

Wiesz Abd_von_Mumit, zmusilem sie do przeczytania twoich przemyslen i szczerze powiedziawszy takiego skondensowanego byczego g@@na nie czytalem juz dawno...zarabiaj pieniadze i p@@@@@ kogo chcesz, moze kiedys zrozumiesz o czym pisze Grom...A moze po prostu w kraju obecnie modna jest postawa "z dnia na dzien, byle dalej od jakichkolwiek wartosci, historii i tradycji"?

nie pozdrawiam

[Grom]

Panowie tylko spokojnie.
Nie ma sie co emocjonowac.
Kazdy ma prawo do wlasnego zdania.

Ja takze nie zgadzam sie z Abd von Mumit, ale podyskutowac nalezy w spokoju. Glupio bedzie wygladac na miedzynarodowym forum, zeby sie Polacy miedzy soba klocili. Nie zapominajcie, ze tutaj zaglada bardzo duzo nie tylko uzytkownikow forum, ale przede wszystkim gosci.

[Kaleu_Mihoo]

Racja, przepraszam, z lekka mi cisnienie skoczylo.

[Grom]

Racja, przepraszam, z lekka mi cisnienie skoczylo.
Luzik Kaleu Mihoo doskonale Cię rozumiem.

[Abd_von_Mumit]

Je¶liby nam siê mia³a dyskusja rozwin±æ, to proponujê w osobnym w±tku, jako ¿e ten by³ oryginalnie po angielsku i by³oby niego¶cinnie zalewaæ go polszczyzn±, poza tym to by³oby ju¿ mniej na temat, bo pewnie by¶my trochê pomeandrowali. :)

Dyskutowaæ póki co nie ma o czym, bo kontropinii nie widzia³em, ale jedno skomentujê - to o "warto¶ciach, historii, tradycji".

Ad 1. Polska nie wnios³a do ogólnoeuropejskiego obiegu ¿adnych warto¶ci uznawanych obecnie za 'elementarne', wnosi³y je za to Francja, W³ochy czy Wielka Brytania (o¶wiecenie, renesans, zmiany przyniesione przez rewolucjê przemys³ow±, prawa i wolno¶ci cz³owieka) czy tak powszechnie w Polsce znienawidzona my¶l lewicowa.

Ad 2. Historia nie jest pasmem sukcesów i zwyciêstw. Nie jest te¿ ci±gem zdarzeñ bêd±cych wy³±cznie powodem do dumy. Jak niemal ka¿dy kraj na ¶wiecie, mamy na koncie rzeczy, których mo¿na siê wstydziæ. Dawid Warszawski powiedzia³ kiedy¶: "Je¶li chce siê byæ dumnym z bycia cz³onkiem narodu, nie mo¿na wybraæ sobie tylko chwalebnego wycinka z jego spu¶cizny, trzeba zaakceptowaæ j± w ca³o¶ci, ³±cznie z tym co wstydliwe albo haniebne. Dopiero wtedy mo¿na z podniesion± g³ow± prawdziwie powiedzieæ: 'jestem dumny z bycia ...' ". Zgadzam siê z nim w pe³ni. Nie mam zapêdów do przypisywania sobie chwa³y lub hañby za czyny przodków, na które nie mia³em wszak ¿adnego wp³ywu, wiem jednak, ¿e gdybym chcia³ hodowaæ w sobie dumê z bycia Polakiem, próbowa³bym to robiæ ¶wiadomie, nie wyrzucaj±c z pamiêci drobiazgów, do których "g³upio siê przyznaæ". Gloryfikowanie przesz³o¶ci narodu, które uprawia siê u nas od wczesnej podstawówki, w tym przypisywanie win za wszystkie nieszczê¶cia ca³emu ¶wiatu tylko nie nam samym, uwa¿am za fa³szowanie historii - a fa³sz jest fa³szem bez wzglêdu na to, z jak± intencj± go uskuteczniamy.

Ad 3. Tradycja? Jak kto¶ m±dry napisa³ (ale naprawdê nie pamiêtam nazwiska, zdaje mi siê jednak, ¿e Polak): "Trzy s± powody, dla których upadaj± imperia: religia, tradycja, autorytety". Mam du¿± sympatiê do tradycji, ale nigdy za cenê hipokryzji czy samozak³amania. Los tradycji jest mi jednak do¶æ obojêtny, bo jako du¿y ch³opiec zdo³alem ju¿ zrozumieæ, ¿e wszystko siê zmienia i nie ma nic sta³ego w ¶wiecie cz³owieka (na szczê¶cie), dlatego je¶li mam do wyboru przyj±æ j± jako klapki na oczy albo odrzuciæ, bez wahania robiê to drugie. Je¶li za¶ tradycja nie k³óci siê ze zdrowym rozs±dkiem lub przyzwoito¶ci±, nie wymaga ode mnie pó³prawd ani kompromisów, witam j± z szeroko rozwartymi ramionami.

Proponujê wiêc tradycyjne, rzymskie stukniêcie siê kielichami, coby nam duchy do g³owy nie pow³azi³y i nie przycmi³y rozs±dku! :|\\ :()1:
Prosiłem Cię byś zmienił kodowanie znaków z windows na iso, lub przestał używać polskich znaków bo bardzo krzaczy i wyskakują dziwactwa w tekście. Bądź tak miły i wyedytuj swój post. Z góry dziękuję. moderator

[XXi]

Je¶liby nam siê mia³a dyskusja rozwin±æ, to proponujê w osobnym w±tku, jako ¿e ten by³ oryginalnie po angielsku i by³oby niego¶cinnie zalewaæ go polszczyzn±, poza tym to by³oby ju¿ mniej na temat, bo pewnie by¶my trochê pomeandrowali. :)

Słusznie, bo robi się straszny offtop, w dodatku mało zrozumiały dla gości, że tak powiem.

Dyskutowaæ póki co nie ma o czym, bo kontropinii nie widzia³em, ale jedno skomentujê - to o "warto¶ciach, historii, tradycji".

Ad 1. Polska nie wnios³a do ogólnoeuropejskiego obiegu ¿adnych warto¶ci uznawanych obecnie za 'elementarne', wnosi³y je za to Francja, W³ochy czy Wielka Brytania (o¶wiecenie, renesans, zmiany przyniesione przez rewolucjê przemys³ow±, prawa i wolno¶ci cz³owieka) czy tak powszechnie w Polsce znienawidzona my¶l lewicowa.

No i z tym nijak zgodzić się nie mogę. Po pierwsze i może najważniejsze, do nas renesans dotarł. Po drugie i nie mniej ważne, to u nas istniało coś takiego jak demokracja szlachecka i tradycja tolerancji religijnej w czasach, gdy Francja, Włochy czy Wielka Brytania nie mówiąc o paru innych krajach bawiła się w wojny religijne.
To nie my wreszcie wymyśliliśmy i zastosowaliśmy w praktyce absolutyzm - choć jak uczy historia to akurat nastąpiło trochę na nasze nieszczęście.
Nie dorzuciliśmy się w godny uwagi sposób także do idei krucjat.
Jeśli chodzi o myśl lewicową to znów jest to temat na osobną dyskusję i proponuję nie mieszać wszystkiego ze wszystkim.


Ad 2. Historia nie jest pasmem sukcesów i zwyciêstw. Nie jest te¿ ci±gem zdarzeñ bêd±cych wy³±cznie powodem do dumy. Jak niemal ka¿dy kraj na ¶wiecie, mamy na koncie rzeczy, których mo¿na siê wstydziæ. Dawid Warszawski powiedzia³ kiedy¶: "Je¶li chce siê byæ dumnym z bycia cz³onkiem narodu, nie mo¿na wybraæ sobie tylko chwalebnego wycinka z jego spu¶cizny, trzeba zaakceptowaæ j± w ca³o¶ci, ³±cznie z tym co wstydliwe albo haniebne. Dopiero wtedy mo¿na z podniesion± g³ow± prawdziwie powiedzieæ: 'jestem dumny z bycia ...' ". Zgadzam siê z nim w pe³ni. Nie mam zapêdów do przypisywania sobie chwa³y lub hañby za czyny przodków, na które nie mia³em wszak ¿adnego wp³ywu, wiem jednak, ¿e gdybym chcia³ hodowaæ w sobie dumê z bycia Polakiem, próbowa³bym to robiæ ¶wiadomie, nie wyrzucaj±c z pamiêci drobiazgów, do których "g³upio siê przyznaæ". Gloryfikowanie przesz³o¶ci narodu, które uprawia siê u nas od wczesnej podstawówki, w tym przypisywanie win za wszystkie nieszczê¶cia ca³emu ¶wiatu tylko nie nam samym, uwa¿am za fa³szowanie historii - a fa³sz jest fa³szem bez wzglêdu na to, z jak± intencj± go uskuteczniamy.

Zgadzam się!
I właśnie dlatego uważam że jeśli jako Polak mogę być z czegoś dumny, to przede wszystkim z tradycji demokracji i tolerancji czasów I Rzeczypospolitej. Mogę być dumny z Chopina.

Mogę być dumny też z tego, że tylko Polakom udało się wziąć do niewoli cara, choć to akurat jest drobiazg.
Przede wszystkim jednak, jeśli mówimy już o historii bez upiększeń:
jak w historii niemal każdego narodu, w Polsce zdarzały się rzeczy zawstydzające. Za wielki błąd i porażkę uważam np. stopniowe wykształcanie się idei państwa narodowego i tworzenie zbitki Polak - katolik na przełomie XIX i XX w, zastępowanie tradycji wielonarodowej Rzeczypospolitej ideą czystego etnicznie państwa :/
Z drugiej jednak strony - to nie Polacy wymyślili obozy koncentracyjne, to nie Polacy wymyślili masowy terror w imię lepszego jutra, to nie Polacy doszli do wniosku że obcych należy nie tylko wypędzić, ale najlepiej w ogóle zabić. To nie Polacy prowadzili brudne wojny kolonialne i jeszcze parę mało zabawnych rzeczy.


Ad 3. Tradycja? Jak kto¶ m±dry napisa³ (ale naprawdê nie pamiêtam nazwiska, zdaje mi siê jednak, ¿e Polak): "Trzy s± powody, dla których upadaj± imperia: religia, tradycja, autorytety". Mam du¿± sympatiê do tradycji, ale nigdy za cenê hipokryzji czy samozak³amania. Los tradycji jest mi jednak do¶æ obojêtny, bo jako du¿y ch³opiec zdo³alem ju¿ zrozumieæ, ¿e wszystko siê zmienia i nie ma nic sta³ego w ¶wiecie cz³owieka (na szczê¶cie), dlatego je¶li mam do wyboru przyj±æ j± jako klapki na oczy albo odrzuciæ, bez wahania robiê to drugie. Je¶li za¶ tradycja nie k³óci siê ze zdrowym rozs±dkiem lub przyzwoito¶ci±, nie wymaga ode mnie pó³prawd ani kompromisów, witam j± z szeroko rozwartymi ramionami.

Hmmm... zdanie eleganckie, ładnie brzmiące, co najmniej wątpliwej wartości. Z tą mądrością, to ja bym na wszelki wypadek uważał.
Co prawda ja bym raczej mówił o kwestii makrozarządzania, efektywności administracji czy czynnikach militarnych i ekonomicznych, no ale polemika zakłada odniesienie się do konkretnego sformułowania.

Na pewno z punktu widzenia pomyślnego funkcjonowania państwa bardzo złym rozwiązaniem jest konserwatyzm i niechęć do wprowadzania reform.
Tutaj dobrym przykładem, wręcz podręcznikowym, jest Sparta. Surowe prawa powodowały ciągłe zmniejszanie się liczby obywateli i w gruncie rzeczy podkopywały stabilność państwa a gdy spartiaci zdali sobie sprawę że źle się dzieje, byli w stanie jedynie zaostrzyć przepisy zamiast wprowadzić fundamentalne zmiany. Efektem był szybki i żałosny upadek państwa.
Z drugiej strony, nie mniejszym zagrożeniem jest przekonanie o własnej doskonałości i w związku z tym - brak planowania strategicznego, jeśli tak można powiedzieć. Tutaj z kolei dobrym przykładem może być Państwo Środka: przekonanie o własnej wyższości i wyjątkowości doprowadziło do niemal tysiącletniej stagnacji w czasie któej państwo, dysponujące przez cały czas większymi zasobami niż Europa ( ziemia, ludność, ludność WYKSZTAŁCONA, produkcja przemysłowa, dostępność surowców, dóbr luksusowych, możliwości handlu, dobra eksportowe, myśl technologiczna ) sromotnie przegrało wyścig o wpływy i miejsce pod Słońcem ze znacznie słabszymi początkowo państwami (państwa europejskie, a od początku XX w. Japonia która 50 lat wcześniej była w podobnym położeniu co Chiny ).

Religia? Po pierwsze, religie są różne i mimo wszystko warunkują różne postawy. Żeby nie rozkręcać za bardzo: z jakiegoś powodu judaizm nie podbił świata, z jakiegoś powodu buddyzm nie był narzucany z bronią w ręku, z jakiegoś powodu islam podbił w krótkim czasie znaczne obszary globu. Religia, tak prawdę mówiąc, była jednym z czynników warunkujących przetrwanie Żydów od starożytności.
Jeszcze jeśli chodzi o konserwatyzm: wszystko ładnie, pięknie, ale z drugiej strony czasem to trzymanie się pewnych określonych wzorców pozwalało przetrwać państwu i kulturze. Tutaj ciekawy może być przykład Egiptu który mimu kilku poważnych kryzysów przetrwał trzy tysiące lat, po drodze kilkakrotnie zdobywając status mocarstwa. Można też mimo wszystko wymienić przykład Bizancjum, państwa przez długi czas bardzo silnego i żywotnego które upadło wskutek ciągłej ekspansji militarnej sąsiadów - a mimo to przetrwało niemal tysiąc lat.

A z drugiej strony, chichot historii: największe mocarstwo które nie uznawało ani religii, ani tradycji czyli ZSRR zaliczyło jeden z szybszych upadków w historii świata.

Co za tym idzie zdanie przytoczone na początku uważam za błędne.
Jesli zaś chodzi o autorytety - z tym jest pewien problem, bo faktycznie z autorytetami bywają straszne problemy. Z drugiej strony ludzie mają ciekawą cehcę: jeśli odrzucą autorytety to najczęściej tylko i wyłącznie po to, by natychmiast znaleźć sobie nowe, którym wierzą. Najczęściej - ślepo.
Ale to znowu aż prosi się o dłuższą dyskujsę.



Proponujê wiêc tradycyjne, rzymskie stukniêcie siê kielichami, coby nam duchy do g³owy nie pow³azi³y i nie przycmi³y rozs±dku! :|\\ :()1:

A z tym to się nawet chętnie zgodzę :arrgh!:

[Abd_von_Mumit]

Prosi³em Ciê by¶ zmieni³ kodowanie znaków z windows na iso, lub przesta³ u¿ywaæ polskich znaków bo bardzo krzaczy i wyskakuj± dziwactwa w tek¶cie. B±d¼ tak mi³y i wyedytuj swój post. Z góry dziêkujê. moderator
:88) Nigdzie nie widzialem takiej prosby i teraz tez nie moge znalezc. Nie mam pojecia, gdzie zmienic to kodowanie, u mnie zreszta wyswietla sie poprawnie i bez krzakow. Nie mam tez pojecia, jak zedytowac post, by zmienic mu kodowanie.


@XXI: No to chlup, panie dziekju!

[Grom]

:88) Nigdzie nie widzialem takiej prosby i teraz tez nie moge znalezc. Nie mam pojecia, gdzie zmienic to kodowanie, u mnie zreszta wyswietla sie poprawnie i bez krzakow. Nie mam tez pojecia, jak zedytowac post, by zmienic mu kodowanie.


@XXI: No to chlup, panie dziekju!
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=128573

Zgoda nastala bardzo mnie to cieszy.

[Kapitan_Phillips]

Just thought I'd offer my thanks to Poland too. We couldn't have done it without you, and it was an honour to come to a friends aid :up:

I'll always remember the bravery of the Polish during Operation Market Garden :yep: