1UP SH4 game review by Jeff Lackey

[Onkel Neal]

Good review, Jeff, especially the opening ;) Will you have a print review (Games for Windows) as well? I want to get a copy of the mag when it comes out.

Hardcore simulation fanatics are their own worst enemy: They bemoan the lack of simulations available, and then -- when a publisher invests the money to develop one -- declare the game unworthy of the two cents of polycarbonate on the disc due to its lack of realism. "How could the developers call this a 'simulation' when the altimeter dial is clearly 0.2 centimeters larger than the real thing? It's unplayable!" The publisher sighs, fires the development team, and makes sure its next game is another first-person shooter. Those irate fans should bite their tongues, though: Wolves of the Pacific (fourth in the Silent Hunter submarine sim franchise) will make all but the most jaded undersea warfare enthusiasts happy.


1UP SH4 Game review link (http://www.gamerankings.com/itemrankings/launchreview.asp?reviewid=771319)


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[akdavis]

Nice short review, but I think the opening is totally out of place. The most frequent complaint about the game being unplayable here (haven for the "die-hard" types described) is that the game is unplayable due to reoccuring CTDs, not tiny historical mistakes.

[Iron Budokan]

Nice short review, but I think the opening is totally out of place. The most frequent complaint about the game being unplayable here (haven for the "die-hard" types described) is that the game is unplayable due to reoccuring CTDs, not tiny historical mistakes.

Absolutely correct. There are real playability problems with this game other than the cutesy (and pretentious) poke in the eye this reviewer gave sub simmers.:down:

[NefariousKoel]

I've had 3 CTDs in all the hours I've played SH4 thus far and only using the Stadimeter. And only after encountering my first target after leaving base in a campaign. Saving after leaving base and reloading has eliminated the problem for me.


Hopefully it is fixed, but I've had no other game breakers and no constant CTDs.:hmm:

[mookiemookie]

I thought it was a pretty funny and accurate opening. :lol:

[Ducimus]

Personnaly i think he has a point. There are a number of people just like he describes. I remember when SH1 was launched and some people were so irrate, i remember vividly one reply to such a thread way back then... went somethign along the lines of "you wouldn't be happy unless you could smell the diesal fumes coming out of your monitor". Not often i remember flame post like that from years ago, but it was so spot on it left an impression. Not saying everyone is ilke that, but we do have our fair share. At least we did in SH3. Sh4 is too new, the rivet counters (whoever they'll be this time) havent come out of their shells yet.

[AVGWarhawk]

I thought it was humorous myself. Let me see, playability:hmm:. ...played at least 30 hours. One CTD by pressing 'A' key. Second CTD using stadimeter..after leaving on second patrol, autosave was done in port, reloaded no issues since. That is it. 30 hours, 2 CTD. Seems playable to me and with much joy.

BTW, I do not think the paint color in the control room is historically correct....simulator yeah right......:rotfl:

[Sldghammer]

I thought his comments hit the nail squarely on the head.

I had a number of CTD's, however they were all my own fault. I had older CAT drivers installed. When I upgraded to 7.1 the CTD's disappeared.

Since then, I have had 1. I had to press the A key just to see, so again my own damn fault.

You only have to visit the IL2 or Battlefront forums (or WWIIOL) to see the whining about the smallest stuff. WWIIOL was particularily vicious.

The fact is that forums should be looked at by developers with a jaded eye. If they coded for every complaint they would end up with Windows ME. :p

[rik007]

Yeah! A CTD is as blowing your tanks in an u-boat. Hope that will help you :lol:

[Onkel Neal]

Nice short review, but I think the opening is totally out of place. The most frequent complaint about the game being unplayable here (haven for the "die-hard" types described) is that the game is unplayable due to reoccuring CTDs, not tiny historical mistakes.

Absolutely correct. There are real playability problems with this game other than the cutesy (and pretentious) poke in the eye this reviewer gave sub simmers.:down:

But I believe it is true. From interaction with game developers and publishers over the last 8 years or so, they tell me the same things Jeff describes. It's not a poke in the eye, it is how many unreasonable and demanding players have made developers frustrated and lose interest in simulations. One very high up in a ubiqutous game company spoke with me at E3 a few years back. He said, (I quote from memory)."Neal, no matter what we do, many of the sim guys are so full of it, there is no pleasing them. Sure, we could spend resources and build a sub game with 3D crews, dynamic campaigns, and open maps, but they would still find something to complain about. No matter what you give them, they think the hundreds of hours they play the game over a year or two is not worth their $50. No one in the the industry wants anything to do with it anymore."

Which is why other than IL-2 and MS Flight Sim, the Silent Hunter series is the last of a breed.

I 100% agree, if a game is unplayable due to CTD or essential game functions being broken, it's a problem to complain about, it is a dealbreaker. But I have not had the problems you describe. After reinstalling SH4 and applying the 1.1 patch, I have not had a single CTD in 45 hours of playing. As you know, we always get some guys who post "xx game is crap, it won't run" and then someone helpful here suggests a sound card setting or driver update and guess what? The "crap" game suddenly is golden. Or, the guy fixed his problem but never comes back to correct his rant, which really makes the game look at fault. I started Subsim and these forums years ago to help players enjoy subsims, and if there are people here who need help, we should help them. That is the main reason there is a forum here.

But historically, Jeff is right, rivetcounters ruined the niche genre by scaring off casual gamers and game companies.

That's my opinion, anyway ;) You can disagree if you wish, I'll still sail with you.

Neal

[Immacolata]

Rivetcounters- lol. Never heard that one before. But boy oh boy. I wish everyone who ever moaned had read that tiny little passage about game companies not wanting to play in the simulation genre anymore.

I think the internet actually killed the sim genre, since a maltorrent of rivetcounters could now pester the devs about their lack of historically rivetting.

Next time you catch me whine over a sim, shoot me please.


I JUST hope it doesn't deter the current devs too much. I do hope they see some positive and happy players here on the forums too. Such as myself. Right now Ive berthed USS Wossname to play some Europa Universalis III patch 1.2.1 :) I spent 25 hours patrolling SHIV, so my 50$ have not been spent badly, to say otherwise would be very ungrateful. And once patch 1.2 docks I am sure Ill take the fleet boat out for another patrol. Or possibly 5 :)

Oh, lest we forget. I have played Wow last year and this year too. Now you've seen NOTHING untill you've seen the amount of whining and rivetcounting taking place on the wow forums. Golly.

I think the problem is that the sim genre has all the WORST rivetcounters AND the money is small. Im sure the devs and the publishers could stomach much more whining before giving up the ghost, if they could listen to the jingle of coins generated after 8-10 mio sold copies :P

[jtm55]

Hi All,

IMHO I think that Review/Interview should be stickied so all of the "rivetcounters" can see that the Developers do visit the Forums, to see what Folks think about Their work.

[Onkel Neal]

Hi All,

the Developers do visit the Forums, to see what Folks think about Their work.

Sure they do. :yep: Imagine you are an artist, programmer, or designer of a high fidelity simulation, and you pop into the fan forum, and everyone is ranting wildly about some detail (right or wrongly, perhaps). You would wonder why so few mention how cool and realistic the torpedo impacts you spent days and night on are ignored. Or why no one praises the sound, feel, and gameplay accuracy of the hydrophone station. Or any of a lot of things. I would say who needs this? :doh:

[Skweetis]

Which is why other than IL-2 and MS Flight Sim, the Silent Hunter series is the last of a breed.

But historically, Jeff is right, rivetcounters ruined the niche genre by scaring off casual gamers and game companies.

Neal

Hammer, nail, head.

[Immacolata]

Ok, here we go.

But Im almost embarassed to admit that even now, after 2 years of SH3 and now SH4 I still experience an immense pleasure when my torpedo hits and plumes of water spray up from my target. Its visceral that feeling :)

And I spend ages on the freecam just observing in what fancy way my target decides to give up the ghost and dip below the surface. My fave must be when they keel over and sink sideways or even bottoms up.

Oh, and did I mention how lovely those ship models are? Works of art.

[jtm55]

Hi All,

Neal, I agree with you 100%. I wish some of the other folk would tone down their criticism. There is so much that is right about Silent Hunter IV.

[Iron Budokan]

You just gotta love reviews that blame the gamer for the limitations of the game in question. :D

[Marko]

Hi All,

the Developers do visit the Forums, to see what Folks think about Their work.
Sure they do. :yep: Imagine you are an artist, programmer, or designer of a high fidelity simulation, and you pop into the fan forum, and everyone is ranting wildly about some detail (right or wrongly, perhaps). You would wonder why so few mention how cool and realistic the torpedo impacts you spent days and night on are ignored. Or why no one praises the sound, feel, and gameplay accuracy of the hydrophone station. Or any of a lot of things. I would say who needs this? :doh:
Perhaps here we are missing the point.
Let’s say that you have a program that calculate your tax with an outstanding interface, cool animating buttons, futuristic scrolls down boxes etc, but …. but it makes calculation bad and another with a normal interface but when u go to your tax office is all ok.
What’s the core part of a simulation game?
Let’s speak about DW, i really don’t remeber what was the last game using 16bit graphics, so graphically speaking is not good but what about the simulation part? Very good.
What’s the category of SH and DW? Simulation.
I can understand the the graphics part of a game is important but don’t come to me and say that shIII graphics was bad?

What are you calling patchs are not patchs, you must read them in this way “Give us more time to finish this product.” TO FINISH. After that you can call any other piece of sotware that came patch.

I can’t belive that noone in the beta testing has never hitted that damn “A” button or said “People this radar system is a mess.”
What are guys giving rates on magazines actually rates? What a game WILL be? or what is it?
I can understand that a month after the game come out someone is starting to say “Hey! there is something going wrong with TDC” “ Oh yes torpedoes are not going at the right speed”. The update that come out is a PATCH.

Perhaps people is bored to buy unfinished products (I am).

Ubi is trying to hit two birds with one stone. I am with you Neal about that the hit of the torpedo is nice, that the water flowing from periscope is nice and I can add that I am able to go inside a convoy and look really near a destroyer or a battleship without using the free camera, “Woow what amazing texture has this battleship”.

The world decides that beauty is better that functionality that is why the simulation is dying.
And all of this is not about rivetcounters.

Tnx and best regards.

[Ducimus]

And all of this is not about rivetcounters.

True, its also about the people who seem to think that making a game is the same as making a car. And then blaming the makers of the game for their every woe, when it's realy the stiff suits at the corporate officers of the publisher who's only worried about "the bottom line" so they can keep their fat salaries ,that they should be angry at.

I would be surpised if we see another submarine simulator for a very long time to come. Niche market, "the bottom line" is marginal by comparision to other game genre's, and the audience of said market is impossible to satisfy. So why bother?

[leeclose]

Yeah nice article apart from the sarcasm and enough bugs in sh4 to fill a ant hill:yep:

[Snowman999]

True, its also about the people who seem to think that making a game is the same as making a car.

I think most folks with beefs have compared this game to the making of other games. Numerous examples have been cited of games that have not shipped in the unfinished state SH4 did. It can be done.

The other poster is also correct to point out the difference between a patch (corrects faults) and a file that attempts to finish functionality left out due to schedules.


And then blaming the makers of the game for their every woe, when it's realy the stiff suits at the corporate officers of the publisher who's only worried about "the bottom line" so they can keep their fat salaries ,that they should be angry at.



I don't care whose fault it is. My $50 is my $50. It's a consumer product competing with lots of others for my available cash. I simply don't buy the argument that we should buy unfinished, broken software in order to get a chance for more of the same in three years. Markets don't work like that.

I would be surpised if we see another submarine simulator for a very long time to come. Niche market, "the bottom line" is marginal by comparision to other game genre's, and the audience of said market is impossible to satisfy. So why bother?

Yeah, lots of those former sim devs ran to MMOs because "everybody knew" that was where the gold was. Guess what? There's room for a couple at most.

Some ran to consoles. Guess what? Three competing platforms eating each other alive and restrictive licenses to get in the game.

The truth is we don't know what the returns on SH3 were. What we do know is they were sufficient to trigger SH4. Three years from now, who knows?

I also wish people would stop pulling out the niche flag. SH4 is not a niche product. In today's PC game universe no game that attains big-box distribution is a niche product--the economics themselves refute that claim. Want niche? Go look at Matrix games. SH3 had six-figure sales. Niche games are more on the order of 10,000.

I see a macro problem with Ubi's SH4 design decisions. They want "simmers" like us, but they don't want to make an actual sim. They want volumes available at big box brick&mortar, so they go for eye candy (but really don't as the FSAA etc. threads show.) They want to stay at $50 retail, so they compromise dev budgets, when an $80 retail and on-line download is a possible option that changes the business model, allows break-even at lower volumes (no MDF funds), and allows budget to go toward code rather than printed manuals and fancy tin boxes.

Overall I'm unsympathetic. They made their bed by trying to make a game, calling it a sim, insisting on casual gamers then not delivering wow graphics. Pick a target audience and design for it. But don't call it a sim if it's a game.

[tommyk]

I dont care for pukemon games or such. Make me a game I like and I buy it. If there is no game, then I do something else. no big deal...

I would not blame the customer if he does not like my product... I would just change my product or sell to someone else...

[Ducimus]

Overall I'm unsympathetic.

So am i, but i dont need to write a 4 page essay to illustrate that. Don't like the game? Think its buggy? outraged for whatever reason? Tough ****. It's all your going to get. People need to either suck it up and deal with it, Take it back and get a refund, or trade it in as a used game for store credit. Whining about it here like some consumer crusader accomplish's nothing.

[Skweetis]

I can’t belive that noone in the beta testing has never hitted that damn “A” button or said “People this radar system is a mess.”

I have to say that this WAS probably said, but creating a new build of a program in a timely fashion is a game of triage. There were probably things that were of more critical importance that needed to be addressed first.

Beta testing is MUCH more complex, boring and time consuming than one might think. A program is a living, breathing animal. Almost everything is related in someway to something else. Make one simple change of code in one function and it has a cascade effect on umpteen other parts of the program that you never considered a possibility.

Using the car building explanation, this would be like having your brake lights be in someway connected to your tires. Light bulb goes out, and you change it, the tires go flat and your gas tank starts leaking. Sounds odd, but this is essentially what can happen in programing.

[Snowman999]

So am i, but i dont need to write a 4 page essay to illustrate that. Don't like the game? Think its buggy? outraged for whatever reason? Tough ****.

Another apologist for mediocrity. My opinion here is as valid as anyones. Probably more so, as I know submarines, not just submarine sims.


It's all your going to get. People need to either suck it up and deal with it, Take it back and get a refund, or trade it in as a used game for store credit. Whining about it here like some consumer crusader accomplish's nothing.


It's that attitude that brought the world the Yugo.

Call it whining; I call it truth. I haven't bought the game. I may not. I followed its development for two years and was primed to get it ASAP, but these forums have done their job for me. I won't buy it until it's finished. I have also advised two friends and family it's not finished. I'll continue to do so, thanks.

[DanielMcintyre]

CTD is only a single issue, there are other gamebreaking issues that are as bad as well - surfacing or diving destroying your periscope being one of the worst - you really cant play a career at the moment since a periscope, crew and TC are all essential requirements and they do not work.

While its true that coupling is a real issue in programming; when you go to programming school you learn to design loosely coupled modular programs and functions / procedures to avoid things like the gas tank making your tires go flat - ie The gas tank has no relation to the tires, therefore it would be designed to never have an effect on the tires at all and if it did it would be labelled poor engineering. The whole idea of OOP was based around the concept of loose coupling imo.

[Skweetis]

While its true that coupling is a real issue in programming; when you go to programming school you learn to design loosely coupled modular programs and functions / procedures to avoid things like the gas tank making your tires go flat - ie The gas tank has no relation to the tires, therefore it would be designed to never have an effect on the tires at all and if it did it would be labelled poor engineering. The whole idea of OOP was based around the concept of loose coupling imo.

Without detracting much more from the original thread, I whole heartedly agree with you. However, time constraints tend to push things along to quickly, and while you can plan and design to your hearts content, because at its basically that, a plan. When it comes to crunch time, often in many things a plan gets thrown out the window in order to just get things done. In ages gone by I worked in structural engineering, and the tendering process can be a mad house where months of careful design gets ripped appart in a matter of hours to beat everyone else out to get the contract. Then get to the fabrication process, and all hell breaks loose because unanticipated things occur in the field. Now I'm firmly seated in the software industry and I have seen the same thing in different ways.

And in regards to the gas tank to tires relationship, I see it completely different... the amount of fuel in my tank corellates proportionately to the potential energy I have to apply through the engine and drive train to then on to the road via the tires. In design, maybe if I had of gone with a solar solution, it wouldn't have leaked, but the sun always sets....:smug: [my tone in this is entirely friendly and playful]

So before we hijack any further, I'd be happy to discuss this further in the general forum!

Cheers Dan!

Edit: PS I havent had my periscope damaged while surfacing/diving yet... though I have experienced some of the issues others have.

[Karl-Heinz Jaeger]

*Beeeeeeeeeeep* goes the phone on UbiCorp's desk. Putting his copy of Vintage Car Enthusiast down for a moment, he reaches over and presses a button. "What is it, Diane?" UbiCorp asks. "Sorry to disturb you, Mr.UbiCorp, I have Mr.RivetCounter holding on two for you" pipes the secretary."Thank you Diane. I'll take it in the conference room. Can you ask Salesguy to bring up the latest figures after lunch please?" UbiCorp responds, stretching in his leather recliner. "Certainly, sir". There is a click as Diane cuts the line. Taking a minute to gather himself, UbiCorp adjusts his suit in the mirror before stepping out of his office and strolling down the corridor.

A moment later, UbiCorp enters the conference room, his colleagues chattering amongst themselves as he takes his seat. PRBloke offers coffee, politely. UbiCorp declines, equally as polite and takes the memo nervously pushed in front of him by SubDev. "I hope this isn't another budget increase request, SubDev" UbiCorp snaps angrily. SubDev backs away slowly, prostrating himself low beneath the steely gaze directed his way, slinking back to his chair like a wounded cur. Snorting in disgust, UbiCorp turns his attention to the little gizmo recessed into the table in front of him. "Gentlemen, RivetCounter is holding for us" he intones, "lets not keep him waiting". Instantly the voices fall silent, all papers are placed neatly back in their parent folders and every pair of eyes snap in unison towards the head of the table. Pressing the button beneath his finger, UbiCorp clears his throat.

"Hello RivetCounter, glad you could join us today. I haven't had a chance to see the latest figures yet, but I am assured that...". "Your game sucks, man" the voice on the other end cuts him off. A silence hangs in the air. UbiCorp adjust his tie and regains composure. "I'm sure you don't mean that, RivetCounter, all the market research indicated that....". "There are no death screens, no AI subs, and there are too many bugs to name in a single afternoon. In short, your game sucks, man". The silence returns. ResearchBoy looks at ResearchGirl, PRBloke frowns and consults his palm pilot, SubDev begins to sweat. UbiCorp sighs and rubs his forehead. "I'm sorry you feel that way, RivetCounter but we've been over this before. Simulations are what we call a 'Niche Game'. There isn't exactly a HUGE market for them, so our resources are limited in their development. We have to stick to a limited budget and make the deadlines we set" he explains patiently. "Not to mention the ton of historical innacuracies, the really crappy lack of anti-aliasing support and that......godawful thing that passes for TDC" RivetCounter continues, without missing a beat. Before anyone can answer, another voice chimes in over the line. "Sorry to interrupt, sir, but I have Mr.SubSimmer on the other line, he says it's urgent" Diane tinkles cheerfully. "Very well Diane, connect the three of us, if you would please" UbiCorp sighs and responds dejectedly. The secretary dutifully obliges, and clicks off the line.

"Hi guys! Arguing again?" SubSimmer teases. UbiCorp looks uncomfortable, ResearchBoy peeks down ResearchGirl's shirt, PRBloke fidgets restlessly, SubDev starts to twitch violently. "There are certain differences of opinion alright" UbiCorp admits "but we are trying to...". "Thought as much. Thats why I called. I have an idea I thought I might share with both of you" SubSimmer offers. "Please make it quick" RivetCounter demands, "I've got a LAN game soon and I need to mod my installation with the latest update of UberLeetHistoricalSubMod". "You don't get out much, do you" UbiCorp snickers. "Sunlight hurts my skin" RivetCounter shrieks, "and besides I wouldn't have to mod the game if you guys did your job right".

"Um...yeah." SubSimmer continues."Anyway, I was thinking, What if instead of whining like children all the darn time, you morons actually worked together to produce the ultimate subsim? UbiCorp, instead of asking TwitchGamer what he likes, get the research people to talk to the gamers who have more than just a passing interest in the genre. Niche game aside, theres nothing stopping you from investing the time and effort needed to make a really cracking, stable and bug free sim for RivetCounter and his pals to enjoy and to also make it fully moddable and customizable to their taste, should they so desire. So what if it doesn't appeal to a broad range, its a sim! It isn't supposed to. Add twenty bucks to the price tag and it will offset the drop in number of units sold. I dont think RivetCounter would mind shelling out the extra noodle, I'm only a casual simmer and I wouldn't mind". RivetCounter agrees, PRBloke ponders, ResearchBoy picks his nose, SubDev wets his pants.

"RivetCounter, instead of making posts on the forums complaining that the colour of the boogers up your crewmens nose isn't historically accurate, take off your tin foil hat and work with your friends to generate serious, workable ideas to incorporate into the next game. Realise you can't have absolutely everything right out of the box, and keep the wonderful mods coming as you always have. I'm sure UbiCorp would offer extensive support to cater to your yearnings for realism if you agreed to a slight hike in price" UbiCorp agrees this time, ResearchGirl and PRBloke both look disgustedly at ResearchBoy, SubDev turns blue and makes choking noises."So, everyone agrees then?" Subsimmer concludes. "Sounds feasible to me" UbiCorp nods. "Cool, man" RivetCounter concurs.

"Right then thats settled, except for one last thing......GIVE THE DARN DEVELOPERS A RAISE! They take way too much flak for their efforts, and are totally underappreciated for the awesome and innovative work they put in despite the monetary and time constraints placed on them. They deserve our thanks and a ton of stuff more so give them the support and praise they so rightly deserve, dammit! Alright I'm outta here" The line clicks as SubSimmer hangs up. SubDev can no longer contain himself. First, a gurgling noise escapes from somewhere around his neck, he then stiffens in his chair and begins to shudder and then finally collapses in a gibbering heap on the floor. The whole room falls silent. ResearchBoy looks at ResearchGirl, then they both gape at SubDev. PRBloke's eyes dart from SubDev to UbiCorp and back again. UbiCorp's mouth hangs open in astonishment, his eyes blinking incredulously. Then RivetCounter pops back in over the line. "So, uh, ResearchGirl, you doin anything this Saturday or what, man?"

[Skweetis]

(Lots of really entertaining good stuff! Just read it above)

**insert clap and cheer emote here!**

Well written.

[Immacolata]

So am i, but i dont need to write a 4 page essay to illustrate that. Don't like the game? Think its buggy? outraged for whatever reason? Tough ****.

Another apologist for mediocrity. My opinion here is as valid as anyones. Probably more so, as I know submarines, not just submarine sims.


It's all your going to get. People need to either suck it up and deal with it, Take it back and get a refund, or trade it in as a used game for store credit. Whining about it here like some consumer crusader accomplish's nothing.


It's that attitude that brought the world the Yugo.

Call it whining; I call it truth. I haven't bought the game. I may not. I followed its development for two years and was primed to get it ASAP, but these forums have done their job for me. I won't buy it until it's finished. I have also advised two friends and family it's not finished. I'll continue to do so, thanks.

Just tell me, how many of the us subs was build on time and on budget?

Mediocrity lives within budget constraints, perfectionism needs unlimited time and cash to work.

[Skweetis]

You could look at the development of the Type XXI for example.... far from mediocrity, but also far from being a viable and effective weapon until it was too late.

[Takeda Shingen]

Probably more so, as I know submarines, not just submarine sims.

So do half of the members on this forum. This place is crawling with vets, technicians, and even some guys that worked for EB. SubSim is not home to simply casual enthusiasts.

[mookiemookie]

It's a consumer product competing with lots of others for my available cash.

Oh you mean all the other submarine sim games out there? :roll:

[Snowman999]

So do half of the members on this forum. This place is crawling with vets, technicians, and even some guys that worked for EB. SubSim is not home to simply casual enthusiasts.


Half? Not hardly.

[Snowman999]

No, I mean what I said. For example, today I will take part of the money I've held for SH4 and buy Season 6 of "Seinfeld, on sale for the great price of $19.99. A quality product.

[Snowman999]

Just tell me, how many of the us subs was build on time and on budget?



Well, mine, for one.


Mediocrity lives within budget constraints, perfectionism needs unlimited time and cash to work.


A nice strawman. I don't ask for perfection. I ask for functionality. I'm being offered mediocrity. Perhaps someday the game will be patched to functionality. At that time I'll consider buying it. I refuse to play Ubi's game of getting my money early and placing the risk on me that they'll perform.

[Immacolata]

Now that is entirely understandable. People deciding to not buy the game because they feel the quality isn't good enoug, thats talking sense. However I understood the word mediocrity as meaning unimpressive, or just dull, not below the envelope of "functional". I'd call that poor. But what ever people's reasons are for not buying SHIV, they are all fine by me. It is just the board drama queening that gets to you after a while. Somehow people believe it is of utmost importance for the ROTW to hear their many complaints and reasons for not wanting to play the game. I wish more people got to the point like you, fast :)

[MarkQuinn]

If simulations are truly dying, then we have to look after the wellfare of the sims we have already. Does anyone know how well SH4 is selling? I don't know myself, but I'll tell you if they're making money on it then Ubi will stay in this niche regardless of rivettcounters (LOL first for me as well).

I think, for them, the bigger problem is where do you go from here? We have the Atlantic U-boats. We have the pacific subs. Now, in the future, do you expand the game, offering two campaigns, the ability to play for the Axis OR Allies, and open up the entire world (Atlantic and Pacific) and store it all on two DVDs next time? Or do you move into the dawn of nuclear subs, leaving the WW2 theater and entering a fictional Cold War turned WW3 ala Red Storm Rising?

[dean_acheson]

It's a consumer product competing with lots of others for my available cash.

Oh you mean all the other submarine sim games out there? :roll:

Hear hear Mookie!!!

All I can think when I read the harshest flamers is, if this so bad, why don't you go buy that other Pacific WW2 subsim that came out this year.

For God's sake, we have a great product here, and it is fun to play, and I love it. When folks act like it is some kind of reincarnation of 'Big Rigs: Over the Road Racing" I just feel like tearing my hair out and ordering another copy of SH4 in hope that that might be the copy that gets UBI over the hump to decide to make DC2.

Get in and push! Quit knifing the tires!

[Takeda Shingen]

So do half of the members on this forum. This place is crawling with vets, technicians, and even some guys that worked for EB. SubSim is not home to simply casual enthusiasts.


Half? Not hardly.

Hang around for awhile; you'll see.

[jerryt]

BTW, I do not think the paint color in the control room is historically correct....simulator yeah right......:rotfl:

Yeah, and their beards don't grow over the course of the patrol.....:damn: ...:lol:

[AVGWarhawk]

BTW, I do not think the paint color in the control room is historically correct....simulator yeah right......:rotfl:
Yeah, and their beards don't grow over the course of the patrol.....:damn: ...:lol:

Yeah, did you notice? It is like a shade too light. Just what kind of simulator are they trying to pass off here?

[nfitzsimmons]

Rivetcounters- lol. Never heard that one before. But boy oh boy. I wish everyone who ever moaned had read that tiny little passage about game companies not wanting to play in the simulation genre anymore.

I think the internet actually killed the sim genre, since a maltorrent of rivetcounters could now pester the devs about their lack of historically rivetting.

Next time you catch me whine over a sim, shoot me please.


I JUST hope it doesn't deter the current devs too much. I do hope they see some positive and happy players here on the forums too. Such as myself. Right now Ive berthed USS Wossname to play some Europa Universalis III patch 1.2.1 :) I spent 25 hours patrolling SHIV, so my 50$ have not been spent badly, to say otherwise would be very ungrateful. And once patch 1.2 docks I am sure Ill take the fleet boat out for another patrol. Or possibly 5 :)

Oh, lest we forget. I have played Wow last year and this year too. Now you've seen NOTHING untill you've seen the amount of whining and rivetcounting taking place on the wow forums. Golly.

I think the problem is that the sim genre has all the WORST rivetcounters AND the money is small. Im sure the devs and the publishers could stomach much more whining before giving up the ghost, if they could listen to the jingle of coins generated after 8-10 mio sold copies :P

The term "rivetcounters" dates back to the early days of model railroading. Been there, done that.

[Platapus]

[quote=nfitzsimmons
Oh, lest we forget. I have played Wow last year and this year too. Now you've seen NOTHING untill you've seen the amount of whining and rivetcounting taking place on the wow forums. Golly. .[/quote]

You aint kiddin. I had to stop reading the wow forums. Them guys is rabid:nope:

BTW did you read the 1 April patch message about the new tin foil hat in WoW. Pretty funny

[nfitzsimmons]

[quote=nfitzsimmons
Oh, lest we forget. I have played Wow last year and this year too. Now you've seen NOTHING untill you've seen the amount of whining and rivetcounting taking place on the wow forums. Golly. .

You aint kiddin. I had to stop reading the wow forums. Them guys is rabid:nope:

BTW did you read the 1 April patch message about the new tin foil hat in WoW. Pretty funny[/quote]

I saw the same sort of rabid flaming at flightsim.com about the people who had the audacity to actually admit that they liked Microsoft Flight Sim X. It's much better now. And the first patch for FS X isn't even due until around the end of this month.

[Snowman999]

Hang around for awhile; you'll see.


I've been lurking for over five years.

[Snowman999]

I think, for them, the bigger problem is where do you go from here? We have the Atlantic U-boats. We have the pacific subs. Now, in the future, do you expand the game, offering two campaigns, the ability to play for the Axis OR Allies, and open up the entire world (Atlantic and Pacific) and store it all on two DVDs next time? Or do you move into the dawn of nuclear subs, leaving the WW2 theater and entering a fictional Cold War turned WW3 ala Red Storm Rising?


I personally don't see them ever combining the two theaters; ther'es more money to be made re-doing each sequentially. I think most fans would rather see deeper depths plumbed in each than a more surface treatment of a combo, and for $50 I think that's what we'd get.

There are lots and lots of things left undone in both worlds, from wolfpacks in the ETO to a real, culturally-correct portrayal of the WWII USN. I'm not sure Ubi Romania can do the latter (I certainly couldn't sim the Romanian army's culture), but with help (anybody else remember Bud Gruner?) they could correct some of the worst howlers (the Purple Heart is a good example.) Either way, I hope they settle on a target audience and do the best game they can for that audience.

On the Cold War, I think that's a problem. As soon as you go to nukes you inherently go inside th eboat and stay there. SSN/SSK/SSBN ops are inherently non-visual, unlike WWII-era sub ops. There was a lot of sneaking around, but not a lot of booms. And some of the really good stuff is still classified. In terms of audience, if you need casual gamers to make the volume I think you die. Most people have seen a couple of WWII sub movies, but few young people know anything about the Cold War. I was recently talking to a university sophomore with good grades who was unaware Germany used to be two countries. Europeans probably can't grasp that, but it's true over here across the pond.

[Mush Martin]

I Feel there is validity in the notion that we are our own worst
enemies at least. Critique is a tool sarcasm is a weapon.
we tend to go with the absolute of Minutae but by and large
with one or two obvious exceptions coming from me, that is
what we are into, we arent really likely to stop being into
polishing the cannonball and refining the historical model.
and the corporations are likely to maintain the time is money
priority that doesnt produce worldbeating minutae. so we are
always going to be a largely critical group even with a smash
hit like sh3, and unless we become a larger market (which hopefully
sh4 will do) we may be left out of the land of living Genre's
Critique is fine identifying a problem is fine offering a solution
is better but if short on a solution understanding will do.

someone last week was trying to get everyone focused on the
dev's perspective and what it takes to make a video game from
scratch even with a proven game engine. i think his point was
valid it would be very disheartening to pour your time and skill
into something for a yr or two and have the community it was
crafted for balk at it. and profit is the only language the
devs bosses speak they dont care about whether or not
its a beautifully detailed and accurate VIIC41 or if its a frankenboot
like mine, they just want to report a profit to the shareholders
raise the stockprice and sell there option so they can move back
over to up and coming pork belly futures,

but when the corp says to the disheartened dev team
"what is a viable exciting worldbeating company promoting project we can
do", it is the disheartened devs that will say "well mario kart looks like an up and comer and those red tortoise shells are a real mans weapon"

[SteamWake]

undocumented sonar directional controls (use the "Home" and "End" keys for this)

Woot ! It was worth the read just to learn this alone ! :p