Where is this world heading to?

[maerean_m]

I was reading (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sims) that the Electronic Arts' Sims 2 franchise sold 70 million copies so far. Also Ubisoft's Petz product line (Catz, Dogz, Horsez) collectively sold 3.5 million units.

So, when GRAW2 sales only 1 million copies and Silent Hunter 4 only a couple hundred thousands, WHY should anybody be bothered to make Silent Hunter 5?

Everybody complains about what a crappy game Silent Hunter 4 is and that SH4 is just a big collection of bugs and how they want back the $50 spent on the game. Nobody just enjoys the game. Everybody should join the navy and see what it means to be a captive of Time Compression =1 and not being able to blow the ships you spot (WW2 is kinda over).

You can imagine that making a Silent Hunter is not a walk in the park (as it is when making Sims 2).

WHY should there be a Silent Hunter 5 (Silent Hunter must reach the 230 version number (Silent Hunter 230) to have the same sales as Sims 2)? Ubisoft should stop all projects and start making Sims 2 clones and make BIIIG bucks. 2 years from now you'll only find Sims 2 clones in the shops. I wish everybody to enjoy their future copy of Sims 2.

:damn:

[Mud]

If a programmer ( as you state in your profile ) of SH4 is giving up and think about the big bucks then we all gonna play The Sims.
And BTW not everybody is complaining but there are some valid concerns about the state of the game which is maybe related to the sales ?

Mud

[maerean_m]

If the sales hardly pay for 11 months of development, there will never be enough time to implement the features the designers (and you) dream of. It normally takes at least 2 years to make a great game. Other games (like WOW) take 5 years to create.

[TDK1044]

If the sales hardly pay for 11 months of development, there will never be enough time to implement the features the designers (and you) dream of. It normally takes at least 2 years to make a great game. Other games (like WOW) take 5 years to create.


I've tried to make the same point many times. There's not much money to be made from making a subsim because of the demographic such a sim attracts. Add to that the fact that SH4 was made on a ludicrous production schedule, and you start to understand just what a good job the Devs did with this game.

Some people don't seem to understand that if you're not given a realistic production schedule in the first place then you have to resort to patches in order to make the game good.

[Herr Kapitan]

If the sales hardly pay for 11 months of development, there will never be enough time to implement the features the designers (and you) dream of. It normally takes at least 2 years to make a great game. Other games (like WOW) take 5 years to create.

I've tried to make the same point many times. There's not much money to be made from making a subsim because of the demographic such a sim attracts. Add to that the fact that SH4 was made on a ludicrous production schedule, and you start to understand just what a good job the Devs did with this game.

Some people don't seem to understand that if you're not given a realistic production schedule in the first place then you have to resort to patches in order to make the game good.

Kudos for the Devs for doing a good job under pressure, but as for the people who put them under such duress, well:down::down::down::down:

[ZaPPPa]

Why would anyone buy a Sims clone? I wouldn't buy it if it wasn't at least as good as the original. That's more than five years of catching up to do against a company with nearly infinite assets.

After Doom came out, many companies jumped on the bandwagon and a huge number of FPS were released. Some succesful, many not. Same with Everquest. Now WoW dominates the MMORPG market and new unknown companies don't stand a chance making any good money. Sims2 dominates the life-sim market, so the market share that is still available for those markets is awfully small.

SH4 is already heading for mainstream. Ask yourself what got the biggest overhaul in this version and it is definitely the graphics engine. AI was hardly touched. Crew management got changed because the SH3 version was unworkable. The career got very little attention.. Look at an average (hardcore) sim and the screenshots that get released before the game goes gold. It's always action shots, never a campaign map or administrative screen.. Yup, SH is way more mainstream than you may think.

[GnarPow]

You guys did a good job thus far, Just dont throw the towel in yet.

Some of these guys on here are probably still sucking on their mommies nipples so I would take their opinions with a grain of salt. I've been playing computer games for over 20 years now and bugs is just part of it all. Just keep hard at work and forget what a couple of these jokers are saying.. You might notice that there is more posts from little bitches complaining than there is about people who really love this game... Thats because the latter is busy playing it and we dont have time to cry to mommy and daddy that our game isnt exactly the way we like it.

I myself get a bunch of CTDs everyday for no apparent reason (usually from going periscope to map) and all I do is just save more often and its not really a problem. Usually it just tells me I've been playing too long and its time to stop :p

As long as you dont stop at V1.2 and keep fine tuning a lot of the issues that are a problem you should be fine. The fact that you only sold 100,000 copies is because EVERY review out there made note of all of the bugs. If you guys get the game working correctly and send out a message to EVERY reviewer out there to review the game again than you should definately increase sales. But in the state of 1.1 and before you cant expect reviewers to give you guys a 10/10... I think with time and effort this game is definately a 10/10 ... as It stands right now I would give it a 8.5/10 and that is still pretty good.

Keep up the good work over there in Romania

GnarPow

[Sad Sailor]

:up: Why would anyone buy a Sims clone? I wouldn't buy it if it wasn't at least as good as the original. That's more than five years of catching up to do against a company with nearly infinite assets.

After Doom came out, many companies jumped on the bandwagon and a huge number of FPS were released. Some succesful, many not. Same with Everquest. Now WoW dominates the MMORPG market and new unknown companies don't stand a chance making any good money. Sims2 dominates the life-sim market, so the market share that is still available for those markets is awfully small.

SH4 is already heading for mainstream. Ask yourself what got the biggest overhaul in this version and it is definitely the graphics engine. AI was hardly touched. Crew management got changed because the SH3 version was unworkable. The career got very little attention.. Look at an average (hardcore) sim and the screenshots that get released before the game goes gold. It's always action shots, never a campaign map or administrative screen.. Yup, SH is way more mainstream than you may think.


I´ve played Silent Hunter 1, many years ago, I just love it, recently I was finishing playing Silent Hunter III , now I´m playing IV, many bugs, but great game. Although a good job trough the years to develop such a game with such an historical and realistic touch. :up:
So I think why always money have to come first, we pay the game, we enjoy the game and after all off this someone thinks that Sims 2 it´s somehow more interesting to the people and they all buy it. In reality not all the people like torpedoes but they like SIMS2, I like both but SH has the big chance to live almost FOREVER, like submarines.

"Apa trece petrele raman".
"The water passes, but the rocks will stand".

[ed3r]

Who buys these apparently "popular" games? I dont know a single soul who owns them.
The Silent Hunter series is just unique, I may be new to the game but its easy to see its unlike anything Ive played before, and frankly Im enjoying myself.

[SteamWake]

I dont know if programming the "Sims" was a piece of cake (shrug)

But as to the topic in general ... Some people just want to blow stuff up and not worry about the how and why.

[EAF274 Johan]

SH4 is already heading for mainstream. Ask yourself what got the biggest overhaul in this version and it is definitely the graphics engine. AI was hardly touched. Crew management got changed because the SH3 version was unworkable. The career got very little attention.
Actually I think that the career mode got a good deal of attention in SH4. There are many improvements over SH3: intro video's, animated briefings, missions during the patrol...

I am kind of hoping that, apart from making blockbusters or cashcows, developers/publishers also care to be represented in smaller market segments. It looks like Ubi is doing this for simulations (Il-2 series, Lock On, Silent Hunter). Who knows, maybe in 5 years all mainstream genres will have moved to consoles and simulations will be the only thing left for the pc.

[John Channing]

SH4 is already heading for mainstream. Ask yourself what got the biggest overhaul in this version and it is definitely the graphics engine. AI was hardly touched. Crew management got changed because the SH3 version was unworkable. The career got very little attention.
Actually I think that the career mode got a good deal of attention in SH4. There are many improvements over SH3: intro video's, animated briefings, missions during the patrol...

I am kind of hoping that, apart from making blockbusters or cashcows, developers/publishers also care to be represented in smaller market segments. It looks like Ubi is doing this for simulations (Il-2 series, Lock On, Silent Hunter). Who knows, maybe in 5 years all mainstream genres will have moved to consoles and simulations will be the only thing left for the pc.

Lock-on was dropped by UbiSoft due to poor sales caused by negative reviews and commentary by the flight-sim community.

Silent Hunter... well, read the first post here and draw your own conclusions.

IL-2 seem to be the exception to the rule. It has a strong, loyal, community of supporters that stayed with it, defended it and supported it through it's troublesome first years.

Something I see sadly lacking here.

JCC

[btaft]

IL-2 seem to be the exception to the rule. It has a strong, loyal, community of supporters that stayed with it, defended it and supported it through it's troublesome first years.


Falcon 4.0 and Grand Prix Legends are two other great examples. They are basically games that have been kept alive by there community support and modders.

I would be surprised to Ubisoft to publish another Silent Hunter title...the numbers are just not there. I was very surprised (though pleasantly so) to see them come out with SH4 following SH3.

If there is an SH5 it is likely one that is going to be produced commercially by a group of modders after Ubisoft abandons or sells the license. I think in general the future of hardcore/semi-hardcore sims lies (sadly) in the world of commnity supported download software (a-la GTR and Falcon 4.0). You will likely not see thist type of genre on the store shelves at Best Buy or Walmart but if there is enough support and contribution we may be lucky to download it from Battlefront or Matrixgames or a similar site.

Times have a changed........I'm getting old:D

[Scott Bruno]

I was reading (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sims) that the Electronic Arts' Sims 2 franchise sold 70 million copies so far. Also Ubisoft's Petz product line (Catz, Dogz, Horsez) collectively sold 3.5 million units.

So, when GRAW2 sales only 1 million copies and Silent Hunter 4 only a couple hundred thousands, WHY should anybody be bothered to make Silent Hunter 5?

Everybody complains about what a crappy game Silent Hunter 4 is and that SH4 is just a big collection of bugs and how they want back the $50 spent on the game. Nobody just enjoys the game. Everybody should join the navy and see what it means to be a captive of Time Compression =1 and not being able to blow the ships you spot (WW2 is kinda over).

You can imagine that making a Silent Hunter is not a walk in the park (as it is when making Sims 2).

WHY should there be a Silent Hunter 5 (Silent Hunter must reach the 230 version number (Silent Hunter 230) to have the same sales as Sims 2)? Ubisoft should stop all projects and start making Sims 2 clones and make BIIIG bucks. 2 years from now you'll only find Sims 2 clones in the shops. I wish everybody to enjoy their future copy of Sims 2.

:damn:

I promise you no real game is a "walk in the park" to make. The fact that something like the Sims looks cartoony and silly to the average hardcore sim fan doesn't have a heck of a lot to do with how "hard" it is to make.

As for why this franchise persists, it's entirely possible to make a little money from niche titles. You don't have to sell 5 million copies to succeed; you just have to take in a reasonable amount more in than it cost to make, market and distribute the thing. A game like this is never going to be a grand slam. But give it a short schedule, keep the team as small as you can, and you can get away with relying on your core fanbase plus some number of casual purchases to keep a series like this alive for at least a few iterations.

[fredbass]

Everybody complains about what a crappy game Silent Hunter 4 is and that SH4 is just a big collection of bugs and how they want back the $50 spent on the game. Nobody just enjoys the game.

Now that just isn't true. It's just a fact of nature that people will criticize and complain more than compliment so it is always going to be disceptively apparent that a larger amount of posts will come from that side of things. If there wasn't anything to complain about, then the amount of people frequenting this forum would surely be much less than it is now. :yep: See what I mean. :ping: :)

[ZaPPPa]

The fact that you only sold 100,000 copies is because EVERY review out there made note of all of the bugs. If you guys get the game working correctly and send out a message to EVERY reviewer out there to review the game again than you should definately increase sales.
I applaud the reviewers that have been harsh on SH4 because of the bugs. They do their job well and help the gaming community. I sincerely hope the number of bugs have hurt sales a lot. The worst thing that can happen to the gaming community is for poor games to sell well. 'The Sims' may sound like a dumb game to some people, but it was very well made and had hardly any bugs. The quality is about as high as it gets. If the Sims was released in the condition SH4 was released in, it wouldn't have sold nearly as well.
We can only hope UBI looks at the Sims as an example of how a game can be developed and released for any market, not just the mainstream one.

Niche markets will forever exist although the margins are small. The reason why niche games often come from Eastern Europe is because labor is cheap and it is a way for rich publishers to test the waters and see what kind of games sell well. They can also be used to develop solid engines to be used in other games (IL-2 engine is used in Theatre of War). The SH4 engine would be perfect for a new pirate game for example.

I believe SH is here to stay, however in a different format. I wouldn't be surprised if the next step is to overhaul the multi-player aspect and that the next version will contain either a convoy vs. sub campaign or even a persistent world.

[John Channing]

Anyone choosing to debate with the OP you might just want to have a look at his resume.

JCC

[U-Bones]

Everybody complains about what a crappy game Silent Hunter 4 is and that SH4 is just a big collection of bugs and how they want back the $50 spent on the game. Nobody just enjoys the game.
...
I wish everybody to enjoy their future copy of Sims 2.

:damn:

My gripes are because I like the game a LOT. My $50 was well spent, you can keep it ;)

Sadly though, the world is changing - and I am becoming a demographic that simply no longer matters. I appreciate that you catered to it as long as you have.

[John Channing]

"I sincerely hope the number of bugs have hurt sales a lot."

Well... I guess that's it.

I have now heard it all on Subsim.com.

JCC

[Scott Bruno]

Anyone choosing to debate with the OP you might just want to have a look at his resume.

JCC

I'm debating him and I invite you to look at mine :D

---

Anyway, the point being don't pack it in. I have some experience with working on a niche series and it's heartbreaking to watch some goofy thing sell 10x more copies than you do. It sucks, it's frustrating and it's not fair. But it wouldn't hurt so much if you didn't care, and as long as you care and as long as it keeps paying the bills then what the hell. What else are you going to do?

[ZaPPPa]

"I sincerely hope the number of bugs have hurt sales a lot."
I have now heard it all on Subsim.com.
You're welcome.

And I stand by what I said. This is a business world, not a social institution. Quality of games would plummet if reviewers would give everything a perfect 10/10 rating regardless of the number of bugs.

PS. I don't have a resume posted, but you can see the results of my software on national TV on Saturday and Sunday afternoons from early Spring to late Fall. :)

PPS. Maerran... Dude, unprofessional, don't vent in public.. Good thing UBI execs don't frequent these forums. Oh.. and give the guys at EA some respect.. Sims was a damn good, high quality game and surely you of all people should know it can't be easy to program such a big game with all the expansions and whatnot.

[tycho102]

Everybody should join the navy and see what it means to be a captive of Time Compression =1 and not being able to blow the ships you spot (WW2 is kinda over).
Been there, done that, have pictures.


Ubisoft should stop all projects and start making Sims 2 clones and make BIIIG bucks. 2 years from now you'll only find Sims 2 clones in the shops. I wish everybody to enjoy their future copy of Sims 2.
Dude, do you feel better? Get it all out of your system.
Don't hold back anything. http://tron-chaser.net/images1/ani_emotrant.gifhttp://tron-chaser.net/images1/ani_emotrant.gif
http://tron-chaser.net/images1/ani_evilmonkey.gifhttp://tron-chaser.net/images1/ani_aaah2.gifhttp://tron-chaser.net/images1/ani_flipout1.gifhttp://tron-chaser.net/images1/ani_flipout2.gifhttp://tron-chaser.net/images1/ani_zidanecombo.gif








edit: I would just like to add that I built the Hell out of houses in Sims 1 and 2. AutoCAD can stuff it right up the keister -- building houses in Sims has wasted weekends. I just wish I could blow them up and print them out on my color laser printer.

[swash]

I've never played the sims nor sims2, and don't plan to. So if that's where the game companies want to make big their money, then they won't be getting mine.

I always read reviews first before deciding to buy a game, or try out a demo if one is offered. If I read a game being too buggy, I wait until there are patches or buy something else if I'm really looking for a new game at the moment.

I like US WW2 subs and took the plunge with SH4 regardless.

Hopefully UBI is getting enough money from sales to make a profit and continue with pacthes or even an expansion set with more missions, more ships and additional features.

Some of the known issues have been annoying, but I'm happy with the game overall.

Until a game is harder to deal with than the installation he11 I went through with Windows 95, I'll work with it:rotfl:

[Herr Karl]

Until a game is harder to deal with than the installation he11 I went through with Windows 95, I'll work with it:rotfl:
You're running SH4 on Windows95™??? How? and Wow!

I wish I could run this game on 98SE!!!!

:yep:

[heartc]

The two postings at the beginning of this page are a disgrace to the subsim community.

Sorry maerean_m, if you indeed are one of the devs. I enjoy the game. Usually I'm no fanboy, I was one of the LOMAC haters for example (well, no crybaby though) but what is going on here on this board of this niche website subsim.com has been unheard of as of yet. This was a friendly board, with professional people. It is interesting to note that indeed the loudest, destructive and most inane complaints are done by the illiterate which saw a recent rise in numbers here. These are comprised of only two kinds of people: Spoiled 13 yo brats, and fools. Guess this is the price that comes with the excellent gfx you guys put into this game. ;) I will bet that a good number of "problems" also simply stem from that truth - kids and fools not understanding the game or how to run an operation system in a stable manner.
There were indeed quite a few examples already where this became blatantly obvious.

[U-Bones]

The two postings at the beginning of this page are a disgrace to the subsim community.

Sorry maerean_m, if you indeed are one of the devs. I enjoy the game. Usually I'm no fanboy, I was one of the LOMAC haters for example (well, no crybaby though) but what is going on here on this board of this niche website subsim.com has been unheard of as of yet. This was a friendly board, with professional people. It is interesting to note that indeed the loudest, destructive and most inane complaints are done by the illiterate which saw a recent rise in numbers here. These are comprised of only two kinds of people: Spoiled 13 yo brats, and fools. Guess this is the price that comes with the excellent gfx you guys put into this game. ;) I will bet that a good number of "problems" also simply stem from that truth - kids and fools not understanding the game or how to run an operation system in a stable manner.
There were indeed quite a few examples already where this became blatantly obvious.

Complaining, illiterate, spoiled brat fools, the lot of us, and probably responsible for most of the problems to boot.

A shining example of friendly and professional, that.

/sigh

[heartc]

Complaining, illiterate, spoiled brat fools, the lot of us, and probably responsible for most of the problems to boot.

A shining example of friendly and professional, that.

If you feel that shoe fits you then go with it.

And woud u not cal somenthig liek these ilitrat?

[ZaPPPa]

What the hell does 'illiterate' have to do with any of this anyway?

[geosub1978]

We have to admit that after the enormous success of SH3 the frustration on SH4 dev team was very big. It is now clear that the game was out a few months earlier than it should. Nevertheless, the point that the Dev's have reached so far by SH4 1.2 is good and by adding some modes the game is very well played.

BUT!!! Taking into consideration the collaterall of SH3 and the proof of SH4 that something, better can be done, I would expect SH5 RETOURN TO THE ATLANTIC in the summer of 2008...

[TDK1044]

Maybe this thread should have been titled "Abandon Hope All Ye Who Enter Here".

Look, Guys, once it was clear that Silent Hunter 4 was given a totally unrealistic production schedule, we subsimmers had two choices:

Choice 1: Purchase the game and support the one company producing subsims, in the hope that it will continue to do so, and in the knowledge that the project would not be finished at the time of release and would require serious patching.

Choice2: Don't buy SH4 because it's too buggy and because you wish to punish Ubisoft, and possibly let the Silent Hunter seies die right there.

Whatever you think about Ubisoft, if Silent Hunter 4 does not meet its projected sales revenue then Ubisoft will probably drop the series. Does anyone really think that another company will then rush in to produce a new subsim from scratch (at least two years work, more like three) with the probability being that they will make only a marginal profit, if that?

We need to support our team of Devs, and we need to hope that Ubisoft, for all their quirks, continue to support the Silent Hunter franchise.

[geosub1978]

Maybe this thread should have been titled "Abandon Hope All Ye Who Enter Here".

Look, Guys, once it was clear that Silent Hunter 4 was given a totally unrealistic production schedule, we subsimmers had two choices:

Choice 1: Purchase the game and support the one company producing subsims, in the hope that it will continue to do so, and in the knowledge that the project would not be finished at the time of release and would require serious patching.

Choice2: Don't buy SH4 because it's too buggy and because you wish to punish Ubisoft, and possibly let the Silent Hunter seies die right there.

Whatever you think about Ubisoft, if Silent Hunter 4 does not meet its projected sales revenue then Ubisoft will probably drop the series. Does anyone really think that another company will then rush in to produce a new subsim from scratch (at least two years work, more like three) with the probability being that they will make only a marginal profit, if that?

We need to support our team of Devs, and we need to hope that Ubisoft, for all their quirks, continue to support the Silent Hunter franchise.

All these are so obvious!!!:up: :up: . I hope there will be no need to discuss it anymore!

[Hitman]

Everybody complains about what a crappy game Silent Hunter 4 is and that SH4 is just a big collection of bugs and how they want back the $50 spent on the game. Nobody just enjoys the game.

No. I can count easily the small number of guys in this or the UBI forum ranting and complaining. Versus several thousands of copies sold, even AFTER much ranting and complaining by those few. The fact that ranters, moaners and inmatures yell louder and seek more attention due to their childish behaviour can't and shall not obscure a quieter majority of supporters of the SH series. When I bought SH1 many years ago (1996) I got a game that had some bugs and was stick to 256x time compression :o . But it was the finest and loveliest experience of my life. The game was good, but I would not even have noticed some bugs (F.e. escorts coming back to catch you if using time compression during an attack), had I not -years later- read about them in the internet. May of the moaners and yellers complaint about bugs they have not even noticed themselves. Sometimes moaning goes even down to using illegal software:x.

I'm starting to be really fed up of a minority of inmatures ruining these forums. Because the worse part is that what used to be a well-renowned community, is starting to be wrongly identified with a minority of newcomers that seek confrontation and destructive discussions. :down: I must repeat it once more before ending this post: The fact that some do yell louder does not mean that they are right or they are representative of the subsim.com community. In fact, they are quite the opposite (The forum archives are available to check that).

[joea]

Choice 1: Purchase the game and support the one company producing subsims, in the hope that it will continue to do so, and in the knowledge that the project would not be finished at the time of release and would require serious patching.


Which is what I did though I can't play the game on my old system (installed it today...don't ask :doh: back into the box for my new box).

Ach well we'll see what will happen, all the whiners will throw up their hands in the air and whine some more but never blame themselves. ZaPPPa if I wrote what I thought about your post, I'd get banned. :down:

[geosub1978]

Although I am brand new in these foruns I play subsims since 1991. The incomming prospects every year kept my intrest for 15years now and since Ubisoft has taken the lead of this project I think we have to support Ubi if we whant to maintain any prospects of subsims in the future, called SH4,5,6 or 7!:) .

After all playing a subsim, to my point of view, is not just a time filling procedure or endertainment. It is more or less a need and we always seek for something better and more interesting. The fact that Ubisoft has been devoted to that has to be appreciated desregarding the 40euros that we spent on SH3 and SH4.

Gentlmen let us enjoy the wonderfull subsims that we have and maintain our hopes for future developmnet! If there was no Ubi there would be no SH3 and SH4 and who knows...SH5!

Afterall, if someone thinks that something is really not good, he can suggest an amendment and the mostly capable moders of this forum will respond to that for sure, if not Ubisoft inclouding that in a patch!!!

[Wilcke]

OK, I am way to dense, thanks for the post! I sense your frustration with the process and also with the feedback from the user base. Is it "unrealistic expectations".....probably but it is all understandable.

Yes, the post is not a whine just venting frustration, thanks for that, we will still enjoy the wonderful aspects of SH4 and hope for patches to repair or add the missing bits. I urge all to support your favorite sim, buy copies give them away. Its the only way to keep these Dev Team alive and well fed!

Take care man, and thanks for the understanding, apologies for my misunderstanding your post!

Cheers!

Wilcke

[donut]

TDK1044 Sir,
You said it true. I am happy that UBI got my support,both as a Beta tester,& my
$50.00 fee. Damn I do miss SHI Radar though. Is missing torp track,& offset angle lines a bug,or feature ? Thought I read,it had something to do with the date line,
say what ?

[Subsim Monitor]

"I sincerely hope the number of bugs have hurt sales a lot."

Well... I guess that's it.

I have now heard it all on Subsim.com.

JCC

He doesn't know how it works, obviously. If SH4 does not sell well, there will be no SH5, guaranteed. Ubisoft will not look at the poor sales and draw the conclusion "We better make sure SH5 does is less buggy".

Putting together a bug-free computer game is not a slam dunk. Sometimes the game developement cycle uses all the time available and resources the budgeted, it has to go out the door. No company is going to keep it in development past the point where they can make money.

Making a computer game is similar to a sports team playing a game. They sometimes win, sometimes by a lot, but there are also times they just don't get it done.

[Fearless]

I will always support a sim game that I like irrespective of the faults it may have.

They are fixable.:)

I'm yet to come accross a pc game that isn't buggy in some ways. And as for being a beta tester.... that we all are for any pc game that's released on the market. How else can games be fixed. :yep: There are a lot of pcs out there around the world that have different specs and I'm yet to see a computer operate the same with exactly the same specs :lol:

If you enjoy the Silent Hunter series as I do then instead of attacking the Devs perhaps supporting them would help a lot more to get a product closer to being fixed.

[Nightmare]

Anyone choosing to debate with the OP you might just want to have a look at his resume.

JCC

And it doesn't take a lot of research on the web to figure out which project he's recently worked on. :)

[sunvalleyslim]

Well Guys,

Just give this forum a little bit more time, and we'll be rid of the Whiners. Those that don't like the game will be long gone and off to some other forum whining about something else.
Having been on a WWII Diesel Boat and knowing whats its like down under dark and deadly waters, gives a man a far better understanding of sub life. As stated earlier, try living on a sub at 1X TC.
Imagine my joy when they released Sub Sims, I thought I had died and gone to heaven. My only hope is that this type of sim can last forever.
I have utmost respect for those that wish to feel what its like aboard a sub. For those of you that will never get that experience this is truly the closest you will come.
And I know that there are many of you that absolutely love the feeling. Those of us will still be here, and will play through the bad times as well as the good.
In the real world you can't tell the Builder of your Boat you don't like it. You learn to work through the bugs and come to "Love Your Boat".........Happy hunting

[TDK1044]

These Devs really deserve our support. They are totally dedicated to producing the best possible sub sim for the end user. If some members here are frustrated with bugs in the game, imagine how the Devs felt on a daily basis, knowing from day one that the project you're working very long days to produce is highly likely to be unfinished when it goes 'gold', and all you can do is hope that you'll be allowed to heavily patch it after release.

This sim has the Devs' name on it, Guys, and if they are allowed to produce two more patches for it then the game will be where it would have been had it been given a feasible production schedule in the first place.

As for the very small number of members who wish to post nonsense encouraging people not to purchase the game so that sales will drop and Ubisoft will therefore be taught a lesson, I'm sure there are other Forums better suited to your talents. I hear 'Toys R Us' are looking for Beta Testers.

Here, we respect the Silent Hunter 4 Devs, and we thank Ubisoft for continuing with the Silent Hunter series, even though we may disagree with them on some major issues and we certainly make them aware of that fact.

In the end "He who has the money calls the tune". That would be Ubisoft.

[Snowman999]

Does anyone really think that another company will then rush in to produce a new subsim from scratch (at least two years work, more like three) with the probability being that they will make only a marginal profit, if that?


I for one DO think some other group would continue to produce sub sims. There is a world-wide audience of something like 300,000 proven fans of this franchise, and I think most would at least sample a new attempt.

But, I DON'T think it would:

1. Cost $50US. Probably more like $80-100.
2. Be distributed in big-box retail. Download only, DVD by mail if interested--the Matrix model.
3. Have printed manuals.
4. Focus on graphics (fine by me.)

The $50 price max is a creature/artifact of brick&mortar retail. True niche games (SH4, as I've said before, is not a niche game) attract a different customer, one less price sensitive if the product delivers immersion and historic truth. Look at "War in the Pacific"'s fan base on the Matrix forum site. And this for an $80 hex-based grognard wargame.

If the SIlent Hunter series continues down the path illustrated by the evolution betwen SH3 and SH4 I won't be interested in an SH5 in any event. I would have been fine with SH3 graphics in exchange for an experience that somewhat resembles the US Navy in 1941-45. Instead I got Lancaster bombers at Midway, garage mechanic uniforms, USMC belt buckles, etc.

If someone else wants to step up and produce an historic SIM at $80-100 I'll take a look. Pro-rated across the hours I'd spend it's pennies per.

[Snowman999]

In the end "He who has the money calls the tune". That would be Ubisoft.


Well, no, that would be us.

[ZaPPPa]

Ach well we'll see what will happen, all the whiners will throw up their hands in the air and whine some more but never blame themselves. ZaPPPa if I wrote what I thought about your post, I'd get banned. :down:
Funny how a dev bashing a whole community of gamers, a genre of games and a game company in particular is perfectly fine, but how saying anything bad about SH4 and UBI is not. Take a good long look at post #1 and tell me that wasn't a whine. The double standards in this forum are troubling.

I do support the SH and I bought a copy. Two copies actually because UBI's download site didn't work and they lost my order (not without taking my money though). However, I am not going to play nice and make UBI think I'm fine with their business practices. There's more than enough sheep in this world who will roll over and take everything the powerful companies throw at them.

By the way, You're more than welcome to PM me if you need to get your disgust with me off your chest.

[John Channing]

I have read the first post over and over and over again and it is not whinning... it is a statement of fact.

He is also one of the development team that brought this simulation out and, as such, on this site he will be treated with respect.

Now if you want to say there is a double standard about that, tough. There are a lot of other sites that I am sure would appreciate your patronage.

JCC

[mookiemookie]

If SH4 does not sell well, there will be no SH5, guaranteed. Ubisoft will not look at the poor sales and draw the conclusion "We better make sure SH5 does is less buggy".

Quoted for truth.

Those who want to "teach Ubi a lesson"...go right ahead. And take my hobby right down along with it. :cry:

[AVGWarhawk]

PS. I don't have a resume posted, but you can see the results of my software on national TV on Saturday and Sunday afternoons from early Spring to late Fall. :)


Free plug for the software and can spirt off anything I want. Excellent!


Funny how a dev bashing a whole community of gamers, a genre of games and a game company in particular is perfectly fine, but how saying anything bad about SH4 and UBI is not. Take a good long look at post #1 and tell me that wasn't a whine. The double standards in this forum are troubling.



Everyone is allowed to say their piece. Everyone is allowed to whine. Simply state your case and leave it at that. No need to run down each thread posting banterings and bashings on every reply they can.

I do support the SH and I bought a copy. Two copies actually because UBI's download site didn't work and they lost my order (not without taking my money though). However, I am not going to play nice and make UBI think I'm fine with their business practices. There's more than enough sheep in this world who will roll over and take everything the powerful companies throw at them.


Glad you supported them. You also bought the game in "Good Faith". Did not work out like you had hoped. Therefore, post your complaint and move on or attempt to work with the game and wait for a patch. UBI has channels to vent your frustrations. They have a forum. They have customer service. You have a receipt. Please ask them to correct your problem you are having with the game. In reality, this forum are for those that are making the game work and are enjoying it as best they can. Quite frankly, why bother posting a complaint here at Subsim at all? The game was not developed here. If I buy a Chevy that does not run I do not go to Ford with a complaint about my Chevy.

Therefore, muddling through the threads with complaints gets extremely tiresome not only for me but for others who just want some help with the game. Not to hard to understand. Members here are not posting for entertainment value for others who wish to bash not only the game but forum members as well. This is not the ultimate cage match. It is a forum about subsims. With all due respect for you and the others who venture here, please bring help, suggestions or friendship with your posts. Bring your complaints or issues to UBI. Like I said, they have customer support. Whether that support is good or bad....I do not want to hear about it.

[Greentimbers]

I just want to say to the developers that I have enjoyed both SH III and SH WOTP
and I thank them for all of their efforts.:up:

[sunvalleyslim]

Right on WarHawk.:up:.:up:..:up:.:up:

[swash]

Until a game is harder to deal with than the installation he11 I went through with Windows 95, I'll work with it:rotfl:
You're running SH4 on Windows95™??? How? and Wow!

I wish I could run this game on 98SE!!!!

:yep:

No, I have Windows XP Pro now. But back when Win95 came out, it was a nightmare. 2 hours on the phone with Microsoft formatting and rebooting and reinstalling everything only for them to just blame my hardware. I called the hardware people and they blamed Microsoft. I was stuck between a rock and a hardplace:damn:

If the OP is part of the Dev team, then I can feel his pain. The short time they had to release the game placed them between a rock and a hard place. They were told to release it and they did. Complaining about it isn't going to get it fixed any faster.

I love ww2 sub sims and have bought everyone that has came out over the past 2 decades. I still have fond memories of Silent Service on my C64 back then;)

I guess I have a niche in the niche. I like the Pacific theater more than the Atlantic, but that's just my personal preference.

So despite the problems and complaining, I hope UBI, the Devs and the Modders keep steaming full speed ahead to make SH4 the best it can be:up:

[John Channing]

Until a game is harder to deal with than the installation he11 I went through with Windows 95, I'll work with it:rotfl:
You're running SH4 on Windows95™??? How? and Wow!

I wish I could run this game on 98SE!!!!

:yep:

No, I have Windows XP Pro now. But back when Win95 came out, it was a nightmare. 2 hours on the phone with Microsoft formatting and rebooting and reinstalling everything only for them to just blame my hardware. I called the hardware people and they blamed Microsoft. I was stuck between a rock and a hardplace:damn:

If the OP is part of the Dev team, then I can feel his pain. The short time they had to release the game placed them between a rock and a hard place. They were told to release it and they did. Complaining about it isn't going to get it fixed any faster.

I love ww2 sub sims and have bought everyone that has came out over the past 2 decades. I still have fond memories of Silent Service on my C64 back then;)

I guess I have a niche in the niche. I like the Pacific theater more than the Atlantic, but that's just my personal preference.

So despite the problems and complaining, I hope UBI, the Devs and the Modders keep steaming full speed ahead to make SH4 the best it can be:up:

No if about it.

He is.

JCC

[TDK1044]

In the end "He who has the money calls the tune". That would be Ubisoft.


Well, no, that would be us.

I'll qualify the statement then. "He who puts up the massive development costs calls the tune."

[THE_MASK]

Well if you are a dev then all i can say is
KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK
KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK
KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK
KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK
KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK
KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK
KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK
KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK
KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK
KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK
KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK
KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK
KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK
KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK

[GnarPow]

I love ww2 sub sims and have bought everyone that has came out over the past 2 decades. I still have fond memories of Silent Service on my C64 back then;)

WOOT for C64, i used to love mine

C64 FTW!

[jdski]

I love this sim and all of the SH series. I hope a big zit grows on the nose of those who have nothing good to say about it.

[Front Runner]

it's heartbreaking to watch some goofy thing sell 10x more copies than you do. It sucks, it's frustrating and it's not fair. But it wouldn't hurt so much if you didn't care, and as long as you care and as long as it keeps paying the bills then what the hell. What else are you going to do?

Yeah, look how many copies "Achy Breaky Heart" sold.:-?

My bottom line is that I support SH4 and the developers. I put my money where my mouth is by buying the game. I actually have bought three copies. The Super Collectors version, the UK Collectors version and the US Amazon.com version.
I like to collect "Collectors sets" of games, and I put them on the shelf. I don't feel bad about the money I've spent to support the SH4 and subsim genre. There are not a lot of gamers who think it's fun to spend a few hours of game time at 1X positioning your sub perfectly for a torpedo attack, which may result in a miss, or a dud, a premature and a prolonged depth charge attack.

There have been some late nights when I've finally managed to break contact with the DD's, surfaced to charge batteries, (and save game) and looked at the clock and it's 4am and I have to get up at 6am to go to work. That kind of gaming (simming) only appeals to a limited group of gamers.

I compare it to Flight Simulator. I have been "playing" flight simulator by "pretending" that I am an airline captain and flying a scheduled hop from L.A. to N.Y. including all of the flight planning, fuel planning, pre-flight, ATC clearances etc. Somewhere over New Mexico, I am baby sitting the autopilot by clicking here, clicking there, and my son walks in the room and says "having fun, are we? Looks exciting." laughs, turns around and leaves.

I'm not the kind of person who likes to play first person shooters, I like slow, thoughtful, games that require and demand patience to be played properly.

SH4 is that kind of game for me.

[TheBrauerHour]

I played Silent Service and loved it. I bought SHIII when it first hit the shelves and loved it. I bought SH4, and then registered on these forums because I felt that I might actually post something about how I like this game too. I had been reading these forums since I bought SH3, and know the Subsim community is awesome.

Now some of these new people we have here, which some subsim members may be wary of, might be my friends from COD2. Please give them time (some may be 13, lol, but most of us are quite a bit older). They just need to be rehabilitated from the noob shooters, lol. They are a whiny bunch, but their money went toward this game too. A friend I introduced to SH3 and I made a SH4 "unit" and brought over a bunch of players from COD2 realism units. I have recruited some old friends from WWIIOL as well. We are a somewhat small group, but I know I have personally gotten 8 other people so far to buy SH4. Several others are waiting till payday to purchase it, or need computer upgrades.

I have chosen to promote this game, bugs and all. Does the fact that most of my torps miss on manual TDC make me scream for patches? No, but I will be glad when that stopwatch gadget gets fixed so I can tell speed. Till then, I will be sitting on my teamspeak having an awesome time with my growing group of SH4 players.

So to the devs: Rock on!!!! :rock:
To Subsim: Rock on even harder!!! :rock: :rock: :rock:

[maerean_m]

It's the most rewarding thing to find out that there are people that enjoy the game :sunny:. Happy hunting!

[Herr Karl]

it's heartbreaking to watch some goofy thing sell 10x more copies than you do. It sucks, it's frustrating and it's not fair. But it wouldn't hurt so much if you didn't care, and as long as you care and as long as it keeps paying the bills then what the hell. What else are you going to do?
Yeah, look how many copies "Achy Breaky Heart" sold.:-?

My bottom line is that I support SH4 and the developers. I put my money where my mouth is by buying the game. I actually have bought three copies. The Super Collectors version, the UK Collectors version and the US Amazon.com version.
I like to collect "Collectors sets" of games, and I put them on the shelf. I don't feel bad about the money I've spent to support the SH4 and subsim genre. There are not a lot of gamers who think it's fun to spend a few hours of game time at 1X positioning your sub perfectly for a torpedo attack, which may result in a miss, or a dud, a premature and a prolonged depth charge attack.

There have been some late nights when I've finally managed to break contact with the DD's, surfaced to charge batteries, (and save game) and looked at the clock and it's 4am and I have to get up at 6am to go to work. That kind of gaming (simming) only appeals to a limited group of gamers.

I compare it to Flight Simulator. I have been "playing" flight simulator by "pretending" that I am an airline captain and flying a scheduled hop from L.A. to N.Y. including all of the flight planning, fuel planning, pre-flight, ATC clearances etc. Somewhere over New Mexico, I am baby sitting the autopilot by clicking here, clicking there, and my son walks in the room and says "having fun, are we? Looks exciting." laughs, turns around and leaves.

I'm not the kind of person who likes to play first person shooters, I like slow, thoughtful, games that require and demand patience to be played properly.

SH4 is that kind of game for me.

Excellent summation!! :up:

[John Channing]

It's the most rewarding thing to find out that there are people that enjoy the game :sunny:. Happy hunting!

Enjoy does not begin to describe it.

I have discovered a Task Force in the Celebs Sea that is laying to to ride out a storm. I radioed in the contact report and got a reply that this Task Force has a Troop Transport in it that is carrying re-enforcements for the Japanese Landings in the Philipines. I have been instructed to sink the transport at all costs. Right now I am resting the crew, charging the batteries and getting the torpedos ready. As soon as night falls I will be moving back in, on the surface, to collect the transport.

It doesn't get much better than this.

[U-Bones]

It's the most rewarding thing to find out that there are people that enjoy the game :sunny:. Happy hunting!
Enjoy does not begin to describe it.

I have discovered a Task Force in the Celebs Sea that is laying to to ride out a storm. I radioed in the contact report and got a reply that this Task Force has a Troop Transport in it that is carrying re-enforcements for the Japanese Landings in the Philipines. I have been instructed to sink the transport at all costs. Right now I am resting the crew, charging the batteries and getting the torpedos ready. As soon as night falls I will be moving back in, on the surface, to collect the transport.

It doesn't get much better than this.

That is sweet !
From now on I radio in - I stopped long ago because it meant nothing...

[AVGWarhawk]

It's the most rewarding thing to find out that there are people that enjoy the game :sunny:. Happy hunting!
Enjoy does not begin to describe it.

I have discovered a Task Force in the Celebs Sea that is laying to to ride out a storm. I radioed in the contact report and got a reply that this Task Force has a Troop Transport in it that is carrying re-enforcements for the Japanese Landings in the Philipines. I have been instructed to sink the transport at all costs. Right now I am resting the crew, charging the batteries and getting the torpedos ready. As soon as night falls I will be moving back in, on the surface, to collect the transport.

It doesn't get much better than this.

That is sweet !
From now on I radio in - I stopped long ago because it meant nothing...

Definitely radio in on convoys. This is where the patrol takes a side track and blossums. I find certain triggers expand your patrol and mission you are sent on. Find a convoy, radio in and all of a sudden that photo shoot in some harbor takes back seat:yep: . Also, it you radio in on a convoy and are out of torps they will say great job and come on home when you ready. If you are loaded with fish like John stated, they will tell you to sink the vessels! Just remember, I believe 3 ships need to be spotted and the crew says 'ship spotted', then phone home:up:

[geosub1978]

2nd patrol, I did what I could to save Philipins...some 70.000tons nevertheless, to Surabaya...

I SHALL RETURN!!!

I completelly rejoin the Silent Service 2 times!!!

SH3 will always be in my heart!

[U-Bones]

It's the most rewarding thing to find out that there are people that enjoy the game :sunny:. Happy hunting!

There definately are. :up:

And for complainers like me, it comes from a love for the game. It's the same type of emotion that prompted you to make your post I would imagine.

Cheers ;)

[vindex]

Game software is essentially a publishing business model. According to the line of thinking in the first post, in a few years (if not already), you should expect to walk into a book store and find nothing but Clive Cussler, Tom Clancy, Dan Brown, Stephen King, and other mega-bestsellers because their sales figures so outstrip every other author's. And it is true that the book publishing business is driven by blockbusters; the vast majority of publishing profits come from them. But in fact, you will find that the range of both subjects and authors has been expanding dramatically in recent years, and not only on Amazon. Niches may not be blockbusters, but they can be profitable. I don't think there's anything factually to support the conclusion reached.

My price point for a game that works out of the box is $100. I am willing to pay a $50 premium to not put up with the hassle of crashes, flukes, etc. that MAY later get fixed in a patch. Maybe someday a quality- and customer service-conscious game publisher will take me up on this offer. I hope so.

[USS_shipmaster]

I absolutely agree with heartc,my best regards to devs team. At the same time I dare to say that UBIsoft can give devs a time to debug and make workable all declared features like chronometers / radars etc ( at least if UBI cares about sales and fairplay reputation because of UBI management made stupid schedule for game release).
Now I do targeting manually and i m fine with it but its job for approach officer, not for captain LOL.
Chronometer feature for example is a compromise between TOTAL manual targeting and Fire and Forget system for 'shooters'.
As one guy said ( I belive it's quote from Einstein) ' The Quantity Of Intelligence on the Earth is constant number. But , note that population is increasing'.

[John Channing]

It's the most rewarding thing to find out that there are people that enjoy the game :sunny:. Happy hunting!

Enjoy does not begin to describe it.

I have discovered a Task Force in the Celebs Sea that is laying to to ride out a storm. I radioed in the contact report and got a reply that this Task Force has a Troop Transport in it that is carrying re-enforcements for the Japanese Landings in the Philipines. I have been instructed to sink the transport at all costs. Right now I am resting the crew, charging the batteries and getting the torpedos ready. As soon as night falls I will be moving back in, on the surface, to collect the transport.

It doesn't get much better than this.

2 Light Cruisers, 1 Heavy Crusier and the Transport.

Now back to the North-East corner of the Celebs Sea to finish off my Patrol Objectives. I still have 4 torpedos and 3/4 tank of deisel and anyone who doesn't think there is a lot of action in that particular area in '43, just hasn't been paying attention.

JCC

[Takeda Shingen]

It's the most rewarding thing to find out that there are people that enjoy the game :sunny:. Happy hunting!
Enjoy does not begin to describe it.

I have discovered a Task Force in the Celebs Sea that is laying to to ride out a storm. I radioed in the contact report and got a reply that this Task Force has a Troop Transport in it that is carrying re-enforcements for the Japanese Landings in the Philipines. I have been instructed to sink the transport at all costs. Right now I am resting the crew, charging the batteries and getting the torpedos ready. As soon as night falls I will be moving back in, on the surface, to collect the transport.

It doesn't get much better than this.

That is sweet !
From now on I radio in - I stopped long ago because it meant nothing...

Definitely radio in on convoys. This is where the patrol takes a side track and blossums. I find certain triggers expand your patrol and mission you are sent on. Find a convoy, radio in and all of a sudden that photo shoot in some harbor takes back seat:yep: . Also, it you radio in on a convoy and are out of torps they will say great job and come on home when you ready. If you are loaded with fish like John stated, they will tell you to sink the vessels! Just remember, I believe 3 ships need to be spotted and the crew says 'ship spotted', then phone home:up:

Comms interaction was certainly my favorite addition in SHIV. Now that's immersion.

[Trevally.]

What have I learnt by reading this post?

Normally I check out this forum to learn tips and tricks to enhance my Sipper abilities. If you look hard enough there are good posts out there to find. A lot of you guys have taught me some very handy skills to maximise the experience I get from this game. :rock:

I was concerned when I read about the low sales of this game and that if it causes to many problems there might not be another. Someone posted that this should not happen and reffered to book shops as an example. Im not sure if this would work the same with games, in that the develpment costs must affect the number of games required to make a profit. 300,000 * $50 = 1.5Mil. Is this enough for Ubi? Im not sure. I hope so or there wont be a fifth.

If there is a fifth then lets hope the dev team can continue to put their all into it as I am sure some of the posts about this game must make them think "&$%£ them". I think the person that posted, "they will be gone from the forum soon" is right. Everyone is entitled to a rant now and then, but some of it seems to be endless.

Anyway im off to search for that big target that is waiting just over the horizon and for the first time I will call it in to HQ. So thanks for that tip too. :up:

[maerean_m]

My price point for a game that works out of the box is $100. I am willing to pay a $50 premium to not put up with the hassle of crashes, flukes, etc. that MAY later get fixed in a patch. Maybe someday a quality- and customer service-conscious game publisher will take me up on this offer. I hope so.

Me too :hmm:

[Reaves]

Some time ago I heard people saying SH4 is bugged! I'm going to keep playing STALKER. Well I also have stalker... if you go to thier forums you will see many threads about bugs. People were talking about EA earlier as if they make bug free games. I'd like those people to remember Battlefield 2 and the facelift called BF2142. (Same engine as BF2 which I don't complain about but it also carried bugs from the previous version.)

Now I may not have a resume in computing but I do have a shelf full of games and been playing PC's since I had an XT. (Think of a 286 but still older, good old CGA monitor.) SH4, is IMO a great game that was released early. I have faith in UBI that they will continue working on the title as long as it is needed. I have this faith because other sim titles I have purchased did the same thing. il2, Sh3....

SH4 is a great game. The series is a favorite of mine and will be as long as they make them.