Auto TDC consistently misses (torps arrive late always)

[Koinonos]

I am in my first SH4 campaign as a SHIII veteran and am getting a really confusing problem.

Essentially when I have perfect AOB and have merchants crossing my front at 500 meters to 1500 meters I cannot get a torpedo to hit a merchant. Whether I am locked on the target or manually moving the scope to get a firing solution on the forward tip of the nose of the vessel the torpedos (at slow or at fast settings) will never hit the target.

Leaving the sub I can tell by 25%-50% of the run time it will never arrive in time to hit the ship becuase the torpedo was not fired ahead of the target to meet it at it's speed and distance.

I have tried this in 2 different subs and 2 different campaigns (ver. 1.1) and the torpedo *always* arrive .5-1 ship lengths too slow. The problem is consistent and reproducible - it's like the TDC computer is 10 degrees retarded always.

I go back to SHIII and my targeting is dead on, so it is something with SH4 but darned if I can figure out what. :damn:

What I've Tried:
=============
1.) Different Sub - Problem is reproducible of the TDC regardless of sub.
2.) Locking on target vs. manually leading the target using the periscope to the nose of the vessel to attempt to lead more - No effect. Torpedo always arrive .5-1 ship lengths too late.
3.) Changing distance from target - No effect. The torpedo will always arrive .5-1 ship lengths behind at 400 meters or 1200 meters.
4.) Changing speed of torpedos - Setting to fast or slow makes no difference. The torpedos will still arrive .5-1 ship lengths behind.


What I'll Try Next:
================
1.) Try different torpedo classes - Maybe it's a bug TDC computing with the larger Mk 14 steamers?
2.) Go back and play the sub training in ver 1.1 (I qualified when SH4 was ver 1.0) and see if the problem occurs there as well..

I am really drawing a blank here. Has anyone else observed this effect? I cannot get the TDC to compute a proper firing solution.. It's almost like something is consistently being miscalculated.

-shanec (Koinonos)

[RangerX3X]

I am in my first SH4 campaign as a SHIII veteran and am getting a really confusing problem.

Essentially when I have perfect AOB and have merchants crossing my front at 500 meters to 1500 meters I cannot get a torpedo to hit a merchant. Whether I am locked on the target or manually moving the scope to get a firing solution on the forward tip of the nose of the vessel the torpedos (at slow or at fast settings) will never hit the target.

Leaving the sub I can tell by 25%-50% of the run time it will never arrive in time to hit the ship becuase the torpedo was not fired ahead of the target to meet it at it's speed and distance.

I have tried this in 2 different subs and 2 different campaigns (ver. 1.1) and the torpedo *always* arrive .5-1 ship lengths too slow. The problem is consistent and reproducible - it's like the TDC computer is 10 degrees retarded always.

I go back to SHIII and my targeting is dead on, so it is something with SH4 but darned if I can figure out what. :damn:

What I've Tried:
=============
1.) Different Sub - Problem is reproducible of the TDC regardless of sub.
2.) Locking on target vs. manually leading the target using the periscope to the nose of the vessel to attempt to lead more - No effect. Torpedo always arrive .5-1 ship lengths too late.
3.) Changing distance from target - No effect. The torpedo will always arrive .5-1 ship lengths behind at 400 meters or 1200 meters.
4.) Changing speed of torpedos - Setting to fast or slow makes no difference. The torpedos will still arrive .5-1 ship lengths behind.


What I'll Try Next:
================
1.) Try different torpedo classes - Maybe it's a bug TDC computing with the larger Mk 14 steamers?
2.) Go back and play the sub training in ver 1.1 (I qualified when SH4 was ver 1.0) and see if the problem occurs there as well..

I am really drawing a blank here. Has anyone else observed this effect? I cannot get the TDC to compute a proper firing solution.. It's almost like something is consistently being miscalculated.

-shanec (Koinonos)

I have this same problem. It first came about the very first time I tried the game - in the torpedo training mission. You can lock center ship and fire with tubes already open and lucky if the torp clips the aft of the ship if not miss completely.

And it is reproduceable - happens every time I fire a fish.

[waste gate]

Perhaps you are being too cautious. Get in closer to your target!!!

EDIT
I had another thought, set your torp speed to high. Last nite I sank the Yamato but I was vey close, less than 1000 yds, and it took six fish.

[PeriscopeDepth]

Known bug, AFAIK.

PD

[canimodo]

Perhaps you are being too cautious. Get in closer to your target!!!


lol

he´s at 500meters...

close than that he could slap the captains face ! :lol:

[Rykaird]

Yes, lots of folks have confirmed and posted on this. That cruiser in the torp school has a lot holes in his hind end! To my knowledge no one knows the root cause.

The usual advice is to make sure your bow cap is open, that you update the TDC with range (and therefore bearing) right before you shoot, etc. If you do all these things, the torp still goes aft, so its clearly some kind of a bug.

Until addressed, you can compensate by adding a few degrees with the salvo switch or a few knots of speed over the actual speed of the target.

[tommyk]

Same here. afaik a bug...

[Ducimus]

Torpedo tube doors open agonizingly slow.

At any rate, spread angle is your friend. If your target is moving to the left in your periscope, use about a 4 or 5 degree Left spread angle. If your target is moving to the right in your periscope, use a 4 or 5 degree right spread angle. Hit's every time.

[mookiemookie]

Torpedo tube doors open agonizingly slow.

At any rate, spread angle is your friend. If your target is moving to the left in your periscope, use about a 4 or 5 degree Left spread angle. If your target is moving to the right in your periscope, use a 4 or 5 degree right spread angle. Hit's every time.

This works to help alleviate the problem, but one thing to add: Of course a 4 to 5 degree angle will work at close range. Farther out, you may have to cut this number down. YMMV and all that. :up:

[malkuth74]

You need to update the Bearing and Range in the torpedo settins menu. If you don't you will miss. (thats the little round button on lower right of the menu that turns white)

Their is a bug, but its not that off if your shooting AUTO and at 500 Meters.

Push the button, it works. Even though its not the Mark button that US subs have. I think of it as one.

[gnirtS]

Seems to be a known issue.

Are you using auto or manual TDC ?

See this thread:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=108874

[TheSatyr]

Is it possible that your crew quality may be causing the problem? A less experienced crew might be making slight errors in the auto TDC,causing torps to pass behind the target.

Has anyone tested the auto TDC with both an experienced and inexperienced crew to see if there is any difference in targeting?

(The same thing happens to me in vanilla SH3 with my WO. He aims better as he gains experience it seems).

[shawnyp420]

Yah, this is really annoying. Did they test this game at ALL!!??

I mean...there is a HUGE community here on subsim...Why couldn't they just ask 50 of us to test the game? All of these stupid bugs could have been fixed. Don't you think the Auto TDC would be something that they would notice?? I have a serious lack of confidence in devs if they overlook a MAJOR bug like this one. Let's see. Submarines shoot....torpedos. So...let's make sure the torpedo shooting isn't bugged right!!? I'm not trying to flame here...but...wtf!?

And before you start bustin me for using the Auto TDC...Look. I'm the captain here. I should be giving orders...thats it. When I say FIRE. I expect that my fish will hit!!!

[gnirtS]

Has anyone tested the auto TDC with both an experienced and inexperienced crew to see if there is any difference in targeting?

Yes and at all level crew from poor to vetern they miss by the same offset. Its not a crew quality problem.

[DJSatane]

damn i am glad i dont use auto tdc, although manual tdc is very clumsy as well, but at least I got hang of it mostly, except speed determination is very annoying since built in feature doesnt work.

[gnirtS]

No issues here with speed and manual, i measure off the map.

Can verify if you dont use manual updates only by turning position keeper on and seeing if the white X stays at the same point on the target in the attack map too.

[akdavis]

Speed error can be factored out in the training mission, as the cruiser's speed is known (9 knots).

It is a bug. The TDC lags behind. For the training mission, shift your spread right 5 degrees (i.e. the center shot of a 3-torpedo salvo would be at 5 deg. R, the bow shot at 10 deg. R and the stern shot at 0 deg.) and you can consistently land 3 torps along the length of the ship. You will also see that microsecond updates and torpedo launch times are not quite as important as people are making them out to be, at least at this range.

I'm going to spend more time on this, but it certainly seems to be isolated to a bug with the TDC at this point.

[Helen Keller]

Is there a way to enter all your own targeting data manually? Or do you have to use their little tool things, some times I get super close up and can just wait and shoot straight ahead like a bullet, and can't. With the messed up TDC I need some kind of simple solution...

Heck, if I'm running at 1440x900, the stadimeter crashes my game. The speed check doesn't work. And opening up the recognition manual at night makes it too bloody hard to see what I'm aiming at through the periscope...


I know the devs are working on things, but seems like we should have gotten working targetting before medals.

[Koinonos]

Adding another 5 degrees on the spread does compensate, but here's hoping they will fix this. I am going to read the attached discussion and see which should be placed in the Sticky bug thread so (hopefully the dev's will take notice and fix it).

[ColonelCuneo]

There is no bug! As with SH3, the auto targeting does not account for the time it takes to open the torpedo door. Try hitting "q" and wait 5 seconds before you fire. If you use external view, you can always take a quick peak to make sure the door is fully opened. As long as the target's speed and heading do not change and as long as your sub isn't turning while firing, you should hit precisely where you aimed, everytime.

[Koinonos]

This is definitely a TDC speed calculation issue - The question is what is the best way to get this in front of the SH4 devs so they can fix it? Does Ducimus or Neal have a hotline to the dev team for consideration?

How does one file a bug against SH4 to where the devs get notified about it without trusting an UBI tech support droid that he'll notify them sooner or later?

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=108874&page=2

[Faamecanic]

There is no bug! As with SH3, the auto targeting does not account for the time it takes to open the torpedo door. Try hitting "q" and wait 5 seconds before you fire. If you use external view, you can always take a quick peak to make sure the door is fully opened. As long as the target's speed and heading do not change and as long as your sub isn't turning while firing, you should hit precisely where you aimed, everytime.

That would be great...if we could OPEN more than one farking door at a time.... :nope:

[ColonelCuneo]

Yeah, I know. In SH3 I used to go to the conning tower and just flip all the switches before I began to fire anything.

[rotoplooker]

I think I may have figured this out. I'm not sure what it's called but it's the little solution button (red S) that when you mouse over gives you a rating. ie poor, good, very good. When it gets to very good hit the button and it'll say 'very good locked', it unlocks your periscope but the torpedoes hit. It was late last night so I could be way off. I'm at work at the moment so if someone wants to give it a go let me know if it works.

[gnirtS]

There is no bug! As with SH3, the auto targeting does not account for the time it takes to open the torpedo door. Try hitting "q" and wait 5 seconds before you fire. If you use external view, you can always take a quick peak to make sure the door is fully opened. As long as the target's speed and heading do not change and as long as your sub isn't turning while firing, you should hit precisely where you aimed, everytime.

Should but dont. You hit behind.

[Sceptre666]

There is no bug! As with SH3, the auto targeting does not account for the time it takes to open the torpedo door. Try hitting "q" and wait 5 seconds before you fire. If you use external view, you can always take a quick peak to make sure the door is fully opened. As long as the target's speed and heading do not change and as long as your sub isn't turning while firing, you should hit precisely where you aimed, everytime.
Should but dont. You hit behind.

Yeah, I can confirm, this still doesn't work.

[Ducimus]

Does Ducimus or Neal have a hotline to the dev team for consideration?

LOL, cross my name out of that sentence, i have just a much of a hotline as anyone else on this forum. Only difference between me and a "bilge rat" is a whole lot of hot air for post counts.

[akdavis]

Adding another 5 degrees on the spread does compensate, but here's hoping they will fix this. I am going to read the attached discussion and see which should be placed in the Sticky bug thread so (hopefully the dev's will take notice and fix it).

5 deg. might be a bit much, as I had the AOB on the training mission cruiser off by 10-15 deg. Just turn on map contact updates and you can check the TDC solution versus the ship's actual track. Maybe more like a 3 deg R compensation, but 5 might still provide a better bracket.

There is not a TDC speed error. Enter 9 knots and it tracks the cruiser perfectly. In fact, the solution appears perfect on the map after some work, with only tiny errors for range and AOB in either direction. Nonetheless, the torpedoes fall behind the target. Nor is it lag for torpedo doors. Results are the same pre-opening the tube and inputing a bearing update and firing within in a second of eachother.

HOWEVER, I beginning to think this may only be occuring with the target moving from left to right. Loading up the navigation mission, I am able to get repeated center of mass hits on the cargo ship and tanker moving towards you on your left side (bearing tracks right to left) at mission start without compensating ahead of the ships to the left.

If someone could set up a mirror of the torpedo training mission with the Mogami moving right to left, that would be a good test. I lack the skill with the mission editor to do so.

[NefariousKoel]

It is a TDC computing bug.
I've tried numerous techniques to fix this issue. I assure you, the dev team knows by now as this has been brought up fairly often here.

WORKAROUND:
I tried using the spread dial, but it varied too much depending on target speed and AoB.

ADD 2.5 KNOTS TO YOUR TARGET'S SPEED IN MANUAL. SEND A RANGE UPDATE BEFORE FIRING EACH TUBE and preferrably AoB update right before range update. Hell, if you can't stadimeter it, just hit the range update button.

Those of you in easy mode won't be able to do that unfortunately. :cry: Motivational? Perhaps. But it works with regularity. Don't be afraid to use a small spread either boys and girls. Give it a try!

:rock:

[Doolan]

Confirmed from here as well, it's a bug.

I saved games before attacking both a merchant and a destroyer and tried various distances, angles, etc.

For speed estimation I used both lms_oid's tables (for AoB of 90 degrees) and a little Java command-line program I made myself this afternoon (for all other AoBs, matches lms_oid's tables pretty accurately at 90, so I assume it works well).

With both techniques (and using the range lock to correct AoB) all my fish lagged behind a bit.

At roughly 1000 yards, a five-degree spread in the direction of the ship's course did the trick. I also noticed that adding 2 / 3 knots to the speed works reasonably well.

Without this slight correction, only my bow fish hit. With it, it's three out of three or two out of three more often than not, even on fast targets (destroyers) when using the Java app.

[Jungman]

I read somewhere that it could be the overzealous 'cough' kicking in -maybe.

Reading other forums, it would seem it is more than just the Chanting Numbers and 2D Crew.

Why it would trigger on a legit copy...is unknown. The Devs mention so much.

Plus the bug with the Port side shot crossing bug...who knows for sure.

For now I am looking at what I can make for mods to enhance the game until the next patch.

I believe I seen this behavior, I swear I had a good solution, auto or manual OP.

Does it only accur in Career Mode or all Modes? I think it occurs on Career (Camapign Mode) only.

Oh yes, Congrat to CCIP, he made moderator :up:

[StandingCow]

Open your tubes first.

[Jungman]

Indeed they claim the tube doors are open. I believe that only a real n00b would make that mistake!:D

Possible slow torp data left over from SH3. The speeds of the German and American torp (slow and fast) are close together..being off by that 2-3 knots. Checking into that theory. I seen it before...

Update:

The real values are being used for a Mark 14 anyway 31 and 46 knots (range is off, not abig deal 4100 and 8200 yards). But I see that there is new stuff in the Torpedo_US.sim file. There is a true magnetic influence explosion range (Der Tedy Bar would like this) of 5.5 and a chance to set the dud rate...now if it is a dude, it could maybe vary in ange but definetly there is a listing of Dud Reduction Speed of 34. As if it is deemed a dud, then instead of not only a premature/weak damage explosion, it could just run at a slower rate of 34 instead of 46 knots.

Have you tried using no Dud to see if this fixes the problem?

[tommyk]

There is no bug! As with SH3, the auto targeting does not account for the time it takes to open the torpedo door. Try hitting "q" and wait 5 seconds before you fire. If you use external view, you can always take a quick peak to make sure the door is fully opened. As long as the target's speed and heading do not change and as long as your sub isn't turning while firing, you should hit precisely where you aimed, everytime.

Door is open, target is not turning, not changing speed, not evading, nothing...

-> still misses or hit the tail when aiming for 1st masts on short sitance... In SH3 I never have a problem. In SH4 most of the time... I strongly believe its a bug.

[Steel_Tomb]

you could also just adjust the gyro angle thing on the left panel a bit to lead the target a bit so it hits, thats what I did and they tend to hit where I aim now, I've moved over to the manual TDC now though its much more enjoyable than "point and shoot".

[tommyk]

> I've moved over to the manual TDC now though its much more enjoyable than "point and shoot".

I wish I could but I am not there yet. I need/want simple mode for now...

[nofxx]

I can confirm this.... this left to right thing...

At first I tought i was using the stadimenter wrong..... like ... in my head torps later = ship distance > then you computed...
So i aim the "waterline" a bit down....really close to the flag (hightest point, right?)... thus incresing the distance... and the torp did i lil better.... there are some shots of how to aim the stadimeter? i dont know if I 'm doing it right.....

[macky]

dunno if this helps from a nub, but as a nub I am on easy and 0 realistic mode whilst I get used to the boat. Finding a lot out that way too.

OT, I can confirm I have no problem whatsoever in hitting any ship. One shotted a destroyer which hit dead centre in the Tokyo harbour, all right the destroyer was going slow, but it was moving in a left to right direction.

I obviously have no dud torpedos, could that be the issue?

[AVGWarhawk]

It works fine for me. I'm continously updating the information to the TDC. I make minor adjustments as I close. Speed is the biggest input and the most correct you will need. I just wish all torp doors could be opened. This part just seems silly. As I close I'm pressing the Q key and pressing the torpedo to use and searching for the firing button. What is the this? The multi-tasking thing at it's best:doh: . The torp doors need some work:yep:

[akdavis]

I guess it would be very helpful if those who are not having any issues could post a video of the training mission in which they input correct speed, AOB and range on the Mogami and get center of mass hits without compensating with the torpedo spread. If it works fine because you are inputing incorrect values (such as overestimating speed) into the TDC and computing a TDC solution that leads the target (with map contact updates on, the ship and the TDC solution marker will not overlap and keep pace with eachother), then it is still a bug.

Please note, all mystery is removed using map contact updates. You cannot ascribe this behavior to duds, erratic torpedos, etc, as all behavior of target, TDC and torpedoes can be observed on the attack map.

[tommyk]

> It works fine for me. I'm continously updating the information to the TDC.

AVG, threat is about Auto TDC... :)

[akdavis]

FYI, here is a pic using auto TDC:

http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/9206/tdcbug1vl3.jpg

As you can see, the TDC (white x with AOB line) has a perfect track on the center of the ship, yet the torpedo hits the stern. This can be repeated over and over with no variation in the torpedo's behavior.

Furthermore, behavior in manual TDC is identical (if you can work the TDC long enough to get close to such a perfect track). Torpedo will fall behind in the exact same manner as with auto TDC. TDC speed, AOB and range track are fine in auto and manual (although stadimeter range measuring in manual seems wonky and must be compensated for using map updates). The torpedo follows the gyro angle computed at the moment of firing properly. The calculated gyro angle is wrong (at least with targets moving L to R). Here is a pic of the same situation with manual TDC (note that due to the resoluation of the stadimeter control, exact range will not be obtained and track will be either slightly to the fore or to the back of the target, however at this range it has no significant impact on torpedo track (will hit within meters of the same point regardless if range is a bit short or long):

http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/3107/tdcbug2bv6.jpg

As you can see, all four torps are on track to hit at nearly the same spot on the stern. All four had tubes opened before each shot. All four had a bearing/range update just before launch.

As has already been noted, this only seems to affect Mk. 14s at the high speed setting. Low speed will strike center of target repeatedly under the exact same conditions. This suggests that the sim is not calculating the correct gyro angle for the high speed setting of the torpedo for some reason. Perhaps it is using a different (higher) speed than the torpedo is actually travelling at?

[Penelope_Grey]

OMG how do you get that screen up so you can see the torpedo path on the screen, in Sh3 you hit F6 whats it in this?

Thanks!

[AVGWarhawk]

> It works fine for me. I'm continously updating the information to the TDC.

AVG, threat is about Auto TDC... :)


Funny, I do not see that in the original post. I see a captain moving things around and attempting different settings that are not working. Well, ok, in manual mode the TDC works fine for me.:yep:

[akdavis]

OMG how do you get that screen up so you can see the torpedo path on the screen, in Sh3 you hit F6 whats it in this?

Thanks!

It's the attack map. I don't know the key, but it is under the navigation tab, second order from the left, the arrow with the crosshair. I think you need to have map contact updates on to see all the info displayed above.

[Penelope_Grey]

Thanks for the help!

[Torcher]

And here I thought I was just a really bad shot regardless of the white "X" and AOB line being damn near close to perfect with a manual setup.

I took akdavis' photo (thanx ak!) and superimposed CC's bearing tool to show the delta in degrees. Note that the bearing tool is not scaled properly for distance but it does show the degree marks. I also darkened up the marks and the torp for better legibility.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b197/TonyRockyhorror/tdcbugdegreedelta.jpg



Looks like about a 3 degree variance at 1000 (TDC shows 1085 so close enough)

[gnirtS]

I hadnt noticed in manual possibly because im not actually a good enough shot yet - i can hit a ship but not specific as to where.

It could be gyro angle or target speed or torpedo speed being slightly misread by the sims.

Has anyone confirmed it doesnt happen with Mk14s on low speed setting?

In a way it'd make more sense affecting both auto AND manual and could be the same bugin both.

Also, did anyone play with 1.0 and this to see if its in there too ?

[RangerX3X]

There is no bug! As with SH3, the auto targeting does not account for the time it takes to open the torpedo door. Try hitting "q" and wait 5 seconds before you fire. If you use external view, you can always take a quick peak to make sure the door is fully opened. As long as the target's speed and heading do not change and as long as your sub isn't turning while firing, you should hit precisely where you aimed, everytime.

As clearly stated in my response above, the door is opened and I confirm it by viewing it externally. The torp fires and is out of the ship as I press the fire button.

It is a bug, and quite frankly a killer bug. :down:

[Jungman]

For testing, use the simple setting.

The Torpedo_US.sim file shows the Mark 14 is using the correct speeds of 31 and 46 knots. The Range is in Meters 4100m and 8200m in hex code.

Since a meter is a bit longer by about 10% than yard, all scaling is off by about 10% maybe.

I was testing the run length time of torp M14 fast and slow, it seems as if the calculation only works if you use YARDS, as if the METER raw hex data distance is still being used. It does not quite match up.

I was plotting and measuring raw data off the map, no TDC stuff so to be independent. If the games ruler and scale are hardcoded with math calaculator for the TDC is scaled wrong..it would lead to lagging Mark14 torp???

I give a theory the values of 4100 and 8200 hex inside the file was not converted as the rest of the torpedo data speed. I did not think the actual maximum range would affect TDC result, unless somehow the Meter to Imperial math conversion equation became messed up from SH3.

[akdavis]

I hadnt noticed in manual possibly because im not actually a good enough shot yet - i can hit a ship but not specific as to where.

It could be gyro angle or target speed or torpedo speed being slightly misread by the sims.

Has anyone confirmed it doesnt happen with Mk14s on low speed setting?

In a way it'd make more sense affecting both auto AND manual and could be the same bugin both.

Also, did anyone play with 1.0 and this to see if its in there too ?

As noted above, this does not effect the Mk. 14 at "low" speed. That hits dead on center with no apparent variations in the TDC's calculations other than the shift in gyro angle. This indicates there is no error in the TDC's target speed. The error seems to lie in the gyro angle compensation for the Mk. 14 at high speed, or the gyro is right, but the Mk.14 is not travelling at the correct speed.

Not sure about other marks of torpedo, not sure about v1.0.

For testing, use the simple setting.

THe Torpedo_US.sim file shows the Mark 14 is using the correct speeds of 31 and 46 knots. The Range is in Meters 4100m and 8200m in hex code.

Since a meter is a bit longer by about 10% than yard, all scaling is off by about 10% maybe.

I was testing the run length time of torp M14 fast and slow, it seems as if the calculation only works if you use YARDS, as if the METER distance is stil being used. It does not quite match up.

I was plotiing and measuring raw data off the map, no TDC stuff so to be independent. If the games ruler and scale or hardcoded math calaculator for the TDC is scaled wrong..it would lead to lagging Mark14 torp???

But this would cause errors at both high and low speed. In fact, the error at low speed would be even worse, I would think. I know the .sim file says 46 knots, but how do we know that is what is actually happening in the game?

[AVGWarhawk]

I always use low speed on the torps. I'm just used to this function. At any rate, I do not have issues with the TDC using slow on the torps. Usually bad calculation on target speeds get me in trouble.

[akdavis]

I always use low speed on the torps. I'm just used to this function. At any rate, I do not have issues with the TDC using slow on the torps. Usually bad calculation on target speeds get me in trouble.

Well, then that would explain...
Well, ok, in manual mode the TDC works fine for me.:yep:
;)

[Jungman]

I measure my boat moving at 11 knots left to right, the time in seconds to travel 1 nautical mile = 2025.37 yards. Yet I swear it was only 1835 something by using the in game map ruler scale. I am using the Imperial setting in gameplay.

Guess what? 1 nm =~ 1835 meters. is the game scale for Meter and Yards correct?

Maybe slow torpedo error is less affect than a fast one in proportion.

Another experiment, I set the Range in the attack map and the map will show how much time it will take the torpedo to travel that long green line (it is displayed). As a second point to measure I time how long it goes until it runs out and stops at it maximum range.

I find that the numbers are off?? by about 7%.

One question is do the slow torpedo hit 'exactly' dead center using Auto? The error should still show up, but for one not as bad since it is moving slower relative to Targe Speed. In the calculation the error is reduced more than you think, but it should still be there somewhat.
:-?

[AVGWarhawk]

Give slow a try. Seriously, I have no issues with slow setting. The only time I use fast is for warships. Also, I get into 1500 feet or closer and this alleviates any small miscalculation on speed. It is just the way I skipper my sub when attacking;)

[AVGWarhawk]

Just a thought, if the game originally came in meters and then patched to show imperial. The mechanics of the game are still in meters but the picture we see is feet instead of meters. Yet the torps fire as if on a meter scale and not imperial measurement. In other words, our eyes deceive us thinking we are using feet but the actual mechanics within the game is still in meters? Further out you are from target the worse the calculation gets?


Just wondering:hmm:

[Jungman]

I am going to do some more testing. It could be that it only affect Fast Mark14 torpedo only and it is a specific hardcode error in the game equation used for the Auto TDC.

I do suspect the ruler scaling in the game is using Meter and Imperial mix matched.

The error is not proportional from slow speed to high speed, the Target speed must be taken into account relative to the Torpedo.

Man, this is wierd. I need to test more, to get the above results in the picture. I am using Auto TDC, Imperial measurement. Maybe the Patch that allows switching from Meter to Imperial had a small error.

[Jungman]

Just a thought, if the game originally came in meters and then patched to show imperial. The mechanics of the game are still in meters but the picture we see is feet instead of meters. Yet the torps fire as if on a meter scale and not imperial measurement. In other words, our eyes deceive us thinking we are using feet but the actual mechanics within the game is still in meters? Further out you are from target the worse the calculation gets?


Just wondering:hmm:

I just saw your post. Yes that is what my data is leading me to think.
------------------------
BTY Even the map scale in the above picture of attack map shows scale in Meters and he is using Imperial I believe... I cannot read it. In my game, the Attack map show the scale symbol as '250 Meter' even though I have it set on Imperial.

Try timing the torpedo to range and see what speeds you get. It is not what you think. Einstein's time-space warp the world by 10% ratio of Meters to Yard. :)

[akdavis]

Just a thought, if the game originally came in meters and then patched to show imperial. The mechanics of the game are still in meters but the picture we see is feet instead of meters. Yet the torps fire as if on a meter scale and not imperial measurement. In other words, our eyes deceive us thinking we are using feet but the actual mechanics within the game is still in meters? Further out you are from target the worse the calculation gets?


Just wondering:hmm:

I doubt it. Why would Mk. 14s consistently hit point of aim on low speed, then consistently miss aiming point when switched to high speed, with both auto and manual solutions? If it were a universal measurements error, all torpedos and all speeds would have problems. Also, how could the TDC perfectly track the ships contact on the attack map if the measurements were out of whack? It would introduce all sorts of errors with the TDC calculations relative to the ships actual position. For all I can tell, the ship is exactly where the TDC believes it is. The sim just doesn't know how to properly compensate with gyro angle for the Mk. 14's high speed, for whatever reason. Furthermore, it has still not been determined if this is only occuring with left to right solutions. I kinda feel it is, but don't have a controlled scenario to test this.


One question is do the slow torpedo hit 'exactly' dead center using Auto? The error should still show up, but for one not as bad since it is moving slower relative to Targe Speed. In the calculation the error is reduced more than you think, but it should still be there somewhat.
:-?

Slow Mk. 14s hit exactly at point of aim/computed impact point, both auto and manual (with a good solution)

[JSF]

Open your tubes first.

Thanks!...

[JSF]

In manual or auto...WITH DOORS OPEN......1K yrds..no matter the speed I have to lead unit by 1/2 ship length to achieve hit in vicinity of middle.

One thought I had was that the speed of the fish default to slow irregardless if you select fast. Seems to have no effect one way or the other.

[tommyk]

For me with slow speed the mk14 hits the spot but on high speed it misses (doors open with metric). Maybe speed of mk14 is too slow on high speed setting or TDC misjudges on high speed setting...

[gnirtS]

I think the game is metric and converts.

A tell tale sign is when diving, depth call outs are "33ft,66ft,101ft" and so on. Odd until you realise thats 10 metre increments.

Also "depth under keel is over 3280ft sir". Odd figure until you realise thats 1000m.

That alone and the quick patch hints to me the game is doing some conversion to its metric based backbone. Possibly conversion errors in there.

I also suspect thats why "A" crashes to desktop. A dodgy conversion getting or sending an invalid response to set depth routine.

Im going to create some scenarios now to test Mk14 on low speed right-left and left-right.

[Jungman]

Thanks for the reply. I think we can agree that then this problem lies only with the Mark 14 Fast speed setting (either Metric or Imperial), and not the scaling?

The game's Mark 23 is the exact same (except for the color) as the Mark 14 but with only the Fast setting available. that was true in real life (cheaper to make and no one used a slow torpedo anyway).

Now does the Mark 23 torpedo do this also?

If it does not, then there must exist either in the Data folder Library files a way to see what is the problem, or it is a hardcoded problem in EXE. A metric measure in place of a yard something. the numbers are quite close to that ratio Meter/yard.

Now we can make a quick fix either way until this 'bug' is confirmed/patched.

[gnirtS]

Anyone know how to specift torpedo loadout in mission editor?

[akdavis]

One thought I had was that the speed of the fish default to slow irregardless if you select fast. Seems to have no effect one way or the other.

No, the speeds are different.

[gnirtS]

Some confirmation after a quick test.

Position keeper on and off for both.
Mk14 on high misses by 3.5 degrees or so after for a target range 1100yds doing 10kts

Mk14 on LOW speed hits very slightly after of aim point but only about 10-20ft under the same conditions.

This seems to work for auto and manual TDC and also left-right and right-left shots.

So it looks like the Mk14 isnt flying at the same speed the TDC thinks it is.

Anyone else want to verify?

[akdavis]

I can also verify that crossing direction does not matter. Same error occurs with high speed torps on targets crossing R to L. All 4 torps below were fired with the same solution under the same conditions. HIGH speeds torps 1 & 3 miss behind. LOW speed torps 2 & 4 are on track for point of aim/calculated impact point. As you can see, increasing range and lower AOB will cause outright misses with HIGH speed torps, even using AUTO TDC.

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/1486/tdcbug3hl9.jpg

[gnirtS]

Same with manual TDC. Fiddly to aim as you need to take a range and send immediately prior to fire (with PK turned off). If the PK is turned on, regardless of where you look or what you send to TDC torpedos are always targetted to the X.


But it does seem to be a bug with Mk14 on high speed setting, low does work as advertised. Cant check other torps as no idea how to edit loadout in the game.

[Jungman]

Results of more testing. The High Speed setting of the Mark 14 torpedo is actually only moving at 34 knots instead 46 knots.

Use the Training mission. Shoot Torp, it travelled 1272 yards to impact in 66 seconds.

1272/66 = 19.3 yards/sec.

Since 1 knot = 1 nm/hr = 2025.37 yards in 3600 seconds = 0.5626 yards/sec,

So 19.3/ (0.5626) = 34.25 knots.

A regular 46 knot torpedo moves at 25.88 yards/sec.

The value inside Torpedo_US.sim there is one that is set for 34 knots, under dud_reduction_speed. Plus the Dud chance is strange to determine.

I wonder if I placed in there the regular 46 knots, my High Speed Mark 14 torpedos would hit perfect? Is it a coinsidence? Can someone confirm this speed of 34 knots or did I mess it up?

You are shooting all Dud as far as the game is concerned and the reduced rate in speed is 34 knots.

[NefariousKoel]

Good work Jungman, if this is the case.

I will test changing that value and see if that's what is the problem.

Although, I did have an instance earlier when I loaded up the game and, for once, the SecuRom didn't take forever to check as it often does. This time, all correct inputs and all my torpedoes on 0 to +2 spread hit the target.

I also wonder if it's a Fade type screwy thing.

Anyway, I'll check modifying the "dud" torpedo speed. That's a horrible horrible way to simulate a dud torpedo if it's the case.

[gnirtS]

Just tested, both with and without duds enabled and can confirm this.

Shooting at targets 1112 and 2386 yards away using high and low speed torpedos. Stationary targets directly 0 degree bearing from the bow so no error introduced by torpedo turning etc. Ie totally straight line shots.

Formula used:

(Range in yards / 2025) * 3600 then dividing that figure by number of seconds to take to hit target.

Raw results:

Range 1112 yards, TDC claims 40 second travel time, it takes 56
Speed = 35.30kts

Range 1112 yards, TDC claims 40 seconds travel time, it takes 55.5
Speed = 35.35kts

Range 2386 yards, TDC claims 1min 30 seconds travel time, it takes 1min 57
Speed = 36.25kts

Range 2386 yards, TDC claims 1min 30 seconds travel time, it takes 1min 58 seconds
Speed = 36.30kts

Test average:- 35.8kts


High speed torpedos

Range 2382 yards, TDC claims 2 min 13 second travel, it takes 2min 13 seconds. TWICE
Speed = 31.8kts



Some variation in the numbers there but important to note the TDC time estime and actual are identical for LOW speed torpedos. With averaging etc this is probably 32kts

For the HIGH speed there seems to be more variation so would need more tests, the further the distance the better to reduce error. However it seems to be doing about 36kts. No higher. Definately not 46.

Looks like you've found out WHY these torps are missing. Hopefully its a simple 1 hex edit mod to fix. Could be fade but if it was id expect them to randomise speed somewhere and on all torps to keep it err "interesting".

Note this was on a "taking forever" game load attempt for me if it makes any difference.

[Jungman]

That is what I find. Other speeds are 35.7, 36.1, 36.1, 32.57, 35.83 knots.

I did those with the change of the dud_speed_reduction edit and one other value of 36 (later that is the exit speed of the torpedo). origianl 34 = 08 42 hex 46 = 38 42 I thought the 0 was transposed from a 3, no luck for me there, but was a good guess.

Since the range calcualtion are being done in metric, the sim file has it in metric, maybe change that.

I could cheat and make the speed of 46 knots to something higher in that ratio of 46/36 then they would work as they are suppose too.

I will try that next. if it works...what the heck.

[akdavis]

Good work Jungman, if this is the case.

I will test changing that value and see if that's what is the problem.

Although, I did have an instance earlier when I loaded up the game and, for once, the SecuRom didn't take forever to check as it often does. This time, all correct inputs and all my torpedoes on 0 to +2 spread hit the target.

I also wonder if it's a Fade type screwy thing.

Not likely. Fade should be the last thing we blame when it comes to easily repeatable bugs.

Anyway, I'll check modifying the "dud" torpedo speed. That's a horrible horrible way to simulate a dud torpedo if it's the case.

To be fair, Mk. 14s didn't always hold to consistent speeds, and there is also a crew trait that allows you to boost torpedo speed 20% (on that note, it would be interesting to see what happens if we introduced such a crew member into the situation with no other changes), so clearly some variable speed is built into the engine. However, if the above calculations are correct, then a "random" failure chance that makes the vast majority, if not all, 46 knot torpedos run more than 25% below their speed with no compensation from the TDC is absurd, to say the least. Also, why would the same torpedos be so damn good at pegging their 31 knot setting?

I'll admit that I'm seeing little, if any, spread in salvo due to individual torpedo variability, which is historically incorrect, but if the above variable is governing the observed behavior, then that is not the way to go about it.

Also, just for a guideline, A 40 sec. TDC estimate for 1000 yards would indicate the TDC is using a torp speed of 45 knots.

[gnirtS]

Just to remove another variable, ive tried it with the game set to metric and get identical behavior.

Edit:- some more tests would be interesting here, get a large data set for all ranges out to max to see if torps always fire out at the same speed or do they vary slightly as would be expected.

My above data would hint it varies but a sample size of 4 with only 2 different ranges isnt enough to draw a conclusion from.

[Tobowsi]

Thanks to those of you like Jungman and gnirtS who went through and tested the actual speeds of the torps. I mentioned in another thread last night that I was thinking of doing that but didn't get around to it. Glad to see someone did and that I'm not just imagining things when it appears to me that slow speed works pretty well and high speed is useless at the moment. (The high speed torps certainly don't seem that much faster in the water, either.)

Also, thanks to akdavis for posting screenshots of the issue. Hopefully the devs will see those and have a better mental image (and visual proof) of what we're saying here.

I can certainly understand if the devs wanted to introduce duds and/or failure rates or model inconsistencies in actual speeds, but it looks like testing has shown so far that this is more of a bug than "working as designed". For every fish to be 25% slower than expected every time it's set on "high" has to be a bug, especially when the "no dud torpedoes" option is selected. Have a couple knots fluctuation in speed than the TDC expects, sure, but 12 knots every time???

Hopefully we can find a setting to change that will fix the issue for us until the devs fix it for everyone, but until then (and for immersion's sake, LOL), I guess we can just blame the Bureau of Ordnance for this and just set for "slow", just like some skippers changed the depths of their fish because they were running too deep or like when they removed the influence exploders because they weren't working. LOL

[Jungman]

I am confused. I wanted to just do a simple hex edit to make the Torpedo move faster from 46 knot to 59 to compensate for the lag.

No go. Nothing I edit really gets into the game. I cannot make the torpedo move any faster.

The game needs the file, and you can make some changes, are the speed values located in the EXE, since the numbers for changes in the .sim show up in game, but the torp are still at the same speed.

Anyone hack the .sim file to get ANY torpedo to move faster than 36 knots? that is where the data is located. The whole thing seems Fubar and was hung together as if they ran out of time due to pressure to release it.

I do not understand it. It is not like SH3 files. What am I doing wrong?

[PeriscopeDepth]

The Mk 10 torpedo has a speed of 36 knots. So perhaps someone got confused when entering speeds in? Or the TDC somehow thinks it's shooting a MK 10? I wonder if this bug exists on the Mk 23 as well, as that is a Mk 14 with no low speed setting. Edit: Oh, and does this bug only effect Auto TDC, or both?

PD

[tommyk]

Very Good teamwork in prove and falsification! :up:

I only wish the QA-Team would have been near that. Torpedo speeds are somewhat essential in subsims :)

Good Idea setting up a driving range to measure time to impact (and thus speed). :yep:

[gnirtS]

Oh, and does this bug only effect Auto TDC, or both?
PD

Both

[Jungman]

More testing with other torpedos.

Mark 10 works just fine.

Mark 23 is just like the high speed setting Mark 14, runs too slow and is off.

Big laugh for the Mark 23 it actually cost you 100 renown for it is worthless.

I tried to change the speed of the Mark 10 for testing, but changing the hex value in the Torpedo_US.sim file for speed has no affect. I think these speeds are hardcode in the EXE.

[tommyk]

> I tried to change the speed of the Mark 10 for testing, but changing the hex value
> in the Torpedo_US.sim file for speed has no affect. I think these speeds are
> hardcode in the EXE.

Hmm, that would explain it. Maybe the "Torpedo_US.sim" is not read at all and the exe just uses the exe-defaults (which are wrong for other then slow speed torps). Either way, what a shame...

[gnirtS]

Could test by creating a dummy file of the same name with no data? If game still works with normal figures its ignoring it.

Or change everthing to 99 or whatever.

[tommyk]

SH4 crashes if you remove it, so it is aware of the file missing... That does not mean it uses the data within :)

[gnirtS]

What about just creating a dummy file ?

[tommyk]

What about just creating a dummy file ?

same... CTD

[Jungman]

Correct, removal CTD. It still is reading other data from it that does get used in game. Torpedo_US.sim

Changing the torp speed only affect the 'numbers' on the attack screen for how long it would take a torpedo to hit. However, it does not change the real physical in game speed of the torpedo run.

I did notice this. I can change the speed of exit upon fire out of the tube, and the distance it must travel before arming. Now I upped that speed from default 36 knot for say 300 feet to much faster 100 knots for 600 feet. Funny that is the same speed it is stuck at...

I was able to get the effective overall speed up to target. This is effective for 1000 yard hit ~ 40 knots. Longer ranges decreases back to 36 knot number. And you can't fire too close to the ship under the stock default arming distance.

Still working on this. It would be better than nothing.
-------

I agree. The real numbers are hardcoded somewhere else for the main torpedo cruise speed.

[Razman23]

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b197/TonyRockyhorror/tdcbugdegreedelta.jpg


Can someone explain to me what the line that comes out of the front of the sub represents? I know the white X and white line represents the target and direction of travel but I have yet to figure out what that other line is for. Does it show a acceptable firing solution or what?

I am using 100% realism so I dont get all that other info shown.


(Thanx Big T, for letting me borrow your image for my question :up: )

[tommyk]

imho the line out of the sub is the line the torpedo will travel when you release it with current settings...

[Razman23]

imho the line out of the sub is the line the torpedo will travel when you release it with current settings...

That is what I thought as well but as you can see by the images posted on this thread, the fish and line do not match. I even checked it on my pc to see what it does and its the same way.

[tommyk]

imho the line out of the sub is the line the torpedo will travel when you release it with current settings...

That is what I thought as well but as you can see by the images posted on this thread, the fish and line do not match. I even checked it on my pc to see what it does and its the same way.

I believe there is definatly something wrong with TDC and/or torpedo settings in SH4 but I dont know what it is... mk14 low speed seems to work best for me...

[akdavis]

imho the line out of the sub is the line the torpedo will travel when you release it with current settings...

That is what I thought as well but as you can see by the images posted on this thread, the fish and line do not match. I even checked it on my pc to see what it does and its the same way.

The light green line is the gyro angle (and expected torpedo path with no spread) generated by the TDC. The dark green line is the spread offset applied to the generated gyro angle (if they merge, spread is 0 deg.) and will be the expected path of the current torpedo at launch.

The generated gyro angle is continuously updated by the TDC. Unless you turn the TDC off the second the torpedo is launched, the gyro angle line will not match the track of a torpedo that has already left the tube as it is updating for the next shot.

[Razman23]

The light green line is the gyro angle (and expected torpedo path with no spread) generated by the TDC. The dark green line is the spread offset applied to the generated gyro angle (if they merge, spread is 0 deg.) and will be the expected path of the current torpedo at launch.

The generated gyro angle is continuously updated by the TDC. Unless you turn the TDC off the second the torpedo is launched, the gyro angle line will not match the track of a torpedo that has already left the tube as it is updating for the next shot.

So shouldnt the light green line actually line up on the white X then?

It would make sense that the light green line hit the X and confirm you have a good firing solution. Dontcha think?

Unless the 'bug' causes the line not to match up.

[akdavis]

The light green line is the gyro angle (and expected torpedo path with no spread) generated by the TDC. The dark green line is the spread offset applied to the generated gyro angle (if they merge, spread is 0 deg.) and will be the expected path of the current torpedo at launch.

The generated gyro angle is continuously updated by the TDC. Unless you turn the TDC off the second the torpedo is launched, the gyro angle line will not match the track of a torpedo that has already left the tube as it is updating for the next shot.

So shouldnt the light green line actually line up on the white X then?

It would make sense that the light green line hit the X and confirm you have a good firing solution. Dontcha think?

Unless the 'bug' causes the line not to match up.

No, the white X and line is the TDC's current calculation of the target's position and course. Assuming you are aiming at the center of the ship, then that is the X. If you have aimed at the bow, then that is the X. Where the white X is now, is not where it will be when the torpedo arrives

If the actual ship's location and direction of travel matches up with the TDC marker, then the TDC is giving you a good solution. The way to know if you have bad solution is if the TDC target does not reflect your actual target.

The only thing that determines whether or not you have a good TDC solution (bugs aside) is if the actual target is doing what the TDC calculates based on your input. Your input determines the accuracy of the solution. The TDC is not a super-computer able to judge the validity of your input. If you want a computer that tells you if you have good solution or not, then turn map contact updates on and see if the TDC marker and ship marker match-up over time.

[jmjohnson36]

OK mates...the delay in torps firing is normal....not like other games where things AUTOMATICALLY happen... Crew experience, command level, and type of torp cause a delay...not much,,but happens....also Mates on real diesels a torp firing takes about 3 to 5 seconds.

LTCMDR (RET)
ROYAL NAVY

[-Pv-]

I have had every 1st torpedo hit dead center (the aiming point) when the last thing I did before firing was update the status of the TDC (assuming I had a correct attack profile and I had the door open.)

In the last kasman23 pic, if the dark line was ahead of the target and 90 degrees and your sub was also slightly ahead of the target when you fired, then you would have a good solution. The black line shows where your torps would go if you fired NOW. Another way to validate your firing solution on the tactical map is if the torps arrived where the black line WAS when you fired. Those who send pics of their torps missing only demonstrate to us the miss. To see if the torp was fired correctly, we need a pic taken when the fire button was pressed.

Practice making the torps arrive on the black line when the situation is close to ideal and you'll get a hit every time (except for torp failures, incorrect depth, target course and speed changes and weather effects.) Keep updating the TDC. It's not a sensor-driven device like a Maveric missile. It needs data from YOU! Not just once. Depending on the length of attack and any course/speed changes you and the target make, or scope washing out, you may need to update it several times, and ALWAYS just before you fire.
-Pv-

[NefariousKoel]

Good advice -Pv- and I update just before each shot.

Neal stated that the Devs acknowledged there is an issue with this TDC insanity. I hope it's fixed in the next update.:up:

[Chrall]

I don't if this help, but i've found out that if you sign a key to:
[Cmd312]
Name=Toggle_open_close_torpedo_tube
Ctxt=1
you can open torpedo tube 1 and still use "Q" to open another one. Note that this command only works for tube 1, but atleast you can have two tubes open at the same time.

[tommyk]

> I have had every 1st torpedo hit dead center (the aiming point) when the last thing I did before firing was update the status of the TDC (assuming I had a correct attack profile and I had the door open.)

pv, I envy you sending every single torpedo dead center but we talked about AUTO_ TDC...

Threat title: Auto TDC consistently misses (torps arrive late always)

Of course you can manualy correct a misleading TDC for a wrong torpedo speed...

And no, it is not a question of opening the doors. they are open and with fast mk14 the AUTO TDC in SH4 calculates (wrong) until the very last fraction of a second until the torp leaves the tupe...

[cueceleches]

I had a nice experience yesterday with auto TDC.
I was sailing out of Hiroshima harbour (spy mission) and got sight of an escort carrier and two destroyers...the three of them seating still in the middle of the channel!

I postioned my sub at 1000m, torp depth, speed to slow, etc...and followed the green triangle inicator on the periscope compass that inicates a good TDC solution. It indicated a 0º bearing. Just in front of my boat. So I decided not to add spread angle and left it at 0. Results? Two consecutive eels dead center on the carrier.

Indeed, torp speeds must be porked since I only get proper kills while the target is standing still on the water. Need badly a patch!

[tommyk]

I believe for now it seems mk10 or mk14 (in slow configuration) works best in auto TDC...

[elanaiba]

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/7201/radiomescv7.jpg

[tommyk]

Hahaha, GREAT! Thank you! :up: :up: :up:

[PeriscopeDepth]

:lol:

PD

[vodkavera]

Where did you get that from?

/VV

[PeriscopeDepth]

Where did you get that from?

/VV
He is a member of the dev team, and I'm sure with all the research they did they came across/made up USN communications forms. As for the message itself, well as it says it's a message from the dev team.

PD

[elanaiba]

What he said....

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/7564/danforumuy7.gif

[vodkavera]

What he said....

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/7564/danforumuy7.gif

Great news, man.
Keep up the good work.
Besides a few things it´s a great game. Like SH III was/is.
:up:
/VV

[Faamecanic]

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/7201/radiomescv7.jpg


ROFL....that is GREAT!! :up: WILCO COMSUBPAC...slow speed only!