Anyone have the text to the poem in the opening movie?

[Seaweed]

SOunds like shakespeare. Anyone know what its from?

[Sh!tler]

Unfortunately the video and audio in the opening cinematic is such low quality, its practically impossible to hear everything the guy is saying.

[deamyont]

http://www.dartmouth.edu/~milton/reading_room/on_time/index.shtml

Here it is

[Seaweed]

What are the dev's trying to say by choosing that poem?

[DeepCore]

I'm not sure what they want to say with the intro but I can say that I like it! It's refreshingly diffferent from the usual dumb effect-hammer-hero-super-action-intro.

Deepcore

[Tarnish_UK]

Pah! I got sidetracked and then beaten to it! :)

"On Time"

by John Milton 1608 to 1674

Fly envious time til thy run out thy race
Call on the lazy leaden-stepping hours
Whose speed is but the heavy plummets pace
And glut thyself with what thy womb devours
Which is more then what is false and vain
And merely mortal dross;
So little is our loss
So little is thy gain
For when as each thing bad thou hast entombed
And last of all, thy greedy self consumed,
Then long Enternity shall greet our bliss
With an individual kiss
And joy shall overtake us as a flood
When evertything that is sincerely good
And perfectly divine
With Truth, and Peace, and Love shall ever shine
About the supreme throne
Of him, t'whose happy making sight alone
When once our heaven'ly soul shall climb
Then all this earthly grossness quit
Attired with stars, we shall forever sit
Triumphing over Death, and Chance, and thee O' Time

[joea]

What are the dev's trying to say by choosing that poem?

What so you think they are trying to say? ;)

Hint: Read the links Milton talks about triumphing over time and death.

[MadMike]

S-37's skipper Thomas Baskett used to quote Milton's "Lycidas" ("War in the Boats", Ruhe, 41) to impress the Aussie babes, so who knows...

Yours, Mike

[Hitman]

IMO it's an attempt to highlight the nonsense of the war and how the only thing that can be highlighted on it is the individual valor actions, unconnected from the general war politics. Honour to those who have done inmortal actions, based on inmortal and really important matters (Sacrifice, honor, courage, idealism), while all the rest is just unimportant and will fade away with time. i.e. when time passes by, you no longer care about who started the war and why, but you tend to remember the sacrifice and courageous actions of those involved.

P.S. anyone who has read the Iliad by Homero has found in the book more references to how it started and why, or to how courageously the main actors involved acted? ;)

[melendir]

Also it could be just that, someone who had final say of the intro just liked the poem. :hmm:

You guys are right, it is definately different from usual hero stuff intros...
That reader guys voice is kinda creepy.
Gave me a bit uneasy twilight zone feeling :D

[SteamWake]

I cant watch that opening video it creeps me out :huh:

[joea]

IMO it's an attempt to highlight the nonsense of the war and how the only thing that can be highlighted on it is the individual valor actions, unconnected from the general war politics. Honour to those who have done inmortal actions, based on inmortal and really important matters (Sacrifice, honor, courage, idealism), while all the rest is just unimportant and will fade away with time. i.e. when time passes by, you no longer care about who started the war and why, but you tend to remember the sacrifice and courageous actions of those involved.

P.S. anyone who has read the Iliad by Homero has found in the book more references to how it started and why, or to how courageously the main actors involved acted? ;)

Don't agree but I see your point.

[Skubber]

I cant watch that opening video it creeps me out :huh:
Yes, I think that's the point.

Am I the only one who actually likes the intro?

To my mind, the video footage is meant to be at odds with Milton's poem.

Think of the line "an individual kiss." (Right when the ship explodes in a fireball.)
Milton is talking here about the moment after death where we are greeted by the divine presence.

Kind of the ultimate post-modern juxtaposition.

What are we to make of a society, a world, a universe, where Christian values are somehow supposed to coexist with nazi death camps, or the Bataan death march?
(Milton was staunchly, though unconventionally, Christian.)

The poem is talking about the soul's triumph over all of this, even a triumph over time.
But I don't think Milton could have concieved of a time three hundred years in the future where we would so systematically set about destroying each other. What triumph could anyone see in this?

I like the intro's topsy-turvy comment on something no one can really make sense of.
What are we to make of a society were friends socialize over a simulation-game that relives this most savage period of our history?

Ours is a world of strange juxtapositions.
Kinda odd, isn't it?
Makes ya think.:hmm:

[CaptainCox]

Any of you guys tried this
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=110756
;) yep banging the drum here...Drum (SS-228)

[joea]

I cant watch that opening video it creeps me out :huh:
Yes, I think that's the point.

Am I the only one who actually likes the intro?



No. :|\\ Agree with your analysis.

[Mush Martin]

I cant watch that opening video it creeps me out :huh:
Yes, I think that's the point.

Am I the only one who actually likes the intro?

To my mind, the video footage is meant to be at odds with Milton's poem.

Think of the line "an individual kiss." (Right when the ship explodes in a fireball.)
Milton is talking here about the moment after death where we are greeted by the divine presence.

Kind of the ultimate post-modern juxtaposition.

What are we to make of a society, a world, a universe, where Christian values are somehow supposed to coexist with nazi death camps, or the Bataan death march?
(Milton was staunchly, though unconventionally, Christian.)

The poem is talking about the soul's triumph over all of this, even a triumph over time.
But I don't think Milton could have concieved of a time three hundred years in the future where we would so systematically set about destroying each other. What triumph could anyone see in this?

I like the intro's topsy-turvy comment on something no one can really make sense of.
What are we to make of a society were friends socialize over a simulation-game that relives this most savage period of our history?

Ours is a world of strange juxtapositions.
Kinda odd, isn't it?
Makes ya think.:hmm:

Well I love the dialogue in the intro as I love milton
but I find the reflective nature of the verse a bit
overwhelmed by supersonic clouds and fast scene cuts.
also did anyone else think the IJN Flag on that cruiser
looked a little stiff?

[jdski]

I think he's saying when were dead, we don't need to worry about wearing a watch anymore.:yep:

[Radtgaeb]

Yeah, I don't know why people complain about this intro, I, for one, love it.

The only beef I have is the visible crosshair when the deckgun is viewed at one point in the video (:rotfl:). But other than that it's great.

John Milton is a wonderful poet. I'm still a Junior in high school (laugh at the young'n) but I'm in a college-level Advanced Placement literature class and did a month long unit on Milton. Also, Milton was a highly religious man (a puritain, to be exact, linked to Cromwell and the reformation) and being a "reformed" baptist as I am, I'm highly drawn to his works. I definately think he's talking about the final triumph passing of death into life due to holy salvation mentioned often in the Bible. Talk about it cynically if you want to...but it's a great poem nonetheless, and I share his views.

So yeah. WONDERFUL intro, UBI Romania!! I nearly passed a cat from sheer joy when I heard the poem after install.

[SteamWake]

The "creeps me out" was meant as a back handed compliment.

It (the intro) is very ... esoteric..

I just hope they dident put a ton of work into that instead of programming in imperal units :-?

[DeepSix]

I think it's actually one of the best intro clips for a video game I've seen. It's a little dramatic at moments (my least favorite is the "Kiss me you big Yamato" moment), but overall the poem really works. Dunno - maybe it's the English major in me. Think about it another way: if they'd had someone reciting "cry havoc and loose the dogs of war," we'd all barf. Well, all of us except maybe Patrick Stewart. Anyway - point is, I think the video is a nice balance of eye candy and the fun of playing the game along with the serious aspects of what the game is about.

Just two cents, there....

[Snowman999]

I think it's actually one of the best intro clips for a video game I've seen. It's a little dramatic at moments (my least favorite is the "Kiss me you big Yamato" moment), but overall the poem really works. Dunno - maybe it's the English major in me. Think about it another way: if they'd had someone reciting "cry havoc and loose the dogs of war," we'd all barf. Well, all of us except maybe Patrick Stewart. Anyway - point is, I think the video is a nice balance of eye candy and the fun of playing the game along with the serious aspects of what the game is about.

Just two cents, there....

Milton is fine, and English-accented readers are fine, and war-is-all-hell is fine, but not in this game. You want that put it in SH3's intro--those guys started the killing and they lost their gamble.

Historically, the intro does not work for me vis a vis the USN submarine service. We were attacked, brutally, without warning, during diplomatic negotiations. Our men in the boats weren't thinking about souls' redemption or immortal sacrifice or anything else in this poem. Take a look at the second picture from the left in the link below. It's the crew of my dad's boat near the end of the war, about the time we nuked the folks who ruined a fine Sunday morning in Hawaii. That banner IS history, but not Milton's sort.

http://home.flash.net/~stromain/BlueGill/ss-242.html

[Von Hinten]

For me it's the combination of the spoken words and the fact that it's all in-game footage. 9 out of 10 intros look fantastic but are pre-rendered ones in a quality that you'll miss as soon as you actually begin to play.

With this one the images simply make me want to play SHIV even more than before I clicked the icon on my desktop, knowing that I'll see exactly those beautiful images.

Very well done intro, I absolutely love it. :up:

[Edit - Just read your reply Snowman999 and I can't help feeling just a little bit dim now, thinking just about my own personal bit of fun. Your comment hits the nail I guess, I'll now look at that intro in a completely different way. Thanks for your point of view m8.]

[LordHawke]

I was just reflecting on the poem on my way home from work. It struck me then that it captures the mood of someone gradually choking to death in a sinking steel tube miles down the sea with no hope of escape.

The poor man sees his mates drop off one by one, all around is darkness and silence. But there is a resigned, yet heroic, embrace of the approaching Death, knowing that God is waiting for him 'on the other side'.

It reminds us that the submarining business was not all about 'La Gloire', but that the brave men who served on those boats faced death, and all it terrors, all the time. Certainly something worth reflecting on as we play the game.

Kudos to the devs for a most untypical, yet appropriate, intro. :up:

[Snowman999]

I was just reflecting on the poem on my way home from work. It struck me then that it captures the mood of someone gradually choking to death in a sinking steel tube miles down the sea with no hope of escape.

The poor man sees his mates drop off one by one, all around is darkness and silence. But there is a resigned, yet heroic, embrace of the approaching Death, knowing that God is waiting for him 'on the other side'.


Nice imagery, but complete bollocks. Sinking to collapse depth wasn't going to be this peaceful. Very loud, lots of screaming and frantic action.

And death? Well, a major think-tank in the 1970s did a modeling study about what would happen inside a pressure hull in the seconds between collapse and death of the crew. For you scientific types out there they figured that there would be a dismembering phase as metal moving past other pieces sliced and diced the crew, then a "dieseling" phase as the pressure spiked to cause the bodies to combust, probably while still conscious. But not to worry--the fires would soon be extinguished.

[nfitzsimmons]

I was just reflecting on the poem on my way home from work. It struck me then that it captures the mood of someone gradually choking to death in a sinking steel tube miles down the sea with no hope of escape.

The poor man sees his mates drop off one by one, all around is darkness and silence. But there is a resigned, yet heroic, embrace of the approaching Death, knowing that God is waiting for him 'on the other side'.


Nice imagery, but complete bollocks. Sinking to collapse depth wasn't going to be this peaceful. Very loud, lots of screaming and frantic action.

And death? Well, a major think-tank in the 1970s did a modeling study about what would happen inside a pressure hull in the seconds between collapse and death of the crew. For you scientific types out there they figured that there would be a dismembering phase as metal moving past other pieces sliced and diced the crew, then a "dieseling" phase as the pressure spiked to cause the bodies to combust, probably while still conscious. But not to worry--the fires would soon be extinguished.

On the other hand if you're sitting on the bottom at 200 feet with no power, batteries failing, flooded compartments on either side of you, and the CO2 building up you might tend to think that way.

[Snowman999]

[Edit - Just read your reply Snowman999 and I can't help feeling just a little bit dim now, thinking just about my own personal bit of fun. Your comment hits the nail I guess, I'll now look at that intro in a completely different way. Thanks for your point of view m8.]


Thanks.

I know I'm naive, in this hyper-PC corporate enviro we live in, but I'd hoped the game would take the opportunity to do even a modicum of historical education for the young people increasingly ignorant of these events. Some of the men in these boats hung out at our house in Hawaii, fifteen years older and wiser, and they weren't robotic killing machines, nor were they Milton-lovers. They were guys who grew up in the Depression and then, just as things looked a little better, got handed a s**t sandwich by foreign governments and forces that stole a lot of their youth.

They did a hard, nasty job and did it well. Yes, there was racism and hatred involved. That's war. (Talk to somebody just back from Iraq; some things never change.) But they knew they were doing the right thing and that faiilng to win would change the course of history in a bad, bad way.

Modern Americans don't viscerally understand that feeling any more. Maybe if 9/11 had been perpetrated by a naiton-state, one that was professing peace in direct negotiations in Washington that very day, our citizens would understand the rage that led to unrestricted submarine ops, machine-gnning surviving soldiers in the water, and, yes, the banner in that photo, three-plus years later.

I know it's too much to expect Ubi to teach history, but I hope, after seeing the mods from SH3, that someone can quickly gin up at least a USS Arizona model so I may render honors on my way out to sea . . .

[Von Hinten]

I know it's too much to expect Ubi to teach history, but I hope, after seeing the mods from SH3, that someone can quickly gin up at least a USS Arizona model so I may render honors on my way out to sea . . .
I hear you m8, so here's another vote to resurrect that ship from history into this game. http://www.gprt.net/images/icon_salute.gif

[DeepSix]

I think it's actually one of the best intro clips for a video game I've seen. It's a little dramatic at moments (my least favorite is the "Kiss me you big Yamato" moment), but overall the poem really works. Dunno - maybe it's the English major in me. Think about it another way: if they'd had someone reciting "cry havoc and loose the dogs of war," we'd all barf. Well, all of us except maybe Patrick Stewart. Anyway - point is, I think the video is a nice balance of eye candy and the fun of playing the game along with the serious aspects of what the game is about.

Just two cents, there....

Milton is fine, and English-accented readers are fine, and war-is-all-hell is fine, but not in this game. You want that put it in SH3's intro--those guys started the killing and they lost their gamble.

Historically, the intro does not work for me vis a vis the USN submarine service. We were attacked, brutally, without warning, during diplomatic negotiations. Our men in the boats weren't thinking about souls' redemption or immortal sacrifice or anything else in this poem. Take a look at the second picture from the left in the link below. It's the crew of my dad's boat near the end of the war, about the time we nuked the folks who ruined a fine Sunday morning in Hawaii. That banner IS history, but not Milton's sort.

http://home.flash.net/~stromain/BlueGill/ss-242.html

With respect, I think you missed the point of my post, and -- again, with respect -- I know I'm missing yours. My grandfather survived the Battle of the Bulge so I think it's ok to say I know a thing or two about rich men's wars and poor men's fights.

Just my opinion, but I think the video actually underscores the sacrifices made by the "Great Generation" rather than minimizing them. But it is, after all, just a game video. To put it another way, I was pleasantly suprised to see the video take an even remotely serious approach, instead of a "run-and-gun" deal with loud guitars. If I have a complaint it's the "Wolves of the Pacific" subtitle as I don't think that's an accurate description. But that's a quibble.

Would it have been better if they'd had someone playing "Sakura" on a koto instead?

No hard feelings, here, I'm not looking for agreement so much as understanding where you're coming from. What, exactly, is "Milton's" sort of history? How is his poem "On Time" any less appropriate than "Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori?"

[Edit: Second (or third) to the suggestion to include Arizona. And West Virginia, and Oglala, and Downes, and so on. Currently, Pearl Harbor looks way too "untouched" for December 9-10.]

[joea]

...
No hard feelings, here, I'm not looking for agreement so much as understanding where you're coming from. What, exactly, is "Milton's" sort of history? How is his poem "On Time" any less appropriate than "Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori?"

[Edit: Second (or third) to the suggestion to include Arizona. And West Virginia, and Oglala, and Downes, and so on. Currently, Pearl Harbor looks way too "untouched" for December 9-10.]

I see where you both are coming from, but nothing snowman99 wrote is in anyway an endorsment of Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori at all. What Milton is saying is nothing about the physical part of death being peaceful but about the spiritual part of the hereafter...as was said he was a Christian.

[Safe-Keeper]

Am I the only one who actually likes the intro?No. I agree with my fellow poster here:I'm not sure what they want to say with the intro but I can say that I like it! It's refreshingly diffferent from the usual dumb effect-hammer-hero-super-action-intro.
My sentiments exactly. I like to use the Rome: Total War credits (the girl worried half to death for her boyfriend who's fighting with the Roman Army) as an example of another good move by developers who dare to try something else than the 'Hollywood approach' (and no, I didn't see the irony before now:p).

[ScottD]

The only thing I don't care about the intro is that its being read by an Englishmen...uh guys this game is about American Sub Force! Its nearly as bad as Hollywood's version of U-571, which was based on an RN incident!

[Payoff]

Too artsy fartsy for me. Why not just start with an old radio broadcast of the attack on Pearl, fading into some music of the day? An intro is meant to introduce the subject matter with a little what, when, where, not to leave one scratching his head thinking " what the hell was that ".

[Dantenoc]

Not the worst of intros, and in some places it's nice, but overall, I think some frustrated artist tried to be a bit too clever with this one.

Edit: After watching the intro some more, I am more convinced that the poem is completely out of place. The "gratest generation" valued content over form. They were a bunch of young kids who grew in hard times and were a "no-nonsese, quit your belly aching, stand up and get the job done" bunch of people... hardly a match for such an elaborately written poem that is actually talking about a completely different subject matter.

[P_Funk]

We were attacked, brutally, without warning, during diplomatic negotiations. I hate the assersion. Such bollocks in its own right. The US is the big fan of pre-emptive war these days anyway. War is a brutal nasty affair, and to say the US is some big victim in a brutal uncalled for attack is like saying that Europe was taken by surprise when Hitler invaded Poland. Anti-war sentiment led to stupidity and isolationism. The US wanted economic hegemony but not the military consequences of being affluent and powerful in the hemisphere.

The Japanese went for the Jugular by attempting to cripple the US surface fleet. Thats called good strategy. Surprise attack. You can denounce Pearl Harbour all you like but at least it was a military target. Don't be righteous when your nation was the one that nuked hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians who were being oppressed by a dictator.

A little perspective maybe.

As for the poem, its a lamentation of death but also a thoughtful reminder that there is a beyond and that those that sacrifice themselves will go on to heaven and that death is not the end because we remember those that died.

Very similar to John Donne's 'Death be not proud'.

I found it very rousing and melancholie. No "rah rah war is great", or "boo boo war sucks period". Its impartial in its appraisal of death and thememory of those that die.

Showing he sub sink is appropriate also I think. Most games make you a hero that can't die. This isn't about being a hero. This is about being a sailor. Plus I love English poets of that era. Such beautiful writing by itself.

[Reaves]

The only thing I don't care about the intro is that its being read by an Englishmen...

Personally I can't stand the whiny American accent... ;) (joking)


Seriously though, I'm a fan of the intro. Whenever I get a new game I always look forward to the intro and this is one of the better ones.

All time favorite would be mechwarrior 2.

[joea]

The Japanese went for the Jugular by attempting to cripple the US surface fleet. Thats called good strategy. Surprise attack. You can denounce Pearl Harbour all you like but at least it was a military target. Don't be righteous when your nation was the one that nuked hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians who were being oppressed by a dictator.


A surprise attack by the same nation that unleashed a war that slaughtered millions of Chinese and other Asians, funny how that never enters the calculations either with Yanks or Canucks or Euros eh? If you want to be cynical, a drive by on a potential rival so the local gangster could oppress and exploit the locals.

[ScottD]

Don't be righteous when your nation was the one that nuked hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians who were being oppressed by a dictator.


Better then the millions of people that would have died if the Allies would have had to invade the Japanese Main Land...on both sides..

As for being oppressed by a dictator, the Emperor was a god in their eyes...they never heard him speak in public till they surrendered..

[melendir]

I'm not complaining about the intro. It's great and original, but it still is kinda creepy anyway. Nothing can change that and I mean it don't have to change.
Creepy can be good :up:

As you can see from my post at first page... it has big smiley after that twilight zone part :D

[Snowman999]

With respect, I think you missed the point of my post, and -- again, with respect -- I know I'm missing yours.

S'OK. I understand why some folks like the opening. I do too if it's taken alone, apart from the topic. I just think it's engaging in "presentism" about events of 60+ years ago. I believe you said you were an English major; I was History, but I've got one novel published, so we both understand POV. POV is a problem with the game overall (witness the posts about feeling as if one is "being the boat" vice "being the CO".) I think the opening muddies the issue of whether we're 2007 folk playing a game set in 1941, or a CO IN 1941, with that time's beliefs and worldview.


Just my opinion, but I think the video actually underscores the sacrifices made by the "Great Generation" rather than minimizing them. But it is, after all, just a game video. To put it another way, I was pleasantly suprised to see the video take an even remotely serious approach, instead of a "run-and-gun" deal with loud guitars. If I have a complaint it's the "Wolves of the Pacific" subtitle as I don't think that's an accurate description. But that's a quibble.


I too have a quibble with the sub-title (I once engaged in a vicious little flame war on Usenet over games' ahistoric use of "wolfpack" for the coordinated groups we tried late-war), but it's a quibble.

I do think it somewhat demonstrates the Euro-centric view of the game necessary due to its dev team's origins. Europeans simply see WWII differently than Americans, now, and certainly then. We were isolationists hammered into a war we didn't start. I must confess that I saw the opening video through that lens, especially when I compared it to the treatment given the U-boats in SH3. Professionals doing their job versus, as I read Milton, saps sacrificed in an unworthy endeavor, with salvation as compensation. Thanks, but I prefer a long life. Milton's poem is anti-war. Europeans are generally anti-war. I'm generally anti-war. But WWII needed to be fought.


Would it have been better if they'd had someone playing "Sakura" on a koto instead?


No. I'd prefer an historical backdrop, with some newsreel, etc. The opening to the Matrix game "War in the Pacific" does an excellent job of setting the mood at a fraction of the budget. For just one example.


No hard feelings, here, I'm not looking for agreement so much as understanding where you're coming from. What, exactly, is "Milton's" sort of history? How is his poem "On Time" any less appropriate than "Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori?"


It strikes me as defeatist. It strikes me as arguing that all sides in any war are morally equal. Just my reading of it. Pretty radical if that's what he meant, given that he was living through late-Reformation wars of religious bigotry, but artists are usually radicals for their time. And, as I said before, the poem argues that time smooths over events that seem so important at the time, but in th elong view really aren't. Again, as related to WWII, I don't buy that.

I DO accept that, as an intro, it's generated more heat than any I can remember. So if that was one of the devs' goals it has succeeded. I'd just prefer one of more nuts&bolts to reflect where the men of the time had their heads, and less presentism from this era of muddled war policy.

[Snowman999]

[quote=Snowman999]We were attacked, brutally, without warning, during diplomatic negotiations. I hate the assersion. Such bollocks in its own right. The US is the big fan of pre-emptive war these days anyway.

It's a fact, not an assertion. Bringing in Bush's war-of-choice has no bearing on WWII.

We embargoed scrap iron, yes. We did that after Japan had been, shall we say, naughty, since the mid-30s in China--little place called Nanking for an example. And they were making loud noises toward the rest of east Asia. We were isolationist, yes, after being burned soundly by our Euro friends in 1917-1919. Stupidly isolationist, but that we were.

War is a brutal nasty affair, and to say the US is some big victim in a brutal uncalled for attack is like saying that Europe was taken by surprise when Hitler invaded Poland.

The two are not congruent at all. Europe created Hitler with the Treaty of Versailles and watched him spread for years. We had no indication Japan was going to attack before a declaration of war. None. Nations simply didn't behave that way.
It wasn't the attack that enraged America so much as the surprise. A matter of a few hours, but a critical few hours. Japan got a far worse licking than they would have if they'd followed the rules. (Bataan didn't help their case either.)


Anti-war sentiment led to stupidity and isolationism. The US wanted economic hegemony but not the military consequences of being affluent and powerful in the hemisphere.


Japan and the USA are in different hemispheres.

Our interests in Asia, less the PI, were minimal. You need to talk to the UK and the Dutch.

The Japanese went for the Jugular by attempting to cripple the US surface fleet. Thats called good strategy. Surprise attack.

Speaking from 2007 where declaring war is considered quaint. In 1941 it wasn't. Japan had intended to declare war first, but the translation in DC as too slow and the envoys missed the window. On that basis your argument falls apart--they didn't intend a sneak attack in a legal sense, although the hour or so planned for would have amounted to the same thing on the ground in Hawaii. As for good strategy it fails there too, a point that's been endless ly hashed out. Subs were leaving on war patrols on December 8, and it was the subs that ultimately beat Japan, not battleships.


You can denounce Pearl Harbour all you like but at least it was a military target. Don't be righteous when your nation was the one that nuked hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians who were being oppressed by a dictator.



The Emperor was a dictator? The Japanese people of the time certainly didn't feel oppressed by him. Tojo was long gone.


Showing he sub sink is appropriate also I think. Most games make you a hero that can't die.


Then the intro would have been far more appropriate for SH3.

[AVGWarhawk]

Keep the flames on low men. A discussion of an intro does not need to turn ugly. Like any other poem, take it for what you believe the author was attempting to convey.

[USS_shipmaster]

Great Intro. The idea of Milton poems is clear even :-) for me (english is my 3rd language)... There are thoughts and ideas in this poem... "The biggest pacifist is the soldier who served during the war"as one guy said.
Are you tired of brave military commercials? I am.

VK

[aaronblood]

The poem's good, I like it. :|\\


The Intro? :down:

The decision to use the poem voice over just doesn't fit; somewhat ironic that it's in fact outta sync with... Time. :down:

Accelerated time and cliche fast cloud scenes :down:

The kiss :huh: (let's just not talk about that part...)

[Cakewalk]

*kisses sub*

Hm... salty.:hmm:

[NZ_Wanderer]

Well personally, I hated the intro...
The voice over IMHO does not match what I would expect from a WWII submarine simulation, and that movie, well, what can I say, total rubbish, those fast scenes looked awful..

As one poster mentioned above, What would have been a lot better would have been someone talking about the Pearl Harbour attack with cut-scenes from it...


I'm just hoping someone will come up with something like that or I will be disabling that intro very quickly..

Just my 2c worth..

[Chock]

Your wish is my command. Here's a replacement.

See what you think, do I deserve an Oscar? (probably not). You can download it from the link below and check it out in windows media player, then if you like it, stick it in the SH4 movies folder replacing the original Intro movie (which has the benefit of freeing up some RAM on start up since it's only about 6 percent of the size of the 'Milton' original intro.

It's here, (5.7 meg), takes about two or three minutes on broadband to download:

http://www.mediafire.com/?6mmqilmdb2m

[NZ_Wanderer]

Hehehe I like it, it will be a good replacement for the default one...
You should see if you could get some clips from the actual attack on Pearl, and blend them in to that movie, but I sticking your one on for now :) :)
Thank you :)
And yes, you got the Oscar...

Your wish is my command. Here's a replacement.
See what you think, do I deserve an Oscar? (probably not).

[Safe-Keeper]

As for what you'd expect out of a war game, I would think it's quite common for people in war to think about death, fame, etc. Perhaps especially WWII submariners who spent 99,99% of their time patrolling doing... nothing much:p. So in my eyes, it fits perfectly well.

[Chock]

Hehehe I like it, it will be a good replacement for the default one...
You should see if you could get some clips from the actual attack on Pearl, and blend them in to that movie, but I sticking your one on for now
Thank you
And yes, you got the Oscar...

I'm glad you like it. But with regard to using actual footage from the attack on Pearl Harbor, there are two problems. From a purely legal standpoint, I think I'd be on very shaky ground doing that, which is one of the reasons why I dummied up a 'World Cine News' logo at the beginning, rather than use the Pathe, or Movietone news logos.

But more importantly than that, I think it would not be in very good taste to use real footage (where it is likely that people are dying in the shots) in something that is essentially a pastiche for the purposes of getting you in the mood to play a video game (oops, I mean simulation :D )

A similar thing was done in the James Cameron movie 'The Abyss' (long version), when real life footage was used in pretence of being an event in the movie: Footage of Sea King helicopters which were trying to use their downdrafts to fan heat and flames away from people desperately trying to escape from the stern of the burning Sir Galahad transport ship in Falkland Sound. I thought that was in really poor taste and James Cameron (who is undoubtedly a very talented man) went seriously down in my estimation for having done that.

It's also the main reason why I thought that the original intro movie misfired. I think it would have been largely fine as a 'credits' piece for the game (notwithstanding the poor choice of using a hammy Limey to read the poem). But as an into, I think it fell between two stools; yes it is fine to muse upon what death means etc etc, but to preface a game where you go out and simulate torpedoing people, with something of that nature was in my view very wrong.

I know people may disagree, but I wanted my replacement intro to emulate the upbeat 'Let's get at em' mood which was prevalent immediately following the attack on Pearl, and it was possible to do that without using real footage, particularly when that footage might affect people to whom the victims of Pearl are in living memory.

Chock

[NZ_Wanderer]

I take your points and agree with you on them :)

Hows about then, at the beginning of your movie when the movie starts, maybe have the official announcement by the president, and then cut into your part.. - Something like that could have a greater impact without showing any actual dying..

[Chock]

I did originally intend to use the Roosevelt 'Infamy' recording, but it's actually rather noisy if you listen to the entire thing, with a lot of what I presume are mike noises and general clutter. I even tried quite a lot of filtering, compression etc to try and clean it up, but in the end, it just wasn't gonna fly. And I daresay the truth is that the reason the 'a day that will live in infamy' sound bite is heard so often, is that it's one of the few clutter-free parts of the address. The full length address is actually rather long-winded too. Although it does use some quite clever speech techniques, ironically in fact, techniques that Hitler also used, such as repeating things three times etc. Well worth seeking out for a listen if you've never heard it in its entirety.

Roosevelt does make good points in it, most notably the fact that while the Japanese were still attempting to appear to offer an olive branch to the US in the negotiations which took place immediately prior to the strike on Pearl Harbor, it was quite apparent (especially to anyone who's sailed their sub from Pearl to the Japanese coast in SH4), that the attack must have been planned months beforehand, simply based on the transit time across the Pacific. It's a point well made, given that he is asking for approval to declare war from the American people, in that it underlines the callous treachery behind the attack.

Back on the subject at hand however, my original plan was not dissimilar to what you suggested - i.e. to recreate some of the attack sequences with the flight sim Pacific Fighters and overlay it with excerpts from that famous address and some news announcements, and I did actually record FRAPS footage of some Japanese attack aircraft and do a rough edit to try it out. But without the planned overdub of the Roosevelt address in a usable form, I thought it came across a bit lame. Besides which, everyone knows what happened on that day, and referring to it briefly in the 'newsreel' version, while showing a sub setting sail for retribution seemed to be more fitting. After all, SH4 is a submarine sim, not a torpedo bomber flight sim.

If you disagree, you could of course have a bash at producing a replacement intro for yourself. All you really need is FRAPS (or similar), the movie editing app that comes with windows and a sound editing app, not that much at all really. I certainly enjoyed having a crack at it, and as you can see from this post, there are a lot of things to consider (especially my bad acting), so it presents a good challenge, why not give it a try yourself?

Incidentally, the other famous recording of Roosevelt: 'The only thing we have to fear, is fear itself' is very clear, and quite appropriate, so you might want to try that one if you give it a go.

:up:

[edjcox]

To stand at the edge of the universe and look over into the precipice of time.....

You won't know you died in your sleep until you wake up in the morning......


All of these are profound in there own way.....

Milton simply stated that time somehow ends and when it does the immortal soul will live and go beyond the bounds of it......


Man it's simply all to heavy for me..... :hmm:

[cohiba]

I think the opening video/poem are brilliant!!! It is done very well; from the voice over to the footage... I think you can get many different meanings from the poem itself, but I believe it highlights the bravery, but after time nobody remembers even that... the horror... the horror... the horror...

[Jmack]

if you want to live forever ... do things in life that will remain in history ... that is the way to beat time and live forever ... triumph over death .

[santini812]

While I found the footage quirky and odd in comparison to the voice over, overall I thought it was brilliant. Just look at the comments it has generated. We've had history lessons from several perspectives, touched a little on the divine, man's immortal soul, death, time, glory....what else do you want from a two minute intro...I've never read a discusssion on the Intro to The Sims 2.

[GoldenRivet]

Also it could be just that, someone who had final say of the intro just liked the poem. :hmm:

You guys are right, it is definately different from usual hero stuff intros...
That reader guys voice is kinda creepy.
Gave me a bit uneasy twilight zone feeling :D

thats it!!!

open this in a new window >> http://tzone.the-croc.com/sounds/tzone2.wav

que the twilight zone guys voice and now read this...

"Picture a man... he has entered a virtual world beyond sight and sound. His crew and his craft cloaked in the darkness of a sea at war wherein sound IS sight. Hes has taken command of an American submarine in the pacific during world war two. A submarine with dozens of buttons, switches and levers... some of which have been bugged to cause his virtual world to spiral out of control and crash to a bitter end... yet all of these bugged devices he needs in order to defeat the enemy who is trying to kill him. Such is life as a submarine commander...

... in the twilight zone"

[Cobber]

I can only describe it as crap.

[Capt. Shark Bait]

What are the dev's trying to say by choosing that poem?

What so you think they are trying to say? ;)

Hint: Read the links Milton talks about triumphing over time and death.

or, the futility of trying to:hmm:

personally, i think it's the best game intro since Klingon Academy

GoldenRivet, very good:rotfl:

[mookiemookie]

I can only describe it as crap.
:yep:

I'm lovin' Captain Cox's Silent Service mod!

[mbthegreat]

I think it is trying to make you think about what war is about and what you are doing when you sink another ship, because the people fighting on each side are morally equal, and everybody you kill is exactly the same as you. I believe it says in the Qu'ran the killing one person is equal to killing the entire human race, and I think that is really applicable here.

I think Snowman said something about Europeans and Americans thinking about war differently, and I think that is true, Europeans seem to have much more of a generational memory of the full horrors of war, the level of destruction, the level of death. Compare American civilain deaths (~11,000) with places like Poland (~2,000,000) or the USSR (~10,000,000). The only thing that really comes close in levels of brutality is the American Civil War, and even that is now where near the scale of the war in Europe.

[joea]

Oh leave this already mbthegreat, you got the numbers wrong, sometimes both sides are not the same and poems are sometimes just poems.

[mbthegreat]

How are my numbers wrong?

The sides are not the same (world War Two is probably the most clear cut conflict ever) but the people fighting are just the same.

[yankee-V]

Initially I did not even bother with the intro video, skipped it completely everytime the game started. Listened and watched once or twice and pondered the words. It is quite out of keeping with most multimedia fluff in computer games, action oriented simulations and the like. But more and more it has grown on me.

Like others have said, I don't think that the intro is making a political statement, as much a philosophical statement about life, death and time. Which is not a bad thing to think on. Also, there's not much Milton out there in popular culture. Sort of an interesting choice.

http://www.acmewebpages.com/midi/milton.wav

[Manbot_amo]

After long study of the poem I have come up with my own interpretation of the poem, hear me out:
Remember that the poet is talking to time itself, he starts of addressing time by saying “Fly envious time til thy run out thy race” the race may be the human race or the race which time is running, either way it shows the end of the world. He then continues to describe time as “lazy leaden-stepping hours” he also explains tat by ending the “race” man will lose little as time gains little. “So little is our loss,So little is thy gain”
He also explain that every thing mortal is "dross" or impure and in need of removal. (do remember tat the poet is a strong catholic, thus he is saying that humans and their creadtions are "dross")

He then says that as the end of the world, as time entombs all bad things and the greed of man is consumed “For when as each thing bad thou hast entombed
And last of all, thy greedy self consumed,” only happiness shall remain as we remain in heaven. For love and peace will be greatly greeted by man “Then long Enternity shall greet our bliss” (bliss meaning happiness) as joy overtakes us like a flood.

And as we stay in heaven, “About the supreme throne” and sit and wear stars “Attired with stars, we shall forever sit” (offcourse referring to heaven) we stand triumphant over death, chance and time itself!

In my opinion this poem is talking about our end, may it be natural or man made. However it does give a small hint tat it might be man made, as it refers to "greed self cosume" thus greed consuming us all. for when we are in Enternity, time itself is beaten and no longer needed, this is why time i described as "envious", for he envies the time we will no longer need him (remember in the poem time is personified, by giving it human characteristics.)

thus this can explain the adding of the poem in SH4.

Let me know

[Marinesko]

I think it is trying to make you think about what war is about and what you are doing when you sink another ship, because the people fighting on each side are morally equal, and everybody you kill is exactly the same as you. I believe it says in the Qu'ran the killing one person is equal to killing the entire human race, and I think that is really applicable here.

I think Snowman said something about Europeans and Americans thinking about war differently, and I think that is true, Europeans seem to have much more of a generational memory of the full horrors of war, the level of destruction, the level of death. Compare American civilain deaths (~11,000) with places like Poland (~2,000,000) or the USSR (~10,000,000). The only thing that really comes close in levels of brutality is the American Civil War, and even that is now where near the scale of the war in Europe.


For the record I like the intro, though I've never been the literary type.

As for the numbers, the Soviet Union figure for civilian deaths could be correct(the total number of deaths is still undetermined), but in the case of Poland there were roughly 2-3 million total, including military- then almost the entire Polish Jewry, which was something like 3 million; as a result, some sources, such as Soviet, counted Poland's loss at 6 million people.

And yes, the Quran does say that:

“Who so slays a soul, not to retaliate for a soul slain, nor for corruption done in the land should be as if he has slain mankind altogether. And whosoever saves a life, it is as though he has saved the lives of all mankind.” (5 :32)

That being said, I wouldn't venture to say that all soldiers of WWII were morally equivalent.


But back to the topic, I like the intro, I just wish I knew what the camera technique is called(it looks like a simulation of time lapse(???) footage).

[Marinesko]

I also have some questions about the best way to get AOB(right now I draw on the map with the protractor) and particularly speed estimation. When I miss, it usually seems to be a problem of speed estimation. I have heard of something called the "3 minute rule"(reminds me of the Pick-up artist's 3 second rule), but I have seen no explanation. I have also seen something about plotting the course on a map to measure the speed, which can then also be used for AOB. How does one do this exactly?

[TwinStackPete379]

John Milton
Born9 December 1608(1608-12-09)
Bread Street, Cheapside (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheapside), London (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London), England (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England)Died8 November 1674 (aged 65)
Bunhill, London, EnglandOccupation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employment)Poet, prose polemicist, civil servantNotable work(s)Paradise Lost (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradise_Lost), Paradise Regained (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradise_Regained), Samson Agonistes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Agonistes), Areopagitica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Areopagitica)
I now have a new favorite poem. Not simply because I get great enjoyment from this game, but, because, for me, it's a vivid reminder of the importance of spirituality(whatever one chooses, but in this case Christianity). I never fail to watch the intro when i first load up the game. I was unfamiliar with this piece of poetry, even with having had studied Milton in the past.
The point of the poem is this: the material world is meaningless, so it matters not that Time may inevitably devour all "Which is no more then what is false and vain, and merely mortal dross". According to Milton, we, ultimately have the upper hand because we have the ability to rise to everlasting timeless eternity "With Truth, and Peace, and Love shall ever shine About the supreme Throne Of him".
I find it provoking that the devs would choose this piece of poetry to open the game. The fact that it is read to an intro of war scenes, for me, only reinforces the message of the poem. After all, wars, at their lowest denominator, are always fought over the material.
As far as the "individual kiss" juxtaposed against an exploding torpedo, I think it's a very good interpretation of the "kiss" of death. Every individual receives this kiss, in that particular case an explosive one. The kiss may also come as quietly passing in ur sleep. One never knows, or, gets to choose (suicide aside).
In the end, the poem caught my attention as an unusual intro for a game. By the second time i heard it, i thought it was E.A. Poe (the cadence and use of words sounded like "The Raven" to me, but i was 225 years off:oops:). Personnaly i think Milton accomplished more with this poem than with paradise lost. This piece is succinct, pleasant and powerful.