TUTORIAL VIDEO: Advanced Firing Solution using Sonar only

[WernerSobe]

This Tutorial will explain how to use sonar and position keeper in order to make a firing solution without visual contact. It requires basic knowledge of plotting and creating firing solutions. (17 minutes)


At First, forgive me my accent and mistakes, english is not my native language.
It comes in two parts because MyVideo can only host videos shorter then 10 minutes.
And in high resolution version (67mb).

PART 1 http://www.myvideo.de/watch/1280661
PART 2 http://www.myvideo.de/watch/1280691

HIGHRES 1. Mirror http://www.brewsterpilot.com/brewsterpilot/movie.zip
HIGHRES 2. Mirror http://www.mediafire.com/?1mayy2ymgmj






Procedure

1. Locate the target with sonar (or radar) and plot the course
2. Bring your boat to good firing position
3. Estimate speed with distance (nM between 2 locations) / time (minutes between 2 locations) * 60.
4. Estimate AoB
5. Start position keeper
6. Update PK with new bearing and range from sonar until the target reaches good firing angle
7. Set up the torpedos and fire.


thanks to Sir Big Jugs for hosting the high res version.

[Sir Big Jugs]

Man, I wish my computer could run SHIV!:damn:
Anyway, I could host the full sized version if you like.
Send me an email to brewsterpilot@gmail.com with the file, and I'll try to upload it as soon as possible.

-SBJ

[Camaero]

You are the man! Thanks!

[Camaero]

The second video doesn't seem to be working.

It says this: "Das Video wird noch bearbeitet. Versuche es später noch einmal."

I don't know what that means, but it aint good!:cry:

[WernerSobe]

it means you have to wait a moment, its not ready uploaded. They told me it would take about 20 minutes.

[Sir Big Jugs]

Works for me, worked 40 mins ago too.:-?

[Von Stormin]

Thanks for the tutorial... Now, all I have to do is learn this...

[Sir Big Jugs]

Higher resolution version of this excellent tutorial available for download here:

http://www.brewsterpilot.com/brewsterpilot/movie.zip

[greekfire]

I'm downloading it right now. I can't wait to see you do this. I freakin LOVE video tutorials for SH especially if the resolution is good enough to see the dials and buttons. Thanks for taking the time to post this for those of us who are newb'n.

EDIT: All I can say is WOW. I just learned a ton of stuff watching that video. Gonna watch it again later and note everything you did. Thanx a million.

[jdski]

Excellent tutorial. One thing I was wondering. You seemed to have guestimated the AOB when you could have used the protractor to measure a more accurate one. Knowing the targets course and position, just start the protractors first line out on the targets course, put the protractors intersect postion on the targets position, then bring the last line to your sub. The reading is your AOB. From there you can update the AOB by just moving the protactors intersect postision to the estimated targets position.

[WernerSobe]

Thank you for hosting the high res version and thanks for positive feedback.

Excellent tutorial. One thing I was wondering. You seemed to have guestimated the AOB when you could have used the protractor to measure a more accurate one

I have not guessed AoB. this method was exact. Look ive placed the boat 90° to the course. When your boat is right angled to the course you can just translate bearing into AoB. In the Video im saying that since the bearing was about 310 the AoB should be about 40. That was a mistake. It should have been 50. (310+50=360). Ive noticed it later and have corrected the AoB.

Its easier to use that method, otherwise id need to make another location mark.

[Uber Gruber]

Excellent Tutorial, both in terms of quality and educative material. Also, your voice is easy to listen too which makes absorbing what you say easier.

So, well done mate, and I hope you do some more. Perhapps even a complete series :yep:

[melin71]

You have made the game even better,,, thanks!! great video...do you have more tutorial...bring them on! =):up:

[flintlock]

Excellent video tutorials! Very well done.

Thank you for taking the time to create and share this.

:up:

[Bill.Braskey]

Thank you for your video. I never knew you could ping the target like that or get the gyro bearing. I cant wait to try this method.

Thanks again

[WernerSobe]

one more mirror for high res version http://www.mediafire.com/?1mayy2ymgmj

[Gino]

Very nicely done!!

I'm impressed.

groetjes,

[melin71]

i bumb this

[Marko_Ramius]

Excellent !! :up:

Those tutorial videos are pure gold for me to learn ; Many thanks.


I want more ;)

[FlyingThermos]

Thanks for this tutorial. Watched it at work and got excited to come home and practice it.

[kevtherev]

Really super video Werner. :up:
You have opened, for me, an unknown area of SH4. This is very exciting as before I had only been used to 'auto firing and target aquisition', now there is a whole new world before me. Many, many thanks. Now just a couple of questions concerning the whole procedure.
I notice on your video you show the target position and course on the attack map as being in white. With my setup there is no target pos or course shown on the attack map (100% realism).
Is it necessary to update the AOB prior to firing the torps as you do not seem to mention this, or maybe I have missed it.
I have set up a couple of scenarios with the mission editor so that I can practice your method, and also a couple with good visibility so that I can also do some practicing on visual target aquisition. This has all come about from looking at your tutorial.
Once again, many thanks from an Englishman in Hamburg !

[DURUK]

Very nice hit and a good couple of hits..
Thank you for the video.. however it has brought a question to my mind.. will post it in a new thread..

[Noisy Hunter]

Werner,

Thanks alot for the tutorial; very good and helpful for a new player. :up:

One question though: isn't it risky to fire at an unidentified target? Have you never sent an allied ship to the bottom using this technique?

cheers

Noisy H.

[Engel]

Very good Tutorial. Your voice and "accent" was easy to understand :up:

[Wurbs]

Outstounding Video and information, im going to have to watch a couple times to get the hang of it, but im sure with this it will all work out.

:up:

[WernerSobe]

I notice on your video you show the target position and course on the attack map as being in white. With my setup there is no target pos or course shown on the attack map (100% realism).
Is it necessary to update the AOB prior to firing the torps as you do not seem to mention this, or maybe I have missed it.

The white line and cross are drawn by Position Keeper. You must give range, speed and AOB to your TDC and have Position aktivated to have it appear. It doesnt mean the target is acutaly there, its just the calculated interception point and its course.

[WernerSobe]

Werner,

Thanks alot for the tutorial; very good and helpful for a new player. :up:

One question though: isn't it risky to fire at an unidentified target? Have you never sent an allied ship to the bottom using this technique?

cheers

Noisy H.

Identifying target is indeed a problem. Buts thats 100% realism, you are the captain, its your decission. You should use this method only when you can for sure tell this is an enemy. In example when youre 300 miles from Japaneese coast, a single merchant will rather be enemy then friendly.

But from historical books i know that it happened actualy quite often that friendly ships where sank because of wrong identification or blind shots.

[Manny]

An excellent tutorial! I have learn't a lot from this. Thank You for the time and effort you put into making it.

[U56_Dragon]

Very nice WernerSobe. I like the accent too:up:
This will help many who wonder how it is done.:D

[CaptainHunter]

Thanks much needed.

[Prof]

Great video...that might convince me to start using fully manual targetting :)

Just one question...when you are nearing the end of the solution plotting, you send the range/bearing information to the TDC 5 or 6 times. Why? Does the TDC automatically average the range estimates or were you looking for a good result and repeating the process until you found it?

[Q3ark]

Hi there, just wanted to say thanks for the tutorial. Stuff like this should have been in the manual and i would never have figured it out for myself. Just one question, what was the formula for figuring out the speed, i can't seem to replicate what you did there :damn: .

[WernerSobe]

Great video...that might convince me to start using fully manual targetting :)

Just one question...when you are nearing the end of the solution plotting, you send the range/bearing information to the TDC 5 or 6 times. Why? Does the TDC automatically average the range estimates or were you looking for a good result and repeating the process until you found it?

No unfortuanly it does not.

Ive just done it to hit an average. As i said there is a small sonar error. So when you ping a target and you get numbers varying between 2500 and 2000 you should ping it until you are at about 2250 then you have the everage and rather close to correct solution and you can stop.

Basicly - the shorter the time between your last data update and your attack, the less critical will solution errors take effect. Example. You have a solution that is wrong in speed by 1 knot. Now lets say you dont update bearing for about 3 minutes. Your solution will be displaced from real target alot more then if you have updated bearing just before you release the fishes. So the most important thing about it is the correct bearing when you fire. When you update the bearing just before you shoot, they will more likely hit even if the solution is flawed by little.

[WernerSobe]

Hi there, just wanted to say thanks for the tutorial. Stuff like this should have been in the manual and i would never have figured it out for myself. Just one question, what was the formula for figuring out the speed, i can't seem to replicate what you did there :damn: .

In imperial system:

1 knots = 1 nautical Miles per hour.

or

The distance a ship needs to travel through two locations in miles, devided by the time it needs to travel through those locations in minutes and multiplied by 60 equals its speed in knots.

Speed (kt) = Distance (nM) / Time (min) * 60

[Q3ark]

Thanks for your help:up: . Now i can use manual TDC, was getting a bit boring not being able to hit anything. I wonder if it is possible to use this method when your sub is moving, will give it a try tonight. :arrgh!:

[WernerSobe]

Note this is not a standard firing procedure. Usualy you can get bearing and range visualy with the scope, it will render a much more accurate solution and is also a faster method. Of course you can also combine the two methods by in example making visual solution and pinging the target to check the data or get the range when youre not sure of your identification, or youre geting wierd numbers from stadimeter. But be carefull, pinging a target may render attention of escorts. They will barely know where the pinging comes from but they will definetely be alerted and start searching for you.

[WernerSobe]

Thanks for your help:up: . Now i can use manual TDC, was getting a bit boring not being able to hit anything. I wonder if it is possible to use this method when your sub is moving, will give it a try tonight. :arrgh!:

And for the speed. You dont need to plot every target to get its speed.

see my another guide here : http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=112448 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=112448&highlight=easy+fast+speed)
You shouldnt move however when you are geting speed visualy. Once you have it you can move

[kevtherev]

The white line and cross are drawn by Position Keeper. You must give range, speed and AOB to your TDC and have Position aktivated to have it appear. It doesnt mean the target is acutaly there, its just the calculated interception point and its course.

Thanks for the prompt reply Werner but I am still not seeing the white cross etc. even though sending range etc to TDC. I am afraid that I do not understand 'Position aktivated ', how do I do this ?
Do I also have to constatly update AoB similar to range and bearing.
I have read somewhere that there is a bug with the attack map in that it does not show info. at various locations, I have however located my test missions at East China Sea, Celebes and Pearl and at non of these could I bring up the white X etc. Simply annoying. Everything else is super with your tutorial with the exception of my AoB question.
Sorry if these seem to be futile questions but I am a bit of a dummy at firing solutions etc. in general. :oops:

[WernerSobe]

never heard of that bug.

1. do you have any mods installed. Some mods seem to make changes to attack map. Ive seen a mod that removed the green line from attack map and it was not documented.

2. are you sure you have the position keeper activated? (its the red button, im pushing it at minute 10:04 in tutorial) This is whats the entire tutorial is about. Im using position keeper (instead of scope) for updating firing solution. Once the position keeper has 4 informations (range, AoB, speed and bearing) it will automaticly compute all 4 informations based on their connection to each other.

[bruschi sauro]

thank for the great work!:up:
:up:

[kevtherev]

##########
2. are you sure you have the position keeper activated? (its the red button, im pushing it at minute 10:04 in tutorial) This is whats the entire tutorial is about. Im using position keeper (instead of scope) for updating firing solution. Once the position keeper has 4 informations (range, AoB, speed and bearing) it will automaticly compute all 4 informations based on their connection to each other.

Silly me Werner, I was going off the UBI manual for TDC and PK operation. In my manual there is a picture of the PK but no button as you describe. On the actual game PK the button is quite clear and when pressed (showing red) does indeed bring up the solution on the attack map. Thanks to Werner, no thanks to UBI (again). The solutions that I had been getting (without activated PK) produced reasonable results but with it activated they are probably better. Once again, and for the last time on this subject, many thanks. :up: :up:
MfG from Hamburg.

[stuntcow]

Thank you for your time and effort in making this video. Is a big help and enjoyed it a great deal.

[sakko]

Werner you have a cool accent, I wish I could speak German as well as you speak English! Your tutorial totally opened the game up to a new level for me. I was apprehensive of turning on manual TDC, but now I am going to try it for sure.. visual shots first of course hehe, but watching you own a tanker with nothing but acoustic data was just shocking...

I am downloading the high res version to watch it again, this is so cool! Thanks for taking the time!

[Snacko]

Great Job! :up::up::up:

I love Video Tutorials too! More Please! :yep:

[WernerSobe]

Werner you have a cool accent, I wish I could speak German as well as you speak English! Your tutorial totally opened the game up to a new level for me. I was apprehensive of turning on manual TDC, but now I am going to try it for sure.. visual shots first of course hehe, but watching you own a tanker with nothing but acoustic data was just shocking...

I am downloading the high res version to watch it again, this is so cool! Thanks for taking the time!

tnx :-) welcome to 100%

[sqk7744]

Moved here by request from:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=108931&page=2

"But let's pretend you don't change course. Ok, now the last bit of the puzzle is Angle on the Bow. You have two ways to use this. First, if you can determine the true course of the contact via plotting, you can input the contact's heading to determine AoB. "Sir, contact heading is plotted out to be 330 degrees!" You do not move the A, B, and Periscope dials; you move the C dial until the "0" degrees mark of the C dial is pointing to the "300" degrees mark of the B dial. When you do this, you look at the Periscope dial marker 180 degrees opposite the Periscope triangle. This marker points at "120", on the left side of the C dial ship, so this tells you that the contact AoB is 120 degrees port"
Krunch ----

The following (hopefully) illustrates Capn Krunches' example:
(it appears C (Enemy Vessel) wheel's 0 points to 330 and not 300, is that correct?)

BIG Thanks to Igorry for the Clarification on the Bow oriented up (12 o’clock position) and to Hitman for pointing out that the heading was 330 and not 300.

I wanted to provide an easy, clear 3D example of how this looks for my Mates on the Forum.

Cheers!

-----------------
Visual Aids...Yes Nurse Ratchet let me have an extra hour of arts and crafts time.

And now for the Players:

First-up The USS "Onkel" Stevens
http://www.battleflags.us/images/IsWas/USS_Stevens.jpg

Next, "The Enemy"

http://www.battleflags.us/images/IsWas/enemy.jpg


[The Set-up]
1) Sub Heading: 90
2) Target heading: 330
3) Target Bearing: 300
4) Target AOB: 120

1) USS "Onkel" Stevens Heading 090 (align your heading 090 on Wheel B to 180 of wheel A)
* Note Submarine examples do not contain the C Wheel for simplicity
http://www.battleflags.us/images/IsWas/SUB090.jpg

2) Our Target Heading 330 (Align the 0 (zero) on Wheel C to Target course 330 of Wheel B)
* Note Target examples do not contain the Transparent Periscope Wheel for simplicity
http://www.battleflags.us/images/IsWas/Target330.jpg

3) TARGET BEARING 300 relative Sir! (Set the inside Arrow of the transparent Periscope Layer
"highlighted in Red" to 300 on the A Wheel.)
http://www.battleflags.us/images/IsWas/Bearing300.jpg

4) AOB=120 to Port Sir (now look at The Arrow Tip of the Periscope Layer on the A Wheel)
* Note: if the C (3rd inner) wheel were included the Tip of the Periscope Arrow wheel would point to 120.
This can be seen on the Is-Was image.
http://www.battleflags.us/images/IsWas/AOB.jpg

And as shown on the Is-Was

http://www.battleflags.us/images/IsWas/Is-Was.jpg
[In Summary]
The Photos:
1) Our Sub's Heading: 90
2) Target heading: 330
3) Target Bearing: 300 (the inside Arrow of the transparent Periscope Layer "highlighted in Red" on the A Wheel.)
4) Target AOB = 120 Shown by the Tip of the Periscope Arrow wheel Highlighted in Red Pointing at the C Wheel

The Wheels:
A Wheel = Our Submarine
B Wheel = True Compass Heading
Transparent Wheel = The Periscope/TBD/Binoculars "bearing" to target
C Wheel = Enemy/Target ship Heading

Hope this is correct and helpful!

Enjoy

[Couldn't resist the result!] :arrgh!:

"BOOOOOOOOM!"
http://www.battleflags.us/images/IsWas/Boom.jpg

Load #3 Torpedo Attack:

Here's what you should see after a minute or two into the simulation:

Subs' Heading = 000 due north and speed 0
Target heading = 102.674 (let's use 100)
Bearing to Target = 325
AOB = 45 (42 if using Target heading of 102-103)
Target speed = 9knts

* TIP: once in Map view F3 hit backspace to pause the sim. When ready, hit the NumPab + (plus) key to continue.

You can check this by drawing a line out from your sub's center with the distance tool on your course to the 8^ 13' N

Now draw another line from the target's center until it intersects your course line.

Take the Protractor and draw a line from the Intersection point to the Target's bow, now left-click and draw another line to your bow. The Angle on the Bow should = 45 degrees for AOB=45.

Please let me know if I've understood this right.

Thanks!

[Herr Karl]

That hilarious!!

:rotfl:

[Iceman]

AWESOME Tutorial!...your as cooooool as a cucumber...great job there sir I salute you. I want you on any team I play on dang fine setup there.... :up: I've been skooled..:know:

[Kickbum]

Bloody good vid mate, thanks a lot. And your english and accent work very well indeed....

[Storabrun]

I have not guessed AoB. this method was exact. Look ive placed the boat 90° to the course. When your boat is right angled to the course you can just translate bearing into AoB. In the Video im saying that since the bearing was about 310 the AoB should be about 40. That was a mistake. It should have been 50. (310+50=360). Ive noticed it later and have corrected the AoB.

Its easier to use that method, otherwise id need to make another location mark.

You should probably change that back since your first AoB was correct. If you are set up 90 degrees to his course the AoB will increase up to 90 when he cross your bow at the bearing 0 (360). The bearing will increase from 310 to 360 (50), but AoB must increase by just as much (50) so it must be 40 at the time when bearing was 310.

[MudMarine]

Sqk7744,
The use of the SACF is clear as bell with that illustration. Thanks alot.

[popeye]

excellent tutorial! he sounds like a u-boat commander.

[JSF]

Thanks for the tutorial. That was very informative and helped explain several other aspects of the game I didn't understand till viewing your videos. Job well done Werner.

[sqk7744]

Sqk7744,
The use of the SACF is clear as bell with that illustration. Thanks alot.
Happy it was of help m8 :up:

[TopcatWA]

:up: Thanks for a great tutorial.

[Rockin Robbins]

I am just glad U-Boats didn't have a TDC. Just imagine how deadly they would have been then! I still enjoy playing SH3 more, but Verner, you have just added a new dimension to the American U-Boat that makes it a very interesting weapon. I wonder if American and German U-Boat captains met and swapped stories after the war. I know from some of the American captains' books that they studied U-Boat aces very carefully in determining tactics in the Pacific. In better times they would have been friends.

[AVGWarhawk]

First time I watched this and it is awesome. I have a better understanding of pinging the target and getting useful information from it.:up:

[Treylis]

Wind 17m/s outside, heavy fog, heavy rain, 0130 hours, zero visibility. I hear a lone merchant coming along and I position myself correctly, pause, alt-tab to review your video, and launch two torps, both hit perfectly, the first instantly destroying the... uh-oh, "Friendly Unit Destroyed".


At least the technique works fine, haha. I'm wondering if I should load my pre-firing save or take my lumps because it amuses me so much.

[chopped50ford]

that tutorial was awesome. how do I get one of those wheels. :)

[EyeGee]

Thanks for taking the time to make a great tutorial :|\\

[Rockin Robbins]

This is truly the most fun possible in Silent Hunter 4. The sense of accomplishment in putting two torpedoes into a target you've never seen is unimaginable. Then you find out you've just sunk the USS Enterprise....:eek:

Use with care, gentlemen.:rotfl:

[Wilcke]

This is truly the most fun possible in Silent Hunter 4. The sense of accomplishment in putting two torpedoes into a target you've never seen is unimaginable. Then you find out you've just sunk the USS Enterprise....:eek:

Use with care, gentlemen.:rotfl:

Good one....yes where is that IFF!:rotfl:

[Soundman]

I was just browsing around, and while I already knew this technique, while I was watching, I couldn't help but notice the chrono in this video is what appears to be the original that came with the game. :up: I would much prefer to have this older chrono. I don't need the time on my stopwatch, I get that from the digital readout in the lower righthand corner. All the chronos we have now, are so cluttered, sometimes you can't really read it. :down: Often, the "time hands" are covering up the chrono readout. :damn: :damn: :damn: They look nice, but I would prefer something more simple. I've posted similar sentiments before. Can anyone tell me how to put the orginal chrono back in ? Thanks !

[Paco]

HIGHRES 1. Mirror http://www.brewsterpilot.com/brewsterpilot/movie.zip
HIGHRES 2. Mirror http://www.mediafire.com/?1mayy2ymgmj.

Hi,

the links to the hires files are down. Could you offer a new link, please?

Thanks,
Paco.

[BillBam]

Hi,

the links to the hires files are down. Could you offer a new link, please?

Thanks,
Paco.


Unfortunately WernerSobe is no longer on these forums so it is unlikely the links will ever be updated.

[Rockin Robbins]

I am keeping all Werner's videos available in the first post of the stickied Sub Skipper's Bag of Tricks thread. Also available there is the only other sonar only technique ever developed, the Dick O'Kane Sonar Only method. Just click the link in my signature.

[blankkor]

Very useful!

[Daniel Prates]

Blankkor just resuscitated an year-old-dead thread here, but indeed it is a great thread. Worth re-reading. Worth rating too.

[sqk7744]

This server move (6 years on ) is a real pain :up:

[Haukka81]

Bumb because i have missed this somehow , always nice to learn new things.

[Rockin Robbins]

First post in my Sub Skippers Bag of Tricks Thread has a link to WernerSobe's video. Well worth watching and using the information. He uses sonar to do a regular position keeper approach and firing. Just click the link in my signature.

[ColonelSandersLite]

A blast from the past. The main thing I remembered about these videos from all these years ago was when he said "I can now disarm the bomb". I always found the default stopwatch sound to be really annoying. I eventually ended up modding it so it's much more quiet. Now it sounds more like a stopwatch and less like big ben.