Convoy escorts...Be more agressive

[scg737]

Been playing SH4 ~22 hrs and just had a comment...

May 1942...I was patroling in the Java Sea in the USS Shark(horribly shallow) and ran across a convoy in box formation...2 large tankers leading the "box" and 3 destroyers on escort duty. The destroyers were arranged ahead, port, & starboard of the box at ~1500 yd seperation each.

To make a long story short, one taker took 3 torps to starboard and the other tanker, 2. Neither one was sinking and I was out of torps.

Escort problem 1: All the time I was pumping torps into these tankers, all the escorts did was shine their spotlights across the water in my direction.

Aggrivated, and wanting to test the SH4 AI somewhat, I decided to surface in between the 2 tankers and open up with the deck gun. Not being entirely reckless, I knew that each tanker would shield the sub from the destroyers to port & starboard...but the one ahead of the convoy would have a clear shot at me.

Once I hit the surface and fired the 1st shot, shotlights and starshells exploded all around. 7 shots later the first tanker was down and not a single shot had been fired at my sub. The destroyer forward, had come around and was making flank speed at me...range ~1,200 yds. I fired 9 shells into the 2nd tanker and she exploded. About this time the destroyer had closed to ~800 yards and it's first shot landed hopelessly beyond the sub. I ordered flank speed, full right rudder, and crashed dive to 120ft. Once on the bottom, I went to silent running and crept away from the clueless destroyers.

Escort Problem 2: I don't want to jump on the "Well SHIII w/ GWX did it this way and SH4 sucks...." bandwagon, becuase I like SH4 alot. That being said, if I had tried to do the antics above in real life or in SHIII I'm 95% certain I would be dead, dead, dead, dead...

Anyone else notice these passive escorts?

[Drifter9]

Yeah, I had a similar issue with the lethargic convoy escorts as well. I was in the Java Sea on my third patrol in an S-boat. I had four torpedos’ left and I had gotten into a good position ahead of a convoy. I made sure I found a spot deep enough to hide from the escort. I came up to periscope depth and decided to target two small ships and one large one with my four remaining fish. I wanted to make sure I got at least one or two more kills before going back to port. The first target, a small old tanker exploded and split in half seconds before the other small merchant was hit. The second ship listed badly to the port but you could tell it wasn’t going to sink. The third ship, a large euro merchant took both fish with a bad list to port as well. The sea was annoyingly calm so it wasn’t like Mother Nature would help me sink these two boats.
I did about the same thing you did; I went back deep, waited for the convoy to sail off a bit and then surfaced between the ships. I started punching holes in the larger ships water line and how cool is that! I love seeing the holes in the hull, Its one of my favorite features in the game. I took out the large merchant and had already begun firing on the other small ship before the first volley from one of the three Fubuki class DD’s zipped over my head. I increased speed to flank, started changing my course, and began firing AP at him. I killed him before he could ram or shoot me. I was astonished and since the second boat had just started engaging me I began firing on it too. I also sung that boat without taking too much damage but the 3rd DD damaged me so badly I couldn’t submerge. I went on and finished off all but one of the convoys ships before I ran out of ammo and limped home to Australia. The Fubukis are fast. The manual says 38 knots. There is no way I should have had that much time. Also, can someone tell me if my 5’’ deck gun destroy the destroyers turrets? With my first few shots I was able to set fire to the first two destroyers turrets. They didn’t explode off the ship like the small guns on merchants do when you hit them but I didn’t seem to receive as much fire from them after I hit their turrets.
I am playing on the basic medium level that’s the default. I’d figure if I put it on a harder setting the enemy cannon fire would have been far deadlier. I hope??
This is a great game. I love the detail. I played SH3 but I like this game better. I didn't give SH3 much of a chance because I hated playing as the Nazi's. I was really hoping SH4 would have some British or Japanese missions too. Oh well.... maybe in SH5.

[Skorn]

Just finished my third patrol, and I've only been depth charged once. Usually they just look around with their searchlights and then move on. I wouldn't mind a little more danger...

[Drifter9]

I've noticed that the slow moving convoy/task force groups are usually the easy targets. You would think that a slow moving DD would be better set to detect a sub than a fast moving one but so far it doesn't seem to be the case(for me with one weekend worth of play). I sunk a heavy cruiser & a light cruiser at the head of a slow moving convoy without a trouble. However, I tried attacking a very similar group moving at a fast speed and the destroyers when crazy. I think the groups that move at one knot have some sort of bug.

[gord96]

same thing here. was on a patrol in the South China Seas last night when I attacked a convoy with 3 destoyers escorts. I pumped torpedo after torpedo into the tankers and all the destoyers did was shine their lights around. Even in SH3 vanilla the destroyers would go nuts and depth charge the crap out of you if you got near the convoy. :damn:

[tater]

Look at the pluss side, in RL the Combined Fleet would never have tasked 3 real DDs to escort anything non-naval. Fleet oilers, yes, merchant tankers, no.

tater

[Trout]

"realistic escorts" should be a difficulty option in this game. Passive escorts will certainly limit how much I play and enjoy the game.

Trout

[Drifter9]

Should the Japanese even have a convoy system in the early war? I understand its important to have warships around to make the game harder and more fun but I always thought that was one of the Japanese flaws, they didn't protect their baggage train. I like the idea of realistic escorts for an option I also agree that there shouldn't be heavy cruisers or a destroyer squadron escorting some merchant ships. I'd like to see an option for aggressive escorts and another option for smaller escort ships. I really think there should be a lot more sub chasers, corvettes, gun boats, and so on escorting smaller early war merchants. Also, barges were very common in supplying smaller Japanese outposts. Most of the interdiction of these would have been by PT boats but submarines did go gun to gun with them as well.
Its a great game but I think its a bit overboard when you have a Mugami heavy cruiser, two Kumas, and a squadron of the IJNs heaviest destroyers as your default escort group for a modest sized convoy in 1942.

[Anachronous]

The more I play, the more I notice this. Most the esorts stop dead in the water allowing me to take a good shot before they decide to start hunting.

[partyboy]

Hm.. whenever I surface in front of anything I usually get harrassed pretty hard. Planes will strafe/bomb.. continue to bomb after I submerge. Destroyers open their guns on me and depth charge. If I shake an escort and attack ships a little further away, the escorts will come speeding back in my direction. They try to hunt me down with their sonar and will keep depth charging me.

The game defaults to 'easy,' I assume you're turning it up?

[Drifter9]

The more I play, the more I notice this. Most the esorts stop dead in the water allowing me to take a good shot before they decide to start hunting.
Right! And unless I'm piloting a Gato filled with 24 torps I'm more likely to spend three or four fish on the escorts while they sit and ponder their situation so I can waste the convoy with my deck gun.
Does anyone else notice that fast or medium moving ships are a lot more alert than the ones that creep around at one knot?

[tater]

Should the Japanese even have a convoy system in the early war? I understand its important to have warships around to make the game harder and more fun but I always thought that was one of the Japanese flaws, they didn't protect their baggage train. I like the idea of realistic escorts for an option I also agree that there shouldn't be heavy cruisers or a destroyer squadron escorting some merchant ships. I'd like to see an option for aggressive escorts and another option for smaller escort ships. I really think there should be a lot more sub chasers, corvettes, gun boats, and so on escorting smaller early war merchants. Also, barges were very common in supplying smaller Japanese outposts. Most of the interdiction of these would have been by PT boats but submarines did go gun to gun with them as well.
Its a great game but I think its a bit overboard when you have a Mugami heavy cruiser, two Kumas, and a squadron of the IJNs heaviest destroyers as your default escort group for a modest sized convoy in 1942.
No, they really shouldn't. Also, why use the term "realistic escorts" (not slamming you, specifically) when "realisitc" might be what they are now, or even worse as a total system.

The IJN did not task what they considered valuable, offensive platforms (DDs) as routine escorts. Many did escort or ASW patrol duty, but not all that often. You can look at the TROMs at combinedfleet.com. I should go through and count the total DD-days escort/patrol duty for the war by year. I bet it doesn't add up to many DDs per merchant ship per day.

<EDIT> BTW, looks like the Minikaze Class was used much more often as an escort/ASW platform than the other DD types. Something to keep in mind.

tater

[tater]

I'm going through the DD TROMs systematically. Some DDs did loads od escort/patrol duty (usually not remarked), but many times the specific ships escorted are listed, and where they went. Amazing how many are a DD escorting 1 or 2 ships. The first "big" (~10 ships) convoys were not until 1943. 10-20 ship convoys were only routine from '44 on. Would be cool to make a map by month or week showing IJN ASW patrols/escorts. Daunting task with 134 DDs and 32 DEs (Matsu class) to deal with.

[DirtyHarry3033]

I found my 1st convoy last night in the East China Sea and experienced the same thing with the lazy DD's. Was a night approach, calm seas, no moon and very dark. 11 or 12 merchants, 3 DD's escorting.

I snuck inside the formation, fired 2 fish at a freighter, one hit, one miss. He went up in a massive explosion and sank. There was a DD no more than 600 yds off my bow, I took a quick look to see if he was headed my way but it's like he didn't even know anything had happened!!!

So I set up a few more shots then noticed something REALLY weird, all my shots were passing way in front of the targets??!?! What the #@@!@%??? Then I saw what was going on, the entire convoy had stopped dead in the water! And of course I still had the speed set at 9 kts or so on the TDC. There wasn't even a trace of bow wave on any of 'em, so I locked onto one with the periscope and just sat for a minute, no change in bearing.

I reloaded to see if it would happen again, but then I got hit by the dreaded "1fps" bug, couldn't even ESC out to the menu to quit gracefully. Had to alt-tab to desktop and kill SH4. I've turned off the EE to hopefully fix that bug, I'll try again tonight and see if it happens again.

[Drifter9]

Also, why use the term "realistic escorts" (not slamming you, specifically) when "realisitc" might be what they are now, or even worse as a total system.
True, I was just going with a prior posts comment for that option. Realistic wasn't a great choice but you got the jist. Who can say what a real escort would have been other than a vet or a historian.
Of course, like I said, you have to add warships for the fun factor. I mean blowing up or even finding one or two random cargo clunkers doesn't appeal to the masses. To keep things off the shelf and on your hard drive there needs to be cruisers and carriers zipping about for you to throw torps at.
I think a good mod would put almost all of the warships in task forces or small surface action groups, string out the cargo ships to small groups (like sampans and junks are in SH4) and limit their escort accordingly, and add a lot more gunboats, armed supply barges and small ships in the coastal waterways. Also, some Q ship style merch's would be nice too.

[tater]

In general, it seems to me that there should be more of the subchasers, and fewer DDs seen as escorts.

One thing I might be inclined to tweak would be to really push the VISUAL spotting skills of the IJN DDs in particular. They were very very well trained for night operations.

tater

[scg737]

One thing I might be inclined to tweak would be to really push the VISUAL spotting skills of the IJN DDs in particular. They were very very well trained for night operations.
tater
And this clearly isn't modeled in SH4. My sub was flooded with light, so much so that I couldn't actually see the tankers I was shelling but rather simply hurled rounds into the bright light, and the destroyer only got a single shot off...which missed.

BTW, great info on Japanese convoy operations and escort assignments from a historical standpoint. Much Thanks!

[FAdmiral]

I made my own mission from the editor for testing purposes in learning
more about how the enemy DDs work. In my first attempt, no mods,
there I was at PD with scope up watching a DD come within 288 (yards or meters?)
of me. Nothing, he didn't see me or detect me?? I sank the Seaplane Tender
he was escorting. All 4 DDs stopped and all I saw was blinking lights and a few
star shells fired. I waited, still doing 5 kts at PD with scope up. After about 10
minutes with nothing happening, I sank a Lt. Cruiser (1 torp was all it took).
Still nothing ?? The DDs didn't seem to know what to do. I was NOT detected
so I assume they were clueless on what action to take. I had set them all to
Veteran in the mission editor. This was on May 5, 1942 at 730 AM in the Coral Sea.
Sun was already up. Another time I tried to stay on the surface till seen and
then went under. This time they acted more like they should. They started
looking for me and dropped DCs in some areas but not close (I was at 200 ft.,
under thermal layer and silent running) At one time, one darted over the top
of me and I thought here it comes but he didn't drop. I was NOT detected.
As of now, I think DETECTION is the KEY element here. Without that, I don't
think the DDs know what to do !! I will continue further testing on this and
will use some of the mods that are supposed to increase DD agression...

JIM

[CaptCrashDive]

I don't know, think about it. You are an escort and out of no where a ship explodes, you know a sub is out there, maybe what side he is on, that's it. Stopping and listening isn't a bad idea, and from the literature I have seen Japanese ASW doctrine and sonar was pretty poor. Maybe they should have been more aggressive. I ran upon a TF of Java with 3 flat tops, set up about 1200 yds off, 4 fish on slow, dove to 200ft and started to motor off. 2 hits, and she sank. 3 DDs and 2 Cruisers came after me while the other kept on. Picked me up for a second, DCed near me, I fired off a decoy and made a speed run to clear datum. Slowed down. The 3 DDs were all over my noise maker, then planes showed up and they bombed it to. Eventually they moved off, but I made a mistake and kicked up the speed too soo, had a DD turn around and come at me again. I slowed down and he lost me. Crept on for a while, and eventually went clear. Was a pretty good run I thought. I was impressed by A.I. I have noticed however that they seem pretty lax when in formation, but when they come after you they can be tought to shake. I think without external view it would have been much harder. I am going to try it again like that and see.

[FAdmiral]

Patches from the devs are needed to fix bugs and make changes to the game engine & hard-coded elements.
Everything else (plain text files) can & will be addressed by the modders but they almost have to wait till the
devs release the patches first. From what I have observed so far: the AI DDs don't have the detection down
pat in SH4 like the Brit. DDs did in SH3 (actually this could be historical) and I can see that happening early in the
war years. The thing that irks me the most is when you do torp and sink a ship in the convoy they are guarding, the DDs don't seem to have a search plan they impliment in order to find you. Detection is one thing but looking for an enemy sub that just attacked the convoy the DD was guarding is lacking here. In plain words, the DDs in SH4 are just NOT doing their
job right. This may be hard-coded and a patch is needed to fix it. American Sub Doctrine at the start of WW2 in the
pacific was to protect the BB TFs and sink enemy warships (same as Japans). Adm Nimitz changed all that when he
figured that Japan, like England, was an island nation and needed to ship in all the resources to sustain itself. So he
used the German approach to go after the merchant & tanker ships (or convoys later) doing the resupply. I think that
caught Japan off-guard in relation to what American Subs would be doing till at least late in 1942 when they finally
started to catch on....

JIM

[TheSatyr]

The first thing the devs need to do is to remove decoys from the game. I have never ever read about a US sub using decoys in WW2.

It's totally unrealistic to give US subs something they never had or used. But then,considering how screwed up this game seems to be with historical things (Australians with Lancasters AND with upside down US insignias),I guess I shouldn't be too surprised.

It's a shame Microprose went out of business. SH1 was the only game in the series to get everything right.

[Werewolf13]

The first thing the devs need to do is to remove decoys from the game. I have never ever read about a US sub using decoys in WW2.

It's totally unrealistic to give US subs something they never had or used. But then,considering how screwed up this game seems to be with historical things (Australians with Lancasters AND with upside down US insignias),I guess I shouldn't be too surprised.

It's a shame Microprose went out of business. SH1 was the only game in the series to get everything right.No kidding! It's almost like they took SH3 and just modded it over to SH4 with a few changes.

Hell's Bell's... They couldn't even get something simple like the medals and Officer's uniforms right. How the heck can we expect them to have gotten escort AI or the fact that the Japanese didn't do convoys in the early war right? :damn:

[Drokkon]

The stopping of a convoy as the first ship being hit could be a way to model confusion. Since the japaneese would not consider it honorable to attack a noncom while a combatant was visable. Maybe early on in the war they tacked up alot of merchants losses do to mines. In the army you stop then find your way out. Could the japaneese have had the same doctrine at sea?

[DirtyHarry3033]

I played that convoy attack over again tonight after getting the "1 fps" bug sorted out, and it played out even funnier!

Restarting it before my 1st shot, the convoy was steaming along at aroud 8-9 kts. I crippled a merchant in the 2nd row, broke her back but she wouldn't sink, and just like before, the entire convoy came to a screeching halt.

This time there was a Fubuki DD stopped dead astern of me at about 600 yds. Just sitting there, showing no interest in me or anything else. No pinging, no searchlights, no nothing! That bit gets interesting, a little later...

So I set up a shot on a Large Modern Composite Freighter in the 3rd row and sent her to the bottom with a single torp.

After that 2nd attack, the DD suddenly woke up! Started pinging crap out of me, searchlights came on and sweeping the ocean but on the wrong side. (I was between her and the convoy) But she still didn't move an inch.

Don't know what I'm talking about of course, but with the DD knowing the position of the 2 ships I hit, seems she should have been able to triangulate my position pretty accurately. But nope, she just sat there!

I can hear the DD skipper now, doing his best Elmer Fudd impersonation:

"Be vewwy vewwy qwiet!!! I'm hunting submaweens!!!"

Then that "wascally submaween" outdid Bugs Bunny even ;) I had a textbook shot from the stern tubes, target dead astern at 600 yds, about 85 port AOB, target speed 0, my speed 0, can't miss!

I fired a fish, perfect shot and no dud, big explosion and Mr <fu>DD suddenly woke up and went to flank speed! Instead of coming after me though, he high-tailed it west as fast as he could, to put max distance between me and him asap :D

If I hadn't paid good money for this sim, it would have been hilarious. Think something is seriously broken here...

[tater]

The stopping of a convoy as the first ship being hit could be a way to model confusion. Since the japaneese would not consider it honorable to attack a noncom while a combatant was visable. Maybe early on in the war they tacked up alot of merchants losses do to mines. In the army you stop then find your way out. Could the japaneese have had the same doctrine at sea?

Except the japanese didn't do convoys much (before '43, and even then usually unescorted til '44), sure. ;)

As for japanese "honor" it was doctrine, not a sense of honor. They saw their role for what it was in their doctrine, they existed to whittle down the US fleet in preparation for the "decisive battle" with the Combined Fleet. All other goals were secondary. They fought like they trained, and they trained to attack warships towards the goal of decisive battle.

tater

[DirtyHarry3033]

Followup to my "Looney Tunes" convoy encounter.

I decided to get daring, and surface to take down that crippled freighter, a "Small Old Split Freighter", 2,436 tons, with my deck gun. Soon as I surfaced, another DD opened up on me from less than 1/2 mile, I could hear the shells whizzing overhead. Not a single hit! Had plenty of time to put 10 or 12 rounds of HE into the hulk and sink her, then crash dive without a scratch.

If I'd been playing SH3, those escorts would have been all over me like flies on sh*t from the start and I'd be lucky to get the 1st kill...

Total kills for the 1st part of this attack run:

1 - Small Old Split Freighter, 2,436 tons (1 mk 14, 12 HE rounds)
1 - Fubuki DD, 1,680 tons (1 mk 14)
1 - Large Modern Composite Freighter, 7189 tons (1 mk 14)

For a total of 11,305 tons for 10 minutes work. And I've got hits on 2 other freighters, one fish each, both in steering gear that will be easy kills in the morning.

I should really have to work harder than this...

[castorp345]

One thing I might be inclined to tweak would be to really push the VISUAL spotting skills of the IJN DDs in particular. They were very very well trained for night operations.

hey tater
this question probably belongs in the mod forum, but i'm curious if you're pushing ahead with tweaking the visual detection parameters, and if so which values you are adjusting?

cheers
hc

[tater]

I know squat about the sensor files, so no. As a mod noob, I was trying to stick to the ridiculously easy stuff first (like setting bombloads to "NULL"), lol.

Anyone else think that this makes sense?

The funny thing is that (as others have observed) the quality of escorts is so amazingly variable. I made a mission of the Midway CV force last night and every ship was set to veteran. The DDs were pathetic. I never ran silent, I rarely slowed down to 1/3 (all submerged). They didn't drop a single DC, though 1 DD pinged around. It was getting late and I couldn't catch up submerged so i surfaced the boat a few thousand yards from 2 DDs and a CV. Only then did I get attacked. I decied to duke it out with the deck gun (hehehe). I was sunk, of course, but I also took a DD with me---he wasn't listed as destroyed, but was furiously burning as the death-cam spun around. I think the DDs are a little too easy to take out with gun fire, frankly.

[castorp345]

I know squat about the sensor files, so no. As a mod noob, I was trying to stick to the ridiculously easy stuff first (like setting bombloads to "NULL"), lol.

Anyone else think that this makes sense?

'best way to learn is to dive on in and not be afraid of breaking stuff along the way... ;)

but could you please then point me to some source readings that indicate the sort of visual acuity on the part of the ijn forces that you're talking about?

many thanks!

[kakemann]

"realistic escorts" should be a difficulty option in this game. Passive escorts will certainly limit how much I play and enjoy the game.

Trout

I certainly agree!:up:

[SteamWake]

I just dont get it.

As soon as I loose the first salvo the escorts are on my ass like white on rice.

We playin the same game ?

[kakemann]

Probably, but I think the escort AI varies.

Sometimes they are really agressive. Sometimes they just stop up and act passive. Sometimes they just keep crusing. Sometimes they actually atacks.

I've experienced all of these things.
But SH3 was far more challenging considering the DD's AI.

[Ducimus]

In regards to AI detecting the player.

There really is no need to reinvent the wheel:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=111395

Also, feel free to blantantly take AI sensor tweaks from my mod and apply it to your own game if you want. If you don't like my tweaks, theres also a harder escort mod by NVDrifer i beleive. Check the mod listing sticky post in the mod forum for link.

edit:
as to AI behavior's such as coming to a dead stop after a torpedo attack or convoys slowing down the speed of the slowest ship is beyond the ability to fix by a mod. That can only be patched by Ubi.

[kakemann]

Yeah! I know Ducimus.

I have managed to change Sim.cfg so the escorts hear better, but thats not the problem.
I also changed all crew status to veteran in campaing files.

The problem is that sometimes when I have managed to sneak into a convoy or task force undetected and hit a ship, the DD's will not start searching or be alerted. They just stop, or keep cruising forward just as nothing has happened.

But sometimes they actually DO react and then they will be quite deadly. It's just weird when they act like this. I don't think it has anything to do with the DD's sensors. I think it is some kind of bug.


If I run into a single destroyer for instance he is always dangerous, but it varies quite a bit when I meet big convoys or task forces

Several users of this forum has mentioned this issue. So I guess it's a bug.

[Ducimus]

:hmm:

Any AI visual tweakage and what time of day, what was the weather, when surfacing in the convoy? edit( oh yea, what year? maybe radar came into play?)

[kakemann]

If you are asking me - i was not surfacing. I stayed underwater. It occurs once in a while in calm, and stormy weather.... I mean in any weathercondition

The only files I have changed myself is the hydrophone and sonar settings in sim.cfg and all of the campaign files.

Sometimes they act really clever.Sometimes they just seem really stupid!

[DirtyHarry3033]

Hmm, I think all the AI varies :damn: Just finished up a turkey shoot on a half-decent task force in Karimata Strait while en route to Surabaya (Manila just fell...) Dec 29, 1941, local time 03:38. Heavy seas.

Had 8 mk 14's left in the bow tubes, 4 loaded and 4 reloads. 56 feet of water under the keel at PD, nowhere to run, nowhere to hide! 2 Hiryu class CV's, 2 Furutaka class heavy cruisers, 2 Akitsu escort carriers. numerous DD's and light cruisers. several tankers and tenders.

Put 3 torps in the lead Hiryu and 1 in the 2nd Hiryu. Before the 2nd Hiryu was hit, the 1st was on the bottom and the cruisers were lighting up their searchlights but otherwise doing nothing. Meanwhile the whole task force slowed to 2 kts or so just like the convoys have done. Very shortly after, Hiryu #2 went under.

Put 3 torps into the closest Furutaka cruiser over the space of several minutes, sent her to the bottom...

All this time, not ONE of the Japs is doing anything more than flashing morse and sweeping spotlights around :(

Had 1 torp left, and a semi-tempting Akitsu CV crossing my bow. Let fly with the last torp, got a hit and some nice flames but she wouldn't go down. So I got crazy, surfaced and after much effort (heavy seas kept sending me back to command room...) was able to finish her off with about 4 rounds of HE from the deck gun.

And still, not a single escort was doing anything!!! I sank three carriers and a cruiser, and I think if I'd come up alongside the surviving IJN flagship and requested "Permission to come aboard sir!", they'd have piped me aboard with honors!

(SH3 made me work a lot harder...)

DH

[kakemann]

(SH3 made me work a lot harder...)

DH

Yeah I agree.

But... Do you have any mods installed?

[Ducimus]

well if your using stock visual settings, being frank, they suck. As i recall the surface factor is 400, and speed factor is 15. Which is VERY forgiving on the player.

For a quick tweak, change your visual surface factor to 150, and your visual speed factor to 8 and see if you notice any change. Might want to bump the light factor to 1.75 to 2, otherwise you might have a hard time at night :88)

As for super stupid vs super smart tin cans (assuming same crew rating, same scenario/enviormental variables), i haven no answer for that.

[kakemann]

Thanks Ducimus. I'll change these settings anyhow.

But i guess it's just the dumb destroyers which is causing my problems.
Since i haven't been surfacing when the stupid DD thing happened.

[DirtyHarry3033]

(SH3 made me work a lot harder...)

DH
Yeah I agree.

But... Do you have any mods installed?
A few mods. Very few, here's the list:

bs_silrun_all_menus
Captain Midnights CBS News Sound Mod
Dark Recognitionmanual
GREEN LOCK AND POSITION BUTTON
GreenLamp
LESS WATER LIMBER HOLES
ParaB's fewer radio contacts
Real Medals v1.01
REL_Flavored_to_taste_1H
Sky_Environment_Opt3
Submarine Bearing Tool (3000 Yards)

That's it!

DH

[kakemann]

Our issue is probably the same. It has been reported and confirmed in the SH4bugs site as well as in the patch 1.2 bug thread here at Subsim (number 23 here: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=112193&page=16)
Hope it will be fixed in the next patch :ping:

[NefariousKoel]

The Escorts and even the Convoy AI needs a big overhaul. I've only seen DCs dropped on me once and that was back near where I fired long before.. nowhere near.

I've also never heard active sonar pings nor seen searchlights. This all in the first year of the war.

I have screenshots of a destroyer passing directly over my submerged position twice in a row and not even pinging much less dropping DCs.

This is definitely not historical. From the onset, the subs were getting DC'd and prosecuted though perhaps not as efficiently as later.

I'm thinking there's something seriously wrong with the escort's detection abilities at the least, and possibly the AI.

[Ducimus]

FTT 1H? wow. Try FTT 2.3 - Numberous AI tweakages.

[kakemann]

FTT 1H? wow. Try FTT 2.3 - Numberous AI tweakages.

Sorry! Didn't get that! :oops:

[Ducimus]

Its not 100% perfected yet, but its close. I think the AI visual's need a bit of fine tuning, but it's at least in the ballpark. If you use nothing else from my modpack, just grab the sim.cfg, AI_sensors.dat, and unless your a masocist, the depthcharges.sim/zon as well. Stock depth charges with those AI settings is probably tantamount to murder.

[kakemann]

Hmmm...

Ducimus, using your own mod - have you never experienced what we discuss here?
That the DD's sometimes act like this?

[Ducimus]

Nothing that sticks out in my mind. Even in SH3 there was always that one persistant bastard who woudlnt give up.

Had one in april 43 manage to shell the snot out of my boat after i initiated a succesfull night surface attack on a liner, but he didnt zero me until after i changed my exit strategy. Orginally i went back standard, and backed out. At about 5000 yards i went to flank and pulled the boat around to high tail it out, and thats when he detected me. ( I kinda figured he would) Both he and his buddy gave chase. Torpedo'ed one with aft down the throat shot, the other for reasons unknown to me, decide he didnt see me anymore. I suspect that once that other tin can was torpedo'ed, the game went to some search algorythm.

[DirtyHarry3033]

FTT 1H? wow. Try FTT 2.3 - Numberous AI tweakages.
Yep, I need to. Just getting pulled in too many directions at once these days. I tend to forget what mod I need to be D/L'ing next :doh:

Too bad we don't get paid to play subsims, ya know? Earn $$$ for every mod installed... (course then it would be work and we'd hate it...)

DH

[sqk7744]

Too bad we don't get paid to play subsims, ya know? Earn $$$ for every mod installed... (course then it would be work and we'd hate it...) DH --Good point:up:

Great thread!

In v1.1 (100%) the escorts were pretty tame, even after sinking their entire convoy. Either they huddled together like the Destroyers of the Serengeti or they sailed away??? If you surfaced all hell broke loose, but at PD even getting or ramming a Destroy didn't provoke him. I used the "Harder escorts mod", and that helped a bit.

V1.2 (100%) also seems kinda wonky with the Escorts, either they are on you like bloodhounds or you get a free pass. :arrgh!:

Here's something to try.

PD running silent- fire a torp just across an escorts' bow and miss ( funny I'm good at this talent naturally :D but for others) try and miss with a higher/lower TDC speed setting. Now the torp goes streaking infront. Should get the whole group in ASW mode right? Nope, they act like nothing happend.

Or if you sink an Escort, the others keep on sailing happily along. -prob. thinking about their new parking space.

[FAdmiral]

I still believe if you NEVER hear any sonar pings or if the DDs just won't
look or go after you, your install of game or patch went bad (??) My first posts
in this thread were about my first install. After a week of playing like that
I finally uninstalled the game COMPLETELY (meaning the Registry too) and
reinstalled it. BIG DIFFERENCE !! I had a entirely new game now. Pings
were now heard and they looked and found me if I was not careful and
sometimes they did anyway. I just can't fully describe the huge difference
that made. I don't know what happened to the first install but I do know
now that is was NOT right....

JIM

[sqk7744]

I still believe if you NEVER hear any sonar pings or if the DDs just won't
look or go after you, your install of game or patch went bad (??) My first posts
in this thread were about my first install. After a week of playing like that
I finally uninstalled the game COMPLETELY (meaning the Registry too) and
reinstalled it. BIG DIFFERENCE !! I had a entirely new game now. Pings
were now heard and they looked and found me if I was not careful and
sometimes they did anyway. I just can't fully describe the huge difference
that made. I don't know what happened to the first install but I do know
now that is was NOT right....

JIM
---
Wow, weird. Will keep an eye-out while on my current patrol. (V1.2/100%) Thanks for the heads-up.

[Tarl]

I think the AI changes from mission to mission or from contact to contact. Just started a new career in 1944 (since I was retired after I got my Balao in 1943 in my previous career.)

....so wanted to start again in that sub. New base, new sub, green crew. Big difference. The first three (3) times I tried to accomplish my "mission" I was found by DD's and sunk each time. One time I was DC'd to the point it blew off my rudder and I could not steer the boat. Another time I surfaced to engage what appeared to be a lone ship close to shore, got hammered from two (2) sides by beach artillery and next thing u know my sub is getting full of holes from a DD coming around the small peninsula. Also earlier in the war I was "sneaking" into harbors and sinking ships....last time I tried it started getting pinged and three (3) destroyers converged on me....only 10 feet under keel, so nowhere to run, nowhere to hide, again got sunk.

Also the DD's are smart little cookies. I'll be lining one up, he's motionless, flashing his signal light, everything is lined up, ready to go, meet your maker, Fire 1, Fire 2..torps enrt, the little devil cranks up his screws and moves avoiding the torps....I've had more than a few missed shots in those situations.

...so while alot of u are "complaining" about AI, seems I've had my share of smart ones. :)

[Tiwaz]

Well, my experience has been that DD are effective if you are on surface. But when you dive, you are about as good as invisible.

In both of my convoy attacks (1.2, no mods) DD were only threat when I was on surface and clearly visible to them. Though there was still some difference in performance.

In first attack, took place on broad daylight, they would get pretty lost when I did few torpedo runs and failed to charge me when I revealed myself for short while (some cannon fire coming my way but no change in course) but on other case they immediately rushed towards me firing their guns.

[TheSatyr]

I can see a DD/DE dropping to 5 knots or so after a torp attack to listen on hydrophones while also using it's active sonar...but coming to a dead stop would have been nuts...even for the Japanese at the time.

[DirtyHarry3033]

I still believe if you NEVER hear any sonar pings or if the DDs just won't
look or go after you, your install of game or patch went bad (??) My first posts
in this thread were about my first install. After a week of playing like that
I finally uninstalled the game COMPLETELY (meaning the Registry too) and
reinstalled it. BIG DIFFERENCE !! I had a entirely new game now. Pings
were now heard and they looked and found me if I was not careful and
sometimes they did anyway. I just can't fully describe the huge difference
that made. I don't know what happened to the first install but I do know
now that is was NOT right....

JIM
Nope, that's not it in my case. With both 1.1 and 1.2, about 1 out of every 4 or 5 attacks the escorts will act like escorts, pinging, dropping DC's and otherwise making life hell. But for the most part they're incompetent and sit around with their thumbs firmly corked up their backsides :rotfl:

DH

[kakemann]

Nope, that's not it in my case. With both 1.1 and 1.2, about 1 out of every 4 or 5 attacks the escorts will act like escorts, pinging, dropping DC's and otherwise making life hell. But for the most part they're incompetent and sit around with their thumbs firmly corked up their backsides :rotfl:

DH
Yeah. It's not that the destroyers always act like they don't hear anything. But sometimes it seems like the crew just went to sleep or have been drinking.

I've had some luck changing some settings in the datafiles, so the destroyers are far more agressive now.

However -sometimes they just won't react or they play silly - this seems to be some kind of hard coded bug.

If someone experience that the destroyers NEVER ping and they never react even if you make a lot of noise they might want to try this mod::

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=113134

[jerryt]

I've noticed that a few times I have been picked up on my approach to the convoy, the escorts get very aggresive, but if I manage to attack, they suddenly go into the park and wait mode.

I actually left a convoy last night because it was just to un-sporting. :rotfl:

[Kongo Otto]

I didn't give SH3 much of a chance because I hated playing as the Nazi's.

Yeah everybody in the Kriegsmarine was a Nazi.
Who told you this?
Films like U-571?

[-Pv-]

I'm seeing some people report aggressive escorts and many reporting laconic DDs.

I've seen both so far playing between 41 and 42 on my second patrol. I have found the China Sea heavily populated and aggressively patrolled.

What I would expect out of the history, theater, and time period that low value convoys would be poorly protected early in the war and large tankers or task forces would be more aggressively protected and more so as the war progressed.

This would all be modified by:
Quality of the convoy commander
Quality of the escort crews
Lighting and sea conditions
Stealth skill of the sub commander

Submarines while end-on to escorts at night were very hard to spot by escorts and even harder to judge the distance since they didn't have radar range finders. It would be hard to tell if the sub was coming or going at low speed.
It would take several ranging shots to find out.

More than one US sub commander in the real war were very effective at picking ships off while surfaced inside the convoy so this is historically correct. The confusion, destruction, plethora of props in the water and lack of torpedo wakes would confuse the enemy.

-Pv-

[tater]

I didn't give SH3 much of a chance because I hated playing as the Nazi's.

Yeah everybody in the Kriegsmarine was a Nazi.
Who told you this?
Films like U-571?

No, he should believe the standard German movie formula like das boot. Demonstrate again and again that the protagonists hated the regime and were just doing their jobs... you know, like 99% of the French were in the resistance ;)
Bottom line is that while there may be stereotypes in US movies, there are equal stereotypes in German movies.

I didn't buy SH3 for the same reason, I had no desire to roleplay a nazi sub. <--note I didn't say the crew were all nazis, but the sub belonged to, and did the bidding of them. Had zero appeal to me (I have Il-2, and many other ww2 flight sims, and I've never flown a german plane in those, either (actually, not quite true, I have flown finnish 109s)).

I certainly would have bought SH3 had there been even a single class of DD or DE to play on convoy escort duty.

[NefariousKoel]

I posted an updated Kakemann's Improved Escorts mod in the Mod forum.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=113232

His sonar mod definitely helped my lazy escorts go after me. He sent me the rest of his crew experience mods for the escorts so I made an updated JSGME ready file for it.

Good Hunting!

[Ducimus]

:hmm: S'cuse me while i scamper off to go make a bag of popcorn to enjoy the show. This thread is about to get very entertaining. :rotfl:

[tater]

Yeah, I almost didn't reply. But the notion that there is any less bias or agenda in one set of movies, etc than another is pretty silly.

As is the notion that only a vanishingly small handful of people should be held to a standard of personal resonsibility. The lesson to be learned from history is not that a tiny fraction of people did evil, but that a large fraction of people did nothing at all to stop it.

Feel free to flame away, I won't be changing my mind on that one :D

[oritpro]

I posted an updated Kakemann's Improved Escorts mod in the Mod forum.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=113232

His sonar mod definitely helped my lazy escorts go after me. He sent me the rest of his crew experience mods for the escorts so I made an updated JSGME ready file for it.

Good Hunting!

Yep, that mod definitely does the trick. :up:

[sqk7744]

" What, Now I have to put down the sandwich?!


Great MOD :up::up::up:

[kakemann]

" What, Now I have to put down the sandwich?!


Great MOD :up::up::up:

*lol* Yeah no more eating and playing.

[bruschi sauro]

Been playing SH4 ~22 hrs and just had a comment...

May 1942...I was patroling in the Java Sea in the USS Shark(horribly shallow) and ran across a convoy in box formation...2 large tankers leading the "box" and 3 destroyers on escort duty. The destroyers were arranged ahead, port, & starboard of the box at ~1500 yd seperation each.

To make a long story short, one taker took 3 torps to starboard and the other tanker, 2. Neither one was sinking and I was out of torps.

Escort problem 1: All the time I was pumping torps into these tankers, all the escorts did was shine their spotlights across the water in my direction.

Aggrivated, and wanting to test the SH4 AI somewhat, I decided to surface in between the 2 tankers and open up with the deck gun. Not being entirely reckless, I knew that each tanker would shield the sub from the destroyers to port & starboard...but the one ahead of the convoy would have a clear shot at me.

Once I hit the surface and fired the 1st shot, shotlights and starshells exploded all around. 7 shots later the first tanker was down and not a single shot had been fired at my sub. The destroyer forward, had come around and was making flank speed at me...range ~1,200 yds. I fired 9 shells into the 2nd tanker and she exploded. About this time the destroyer had closed to ~800 yards and it's first shot landed hopelessly beyond the sub. I ordered flank speed, full right rudder, and crashed dive to 120ft. Once on the bottom, I went to silent running and crept away from the clueless destroyers.

Escort Problem 2: I don't want to jump on the "Well SHIII w/ GWX did it this way and SH4 sucks...." bandwagon, becuase I like SH4 alot. That being said, if I had tried to do the antics above in real life or in SHIII I'm 95% certain I would be dead, dead, dead, dead...

Anyone else notice these passive escorts?
I have attacked a convoy...
I have torpedoed one maru...:smug:
I have heavy damaged from deep charge...:damn:
I must surfaced in THE MIDDLE OF CONVOY IN DAYLIGHT....:damn:
and ...:huh: surprise the escort ignore me.....:rotfl:

[FAdmiral]

Been playing SH4 ~22 hrs and just had a comment...

May 1942...I was patroling in the Java Sea in the USS Shark(horribly shallow) and ran across a convoy in box formation...2 large tankers leading the "box" and 3 destroyers on escort duty. The destroyers were arranged ahead, port, & starboard of the box at ~1500 yd seperation each.

To make a long story short, one taker took 3 torps to starboard and the other tanker, 2. Neither one was sinking and I was out of torps.

Escort problem 1: All the time I was pumping torps into these tankers, all the escorts did was shine their spotlights across the water in my direction.

Aggrivated, and wanting to test the SH4 AI somewhat, I decided to surface in between the 2 tankers and open up with the deck gun. Not being entirely reckless, I knew that each tanker would shield the sub from the destroyers to port & starboard...but the one ahead of the convoy would have a clear shot at me.

Once I hit the surface and fired the 1st shot, shotlights and starshells exploded all around. 7 shots later the first tanker was down and not a single shot had been fired at my sub. The destroyer forward, had come around and was making flank speed at me...range ~1,200 yds. I fired 9 shells into the 2nd tanker and she exploded. About this time the destroyer had closed to ~800 yards and it's first shot landed hopelessly beyond the sub. I ordered flank speed, full right rudder, and crashed dive to 120ft. Once on the bottom, I went to silent running and crept away from the clueless destroyers.

Escort Problem 2: I don't want to jump on the "Well SHIII w/ GWX did it this way and SH4 sucks...." bandwagon, becuase I like SH4 alot. That being said, if I had tried to do the antics above in real life or in SHIII I'm 95% certain I would be dead, dead, dead, dead...

Anyone else notice these passive escorts?
I have attacked a convoy...
I have torpedoed one maru...:smug:
I have heavy damaged from deep charge...:damn:
I must surfaced in THE MIDDLE OF CONVOY IN DAYLIGHT....:damn:
and ...:huh: surprise the escort ignore me.....:rotfl:

OK, deceided to make a mission to test this on my SH4 game.
April 15, 1942-Midnight, no wind & calm sea, clear night.
4 Merchants in box formation with 4 small DD escorts (2 on vet &
2 on compt.) Approached from south at 90 degrees, 5 min, later
DDs opened up and 2 rushed over blasting away. Was hit several times
before crash dived to 200 ft.,under TL with silent running. My damage to
2 bulkheads & batteries was repaired very quick with no dam cont team
engaged. A third DD came over to join the other 2, the last stayed with
convoy. They all DCed the sea numerous times but not on me....
2nd try: Moved my sub into the center of the convoy submerged.
Mission starts, I surface. DDs speed up to get clear shots at me. I start
getting hit as soon as they do. Blasted out of the water in less than 8 minutes.
Conclusion: My SH4 game is working great, what's wrong with yours?

JIM

[tater]

Like I said, I think they are fine until the sea state is rough

[FAdmiral]

Ok, same exact mission but with rough seas and thunder, moderate whitecaps.
Surfaced, took the DDs slightly longer to get me in their searchlights but when
they did, I was fired on almost immediately. DDs moved to get into better
position to attack. Only when I got too close to the merchant did they stop firing.
I turned away from the merchant and I started getting hit again. As I swung
around away from the merchant, a DD came in and rammed me. The ONLY thing I saw go wrong during this whole mission was that after ramming me, the DD broke
in half and blew up (that was NOT right) and I was damaged BUT not sinking....

JIM

[kakemann]

I've mad changes to my mod which solves some of the issues about the lazy destroyers. Click my signature to get to the new thread.