[REL] Realistic Sensors (obsolete)

[nvdrifter]

New thread here:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=108688

**Re-Released**

More Realistic Sensors v1.0 for SH4 v1.1 (based on GWX's excellent sensor settings)

Mod created by nvdrifter
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This mod makes AI sensors and detections in SH4 much more realistic (in my opinion). It also makes enemy AI much more dangerous because you can be detected much more easily now than in vanilla SH4. I based most of the settings in this mod on the latest version of GWX's sensor settings. I give most of the credit for this mod to the excellent GWX developement team who extensively playetested these settings. To get a more detailed description of what this mod affects, please see the latest GWX manual.

To install, place each file into the correct corresponding folder. Always be sure to back up your files before overwriting.

I make no claims that this mod is superior or the best. But in my opinion, vanilla SH4 AI sensors just aren't sensitive enough, and the result is enemy escorts are too easy to evade. They are practically blind. Hopefully this mod will correct some of these shortcomings.

Download here: http://hosted.filefront.com/aragorn155/

[CCIP]

Awesome!

Did you use Mini Tweaker or something else?

Great work - though I'm highly tempted to transfer NYGM sensors this way now, too :p

[nvdrifter]

Awesome!

Did you use Mini Tweaker or something else?

Great work - though I'm highly tempted to transfer NYGM sensors this way now, too :p
Yeah, I used Mini Tweaker. But I had to make new tweak files because the old ones wouldn't work. :doh: Right now I am making a deadlier enemy aircraft mod. Should be finished soon.

[Ducimus]

Awesome!

Did you use Mini Tweaker or something else?

Great work - though I'm highly tempted to transfer NYGM sensors this way now, too :p

I don't have the files in front of me, but umm two points id like to mention here guys:


1.) If theres a sim.cfg with similar settigns as in SH3, you probably woudlnt have to touch the AI_sensors.dat (if file of same name exists) at all. The AI_sensors.dat deals primarly with geometry. The guts, meat and potato's of how uber or dumb the AI is, is in the sim.cfg.



2.)As for making the NYGM version to work... Essshhh.. youd have to have EXACT same AI_sensor nodes available with the exact same geometry, and have them asssigned to ships in the exact same way for that to work. I highly doubt the NYGM AI_sensor.dat would work. but again, i dont have the files infront of me.

[nvdrifter]

Awesome!

Did you use Mini Tweaker or something else?

Great work - though I'm highly tempted to transfer NYGM sensors this way now, too :p
I don't have the files in front of me, but umm two points id like to mention here guys:


1.) If theres a sim.cfg with similar settigns as in SH3, you probably woudlnt have to touch the AI_sensors.dat (if file of same name exists) at all. The AI_sensors.dat deals primarly with geometry. The guts, meat and potato's of how uber or dumb the AI is, is in the sim.cfg.



2.)As for making the NYGM version to work... Essshhh.. youd have to have EXACT same AI_sensor nodes available with the exact same geometry, and have them asssigned to ships in the exact same way for that to work. I highly doubt the NYGM AI_sensor.dat would work. but again, i dont have the files infront of me.

Yeah, I understand this. That is why I changed both files you mentioned to be close to GWX's settings. I did some playtesting and the AI seems much 'smarter' now and more challenging with it's sensors.

[CCIP]

I am aware of the new visual nodes on NYGM. Frankly though, I haven't been particularly bothered by the visual settings in SHIV as much as the underwater detection.

Well, I think GWXs solution is fine too! Perhaps even better for Japanese AI (a bit less tenacious in sticking to a contact, which they do in NYGM) :hmm:

[StandingCow]

Quick question.. what year were you playing when you decided that the sensors weren't good enough for AI?

I remember reading in the main forum that ASW was terrible for the japs early on.

[nvdrifter]

Quick question.. what year were you playing when you decided that the sensors weren't good enough for AI?

I remember reading in the main forum that ASW was terrible for the japs early on.

I have played different years. The crew quality rating of each unit affects sensor performance, so the year shouldn't be an issue.

[Crosseye76]

This mod makes AI sensors and detections in SH4 much more realistic.




Compared to what? Japanese Escorts did not have anything like the electronic fit of a British or American Escort or DE. The Millimeter wave radar common to Late war allied ships had no comparison in the IJN. And that's even if the IJN ship had radar. Most of the sets seem to have gone to Fleet ships, not poor sub hunter escorts. The Sonar equipment seems about the same. the IJN started the war with good (for the time) sets, but did not seem to be able to really improve on it much as the war went on. So, other than visual, a Mid or late war IJN escort will not have anything like the sensor performance of a British or American escort.

It's a different war, a different enemy, with different equipment. I'm a bit worried that using the GWX values will try and make SH4 more like "Wolves of the Atlantic" than "Wolves of the Pacific".

[nvdrifter]

This mod makes AI sensors and detections in SH4 much more realistic.



Compared to what? Japanese Escorts did not have anything like the electronic fit of a British or American Escort or DE. The Millimeter wave radar common to Late war allied ships had no comparison in the IJN. And that's even if the IJN ship had radar. Most of the sets seem to have gone to Fleet ships, not poor sub hunter escorts. The Sonar equipment seems about the same. the IJN started the war with good (for the time) sets, but did not seem to be able to really improve on it much as the war went on. So, other than visual, a Mid or late war IJN escort will not have anything like the sensor performance of a British or American escort.

It's a different war, a different enemy, with different equipment. I'm a bit worried that using the GWX values will try and make SH4 more like "Wolves of the Atlantic" than "Wolves of the Pacific".
Ok, constructive opinions about mods are alright. But everyone here needs to remember 2 things. First, we modders are volunteering our time to try and improve SH4. Second, no one is forcing you to install or use any mod. Please keep this in mind before criticizing. :roll:

Now, if some players feel that the enemy sensors are too good, thne maybe a second version can be released later. But who is to say that GWX sensors were realistic enough for German escorts compared to real life? There is no way to prove this. Again, no one is forcing you to use any mod. If anyone here complaining thinks they can do a better job at modding, then be my guest.

I will stop modding altogether if unappreciative people start bashing my mods. :shifty:

[Crosseye76]

Nvdrifter, I did not intend in any way to bash your efforts, or the efforts of any of the modders whos work we all enjoy.


It was more to voice my concern and perhaps, to suggest that the GWX sensor values might not be more realistic than the sensor values already in the game, that's all.

I want SH3 and SH4 to be the best, most realistic Subsims out there, bar none. and if changes are needed, than I'm all for them. I'm just wanting to clarify if changes are needed in this area.

And again, my sincere apology if you feel I've over stepped my bounds.

[StandingCow]

Yea, I would never want to bash a modders work, we really appreciate it, my concern was that stated in the above post. Is it really more realistic? The japs did not have nearly the ASW ability as the allies.

[nvdrifter]

Nvdrifter, I did not intend in any way to bash your efforts, or the efforts of any of the modders whos work we all enjoy.


It was more to voice my concern and perhaps, to suggest that the GWX sensor values might not be more realistic than the sensor values already in the game, that's all.

I want SH3 and SH4 to be the best, most realistic Subsims out there, bar none. and if changes are needed, than I'm all for them. I'm just wanting to clarify if changes are needed in this area.

And again, my sincere apology if you feel I've over stepped my bounds.
No problem. ;) Maybe I just misunderstood. I do understand your concerns. If players feel that the Japanese AI is too good in this mod, then maybe I can release another version later. I personally felt that the stock AI are pathetically easy in any year. I have read a great book about the US submarine war against Japan called Silent Victory, and according to the very knowledgable author, Japanese escorts hunting US subs were deadly as early as the beginning of 1942. That's something to consider. :hmm:

[sergbuto]

I do not think that people are bashing the mod. What they react to is the claim that sensors are now more REALISTIC that in vanilla. If the mod was called something like "tougher escorts", it would not get the remarks above.

[nvdrifter]

In my opinion the AI sensors just aren't effective enough in vanilla SH4. It's just way, way too easy to lose escorts in any year. But of course that's just my opinion.

I have decided to remove this mod because it is already causing some controversy and criticism due to the title and other things. And I don't want to deal with any of that right now. I am too focused on trying to fix other problems in SH4.

[sergbuto]

Why not just rename or add something to the title of the mod to make it clearer for people. I guess many players would want deadlier escorts.

[Immacolata]

Yes, what sergbuto says. Don't be all sore skinned and withdraw stuff at the slightest hint of criticism. Who cares? They are perfectly welcome to not download and use it, I'd very much like tougher escorts. Ta very much. Please.

[nvdrifter]

Yes, what sergbuto says. Don't be all sore skinned and withdraw stuff at the slightest hint of criticism. Who cares? They are perfectly welcome to not download and use it, I'd very much like tougher escorts. Ta very much. Please.

Maybe I'll rename it and do a repost.

[StandingCow]

Hope I wasn't the cause of this.. my "critisim" was more of a question.. I don't know much about WW2 and ASW in the atlantic, I only knew what I read here. :oops:

[CCIP]

Well I think this is both a realism and a balancing issue. With the default sensors, especially early on, I found that the escorts aren't so much incompetent as just impotent. Set your speed to slow and silent running, and you're never going to be detected. This gives a very exploitable advantage to the player, and I don't think it reflects all the nuances of reality. GWX does a far better job of making a player more susceptible to errors, that's all there's to it really.

[CCIP]

Wait, nooo! I didn't get a chance to get the file!

:cry:

I wish you'd left it. It'd give other people a better ground to work off.
I also can't believe people wouldn't consider something produced from GWX to be at least reputable.

Again, I emphasize: SHIV sensors do need a mod!
The default is fine for beginning players who might not know all the ins and outs; for experienced players, it's not going to work out very well. I'm personally from the school of thought that realism should assume realistic cause-and-effect relations.

I imagine that SHIV escorts are more or less akin to SHIII escorts between 1939-1941. Ask yourself how you would fare against enemy ASW in GWX with a boat of lesser diving depth in 1939-1941, and I think you'll have a pretty good idea. Then ask yourself how well this corresponds to the 18% of submarines and approximately 1 in 5 submarinecrew lost by US forces during world war II. I think for an experienced player, GWX-style sensors will do a pretty good approximation of that.

[Kumando]

I didint play Sh4 yet so i cant say how the Ai is but from what i have read the Japanese ASW was nowhere near the allied one, so with that in mind we cant make the SH4 AI to difficult.

[LukeFF]

To be honest, I think it's way too early to be modifying the game's internal mechanics such as the sensor values. Let's let the devs patch/update the game before we start monkeying around too much with stuff like this.

[CCIP]

Grah, thank you guys who made nvdrifter take off the mod :down::down::down:

I've been playing more and I absolutely NEED a mod like this. I know Japanese ASW is considered inferior to allied ASW - but this is ridiculous! I have NEVER been detected by anything while submerged. My last straw was sinking a Takao cruiser, leisurely reloading my torpedoes, coming back up, and sinking another Takao cruiser while the 6 escorting destroyers searched for me to no avail.

This is what happens when unwarranted whining interferes with modding.

PLEASE release this again. I can't play a game where I can do whatever I feel like without opposition.

[Deep Six]

I have to agree with CCIP I have just done a single mission and I had Japanese destroyers practically running over me DOING nothing......Shesh I even had my scope up.....It's like there totally BLIND..Yeah i know that the Japanese were always 2 steps behind with ASW technology, but this is ridiculous.

So in the mission that i was in.....I had to surface before any of the destroyers actually started hurling shells at me...

On a better note, i have just started my career and upon leaving Manilla i was almost bombed outta the water using The more lethal plane mod....I Love how the whole boat gets knocked about sideways.....The damage control took some figuring out....I'm not sure though ..Does an item/comtrol in red mean that it's wasted?
If it does then i have lost both pumps....I better not dive....Yikes....

Deep Six

[nvdrifter]

I will re-release it again as soon as I update the files to the SH4 v1.1 patch. ;)

**edit** ugh, first I have to redo one of my AI tweak files again to edit. :damn: Might take a few minutes...

[nvdrifter]

I have to agree with CCIP I have just done a single mission and I had Japanese destroyers practically running over me DOING nothing......Shesh I even had my scope up.....It's like there totally BLIND..Yeah i know that the Japanese were always 2 steps behind with ASW technology, but this is ridiculous.

So in the mission that i was in.....I had to surface before any of the destroyers actually started hurling shells at me...

On a better note, i have just started my career and upon leaving Manilla i was almost bombed outta the water using The more lethal plane mod....I Love how the whole boat gets knocked about sideways.....The damage control took some figuring out....I'm not sure though ..Does an item/comtrol in red mean that it's wasted?
If it does then i have lost both pumps....I better not dive....Yikes....

Deep Six
Deep Six, you are right. Vanilla SH4 escort AI is totally innefective. I have played with this sensor mod and it makes a big difference, but it is still possible to lose the enemy escorts ... just not too easily. This mod doesn't turn escorts into Terminator robot killing machines.

[CCIP]

Hey nvdrifter, being impatient, I actually partially built a tweak file myself and adjusted some of these values. I'll wait for yours though - if it's helpful, here's the sensors I got as a tweak...



[1]
DropDownName=AI_Radar
absolute,single,133,MinRange
absolute,single,144,MaxRange
absolute,single,156,MinHeight
absolute,single,168,MaxHeight
absolute,single,17A,MinBearing
absolute,single,18E,MaxBearing
absolute,single,1A2,MinElevation
absolute,single,1B8,MaxElevation
absolute,single,1CA,MinSurface
absolute,single,1DF,Sensitivity

[2]
DropDownName=AI_Visual
absolute,single,2C0,MinRange
absolute,single,2D1,MaxRange
absolute,single,2E3,MinHeight
absolute,single,2F5,MaxHeight
absolute,single,308,MinBearing
absolute,single,31B,MaxBearing
absolute,single,330,MinElevation
absolute,single,345,MaxElevation
absolute,single,358,MinSurface
search,Sensitivity,2,single,>2,Sensitivity

[3]
DropDownName=AI_Hydrophone
absolute,single,451,MinRange
absolute,single,462,MaxRange
absolute,single,474,MinHeight
absolute,single,486,MaxHeight
absolute,single,499,MinBearing
absolute,single,4AC,MaxBearing
absolute,single,4C1,MinElevation
absolute,single,4D6,MaxElevation
absolute,single,4E9,MinSurface
search,Sensitivity,3,single,>2,Sensitivity

[4]
DropDownName=AI_Sonar
absolute,single,5DD,MinRange
absolute,single,5EE,MaxRange
absolute,single,600,MinHeight
absolute,single,612,MaxHeight
absolute,single,625,MinBearing
absolute,single,638,MaxBearing
absolute,single,64D,MinElevation
absolute,single,662,MaxElevation
absolute,single,675,MinSurface
search,Sensitivity,4,single,>2,Sensitivity

They might be incomplete, it's the first time I tried building a tweak

[nvdrifter]

Hey nvdrifter, being impatient, I actually partially built a tweak file myself and adjusted some of these values. I'll wait for yours though - if it's helpful, here's the sensors I got as a tweak...



[1]
DropDownName=AI_Radar
absolute,single,133,MinRange
absolute,single,144,MaxRange
absolute,single,156,MinHeight
absolute,single,168,MaxHeight
absolute,single,17A,MinBearing
absolute,single,18E,MaxBearing
absolute,single,1A2,MinElevation
absolute,single,1B8,MaxElevation
absolute,single,1CA,MinSurface
absolute,single,1DF,Sensitivity

[2]
DropDownName=AI_Visual
absolute,single,2C0,MinRange
absolute,single,2D1,MaxRange
absolute,single,2E3,MinHeight
absolute,single,2F5,MaxHeight
absolute,single,308,MinBearing
absolute,single,31B,MaxBearing
absolute,single,330,MinElevation
absolute,single,345,MaxElevation
absolute,single,358,MinSurface
search,Sensitivity,2,single,>2,Sensitivity

[3]
DropDownName=AI_Hydrophone
absolute,single,451,MinRange
absolute,single,462,MaxRange
absolute,single,474,MinHeight
absolute,single,486,MaxHeight
absolute,single,499,MinBearing
absolute,single,4AC,MaxBearing
absolute,single,4C1,MinElevation
absolute,single,4D6,MaxElevation
absolute,single,4E9,MinSurface
search,Sensitivity,3,single,>2,Sensitivity

[4]
DropDownName=AI_Sonar
absolute,single,5DD,MinRange
absolute,single,5EE,MaxRange
absolute,single,600,MinHeight
absolute,single,612,MaxHeight
absolute,single,625,MinBearing
absolute,single,638,MaxBearing
absolute,single,64D,MinElevation
absolute,single,662,MaxElevation
absolute,single,675,MinSurface
search,Sensitivity,4,single,>2,Sensitivity
They might be incomplete, it's the first time I tried building a tweak
Thanks for posting that. Unfortunately, these numbers are the same as my old tweak file for v1.0 of SH4. But V1.1 changed the AI_sensors.dat file, so I have to go back, check and change each absolute number with a hex editor. I'm already on AI Visual sensor settings now.

[CCIP]

Okay, good luck!

..strange, I was editing v1.1 with this :hmm:

[nvdrifter]

Okay, good luck!

..strange, I was editing v1.1 with this :hmm:

Are you sure that you weren't editing the SH4 v1.0 AI_Sensors.dat located in your SH3 folder? :p

[CCIP]

...I hope not!

Anyway, carry on. I just got killed by some DDs in v1.1, maybe that's an indication of something I didn't do wrong :p

[nvdrifter]

And another thing, can someone please upload the unmodded v1.1 AI_Sensors.dat file to Filefront so I can download it? I accidentally overwrote it with no backup. :damn::damn::damn:

[CCIP]

...I forgot to back up mine, too.

I can give you the one with my supposed changes if that's fine (I only edited the same values you would have, to conform with GWX settings). It IS from 1.1...

[CCIP]

Nevermind, found my backup! Check your Private Messages...

[nvdrifter]

**Re-Released**

More Realistic Sensors v1.0 for SH4 v1.1 (based on GWX's excellent sensor settings)

Mod created by nvdrifter
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This mod makes AI sensors and detections in SH4 much more realistic (in my opinion). It also makes enemy AI much more dangerous because you can be detected much more easily now than in vanilla SH4. I based most of the settings in this mod on the latest version of GWX's sensor settings. I give most of the credit for this mod to the excellent GWX developement team who extensively playetested these settings. To get a more detailed description of what this mod affects, please see the latest GWX manual.

To install, place each file into the correct corresponding folder. Always be sure to back up your files before overwriting.

I make no claims that this mod is superior or the best. But in my opinion, vanilla SH4 AI sensors just aren't sensitive enough, and the result is enemy escorts are too easy to evade. They are practically blind. Hopefully this mod will correct some of these shortcomings.

Download here: http://hosted.filefront.com/aragorn155/

[CCIP]

:up:

I think the default escorts may be fine for a beginning player who might not know the nuisances of evasion since SHIII - but for me it's a big factor. I think experienced players absolutely need this.

[nvdrifter]

:up:

I think the default escorts may be fine for a beginning player who might not know the nuisances of evasion since SHIII - but for me it's a big factor. I think experienced players absolutely need this.

Yeah, the default AI is just about blind. But for a beginner player, it's probably a good thing.

And by the way, you were right. I mixed up my SH3 and SH4 AI_Sensor.dat file. I didn't have to change the tweak file afterall. I feel so dumb. :rotfl:

[Crosseye76]

Very cool. I look forward to a challenge from the escorts. :up:

[castorp345]

This mod makes AI sensors and detections in SH4 much more realistic (in my opinion). It also makes enemy AI much more dangerous because you can be detected much more easily now than in vanilla SH4. I based most of the settings in this mod on the latest version of GWX's sensor settings. I give most of the credit for this mod to the excellent GWX developement team who extensively playetested these settings. To get a more detailed description of what this mod affects, please see the latest GWX manual.
as has been pointed out, fudging the sensors values so that detection occurs more readily does emphatically not make things more "realistic"...
this is not bash, and i'm certainly not saying that vanilla has it right, but i think what's really needed here by some enterprising modder (imho) is well-substantiated historic data for this paticular theatre, doctrine, vessels, and systems to correlate the sim values to. GWX's data is (i believe) specific to Allied antisub warfare against the U-Boats, and I for one don't find much merit in just simply playing out the Atlantic with visual models from the Pacific...

[nvdrifter]

This mod makes AI sensors and detections in SH4 much more realistic (in my opinion). It also makes enemy AI much more dangerous because you can be detected much more easily now than in vanilla SH4. I based most of the settings in this mod on the latest version of GWX's sensor settings. I give most of the credit for this mod to the excellent GWX developement team who extensively playetested these settings. To get a more detailed description of what this mod affects, please see the latest GWX manual.
as has been pointed out, fudging the sensors values so that detection occurs more readily does emphatically not make things more "realistic"...
this is not bash, and i'm certainly not saying that vanilla has it right, but i think what's really needed here by some enterprising modder (imho) is well-substantiated historic data for this paticular theatre, doctrine, vessels, and systems to correlate the sim values to. GWX's data is (i believe) specific to Allied antisub warfare against the U-Boats, and I for one don't find much merit in just simply playing out the Atlantic with visual models from the Pacific...
*sigh* It's obvious some non-modders are posting criticisms in this forum that don't understand much about modding SH3 or SH4. Some people post far out, grand ideas or criticisms about mods that are totally unrealistic because they don't understand about modding SH3 or SH4. They don't understand what is possible and what isn't. I am not claiming to be a modding expert, but I have done quite a bit of modding on SH3. Let me say this in two simple, clear sentences. First, we cannot access the hard-coded AI files, therefore 'fudging' the AI sensors is the next best thing. Second, no detection equipment or specific system settings were changed in this mod. I do believe this mod is more realistic than vanilla SH4 sensors, but I never said it was the most realistic. It's easy to criticize modders who volunteer their time and modding skills. Modders who later share their mods with the community for free. If anyone here wants to complain that a mod isn't realistic or whatever, please don't download it and make a better one yourselves.

I am not mad at anyone here, but this for sure will be the last version of this mod released because I am tired of the criticizing. I didn't say 'bashing'... I said criticizing. Hopefully someone else can release a better sensors mod later.

[Barkhorn1x]

**Re-Released**

More Realistic Sensors v1.0 for SH4 (based on GWX's excellent sensor settings)

Mod created by nvdrifter


You da man!!! :rock:

[castorp345]

*sigh* It's obvious some non-modders are posting criticisms in this forum that don't understand much about modding SH3 or SH4.
*sigh*
i've been "modding" since aotd days, my friend, but in recent years have been turning my attentions to other 'spheres' (some of which work is being used in professional publications)... [see my colleague's blog for examples of my "modding" work==> http://djvader.blogspot.com/ ]
...so i'd respectfully suggest that you can stow the attitude.

:|\\


Some people post far out, grand ideas or criticisms about mods that are totally unrealistic because they don't understand about modding SH3 or SH4. They don't understand what is possible and what isn't.
computationally accurate sensor ranges/values are "unrealistic"?
:roll:


I am not claiming to be a modding expert, but I have done quite a bit of modding on SH3. Let me say this in two simple, clear sentences. First, we cannot access the hard-coded AI files, therefore this is the next best thing. Second, no detection equipment or specific system settings were changed in this mod.
and who said anything about manipulating the ai files? (i suppose i might have implied it by mentioning "doctrine"... if i recall correctly though, "doctrine" has been massaged in sh3 by the likes of gwx and nygm via the .rnd files)...
but this is actually a rather 'old' argument (i remember much heated debate in the days of sh2 over this issue), to wit that in order to effectively acheive a more aggressive 'ai' the sensor ranges could be 'porked' to yield greater probabilty of detection, thus assisting the ai (essentially via allowing it it cheat) and thus force the player to exercise more shall-we-say prudence...

'seemed silly to me then, 'seems silly to me now.


I do believe this mod is more realistic than vanilla SH4 sensors, but I never said it was the most realistic.
indeed...
and what exactly justifies your claim that it is "more realistic than vanilla SH4 sensors"? i'm really not trying to needle you here, but rather am quite interested in your claim to historical accuracy and would be intrigued to discover the rigorous (scientific if you will) basis upon which you've been able to make those sorts of determinations...
i guess all that my criticisms were after is some sort of evidence that your mod does in fact offer something more historically accurate than vanilla. but just because you "feel" it to be so, i'm afraid, is a rather bogus non sequitur.

It's easy to criticize modders who volunteer their time and modding skills. Modders who later share their mods with the community for free. If people complain that a mod isn't realistic or whatever, please don't download it and make a better one yourselves
quite so.
and i might respond that, instead of getting your knickers all in a knot, "if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen". i think we all want the same thing--a great and fun sim--but that means different things i suppose to different people.

look, all i'm saying is that if you're going to make claims to 'greater realism' then you'd do well to be able to support them.

have a nice day.

:know:

hc

[CCIP]

I will say this - computational realism means little when the results are all wrong. And they are - enemy ASW shouldn't be deaf to a submarine leisurely doing its thing in front of their noses, however good their sensor may look 'on paper'. The key point is that, as historically, a submarine should be threatened by enemy attack, and the level of potential losses should also be appropriate to the 18% casualty rate taken by the submarine service over the course of the war.

[castorp345]

the level of potential losses should also be appropriate to the 18% casualty rate taken by the submarine service over the course of the war.

exactly. 18%, not the 75% casualty rate that the U-boats suffered in the Atlantic theatre and which the GWX values (which nvdrifter apparently used to make his mod) try to model.

[Immacolata]

Nvdrifter please do not let the retards discourage you from making your mods. There are people that use them and like it. Why should idiots dictate whether or not the rest of us shall enjoy your work? If they want realism they can go and make their own realism mods. Or else, they can jump in the ocean for all I care.

/happy user of Airplanes and Sensor mod.

[Immacolata]

the level of potential losses should also be appropriate to the 18% casualty rate taken by the submarine service over the course of the war.

exactly. 18%, not the 75% casualty rate that the U-boats suffered in the Atlantic theatre and which the GWX values (which nvdrifter apparently used to make his mod) try to model.


And what if he does? Sod off, leave us alone. Make your own mod. Go away.

[castorp345]

enemy ASW shouldn't be deaf to a submarine leisurely doing its thing in front of their noses, however good their sensor may look 'on paper'.
well, i suppose that really depends on how serviceable/reliable the ASW assets are and how stealthy the sub is being. so far in sh4 i've seen (all early war) pretty unsuspecting and, as you say, "deaf" escort behavior, but also two-three escorts working jointly to triangulate in active mode during a depth charge attack (and thank goodness for 'the layer'!)...
subjectively speaking (though let me reiterate that i'm passionately interested in getting some hard data here for the different periods of the war), that doesn't seem too improbable an outcome given the state of japanese early-war asw.

[castorp345]

And what if he does? Sod off, leave us alone. Make your own mod. Go away.

:rotfl:

thank you for your oh-so-enlightening contribution to the conversation.
it's really a fine attitude to have...
i can see that you really care for "realism" and for making sh4 a better sim.

:smug:

seriously, is asking "the tough questions" really so threatening? 'sorry for asking anyone to think even a little critically. ;)

[nvdrifter]

Nvdrifter please do not let the retards discourage you from making your mods. There are people that use them and like it. Why should idiots dictate whether or not the rest of us shall enjoy your work? If they want realism they can go and make their own realism mods. Or else, they can jump in the ocean for all I care.

/happy user of Airplanes and Sensor mod.

Immacolata, thanks for the support. I do think sometimes people here post like retards (including me :o). I do expect some degree of criticism with my mods. It just seems that a lot of non-SH4 modders posting here think they have better ideas for modding. I myself would like to see these ideas released in their own mod. It's a lot easier for some people to type a short message criticizing other people's mods than to actually create, playtest and release their own mods. I didn't say I would stop modding altogether. I just can't take any more of this criticism because I used the word 'realistic' in the mod title.

[StandingCow]

Holy crap guys.. take it easy.. all we did was ask a question as to it being more realistic or not, we didn't "bitch" we are not "retards" we wanted to know if this was actually more realistic as the title implied.

Get off your soap boxes and chill. We appreciate the mod community as much as the rest of you, however we want to help them by making them correct as well, sometimes that involves questions and constructive critisims.

[Immacolata]

seriously, is asking "the tough questions" really so threatening? 'sorry for asking anyone to think even a little critically. ;)

Yes, because this has gone to outright badgering of volunteers work. If you don't like the free cookies, go buy some better.

I know that nvdrifter has been on these boards for a while and if he think he knows what he is doing I think we owe him that much to TEST his mods before pulling realism theorycraft out of our bums, right?

[castorp345]

Yes, because this has gone to outright badgering of volunteers work.

i think you might have a peculiar notion of "badgering"...
(see post #46 of this thread for some 'real good' badgering... :lol:)

If you don't like the free cookies, go buy some better.

'working on it.

I know that nvdrifter has been on these boards for a while and if he think he knows what he is doing I think we owe him that much to TEST his mods before pulling realism theorycraft out of our bums, right?

sorry, arguments from "authority" carry exactly zero weight.

(and please what's "theorycraft"?? 'sounds interesting, though i certainly don't think i'd want it anywhere near my posterior :lol:)

[nvdrifter]

Immacolata, they're not worth arguing with. If they think they can create a more realistic sensors mod, more power to them. :-?

And to you Castorp345, I used the word 'realistic' in this mod because it is only my opinion. GWX really knows their stuff. That is why I borrowed their sensor settings. I have nothing to prove to you. And I don't really care if you think this mod isn't technically correct enough for you. If you don't like my mods, don't download or use them. Make your own instead.

[castorp345]

they're not worth arguing with.

so, just to clarify... you don't actually have any info particular to the Pacific theatre that you used in porting over the gwx settings from sh3?

If they think they can create a more realistic sensors mod, more power to them.

thanks for the encouragement! it's just a shame that it has to be antagonistic and defensive, because that certainly was not the spirit in which the issue of "realism" was raised.
however, 'support' of any kind i suppose is a good thing (a lesson you might do well to learn, that is if you actually care about improving your "modding skills", not to mention communication skills), especially since work i'm now looking into with the sensors is certainly a big research project (though one which i think will be well worth the time investment, however it turns out ;))

cheers
hc

[Barkhorn1x]

sorry, arguments from "authority" carry exactly zero weight.


Hmmm...hope you never come before a Judge! ;)

[castorp345]

And to you Castorp345, I used the word 'realistic' in this mod because it is only my opinion. GWX really knows their stuff. That is why I borrowed their sensor settings.
and to you nvdrifter i'd reiterate that opinion does not a substaniated claim make... ;)
i'll readily accept that the gwx folks did their homework (although i suppose that to be consistent i really ought to be skeptical there too :oops:), again however i'd seriously question how applicable it is to the pacific theatre.

I have nothing to prove to you. And I don't really care if you think this mod isn't technically correct enough for you. If you don't like my mods, don't download or use them. Make your own instead.
no you don't (other than that it might be nice to "say what you mean and mean what you say"). nor should you (since you apparently don't care yourself for its accuracy, nevermind even probing the subject a little). nor shall i (since i am, as you kindly suggest, making my own... and you can feel free to criticize it all you want when/if it ever sees the light of day! :lol:)

cheers
hc

:()1:

[castorp345]

Hmmm...hope you never come before a Judge! ;)

:rotfl:

totally OT here, but i suppose that, de juris, the judge isn't the "authority", the law is, and one hopes for and works towards the logical impassivity of the law that it might have its ground in reason, not human foible...
of course we all know how much that plays out in the real world.
:huh:

but of course there's a difference between the law and propadeutic logic...

[nvdrifter]

Hmmm...hope you never come before a Judge! ;)
:rotfl:

totally OT here, but i suppose that, de juris, the judge isn't the "authority", the law is, and one hopes for and works towards the logical impassivity of the law that it might have its ground in reason, not human foible...
of course we all know how much that plays out in the real world.
:huh:

but of course there's a difference between the law and propadeutic logic...
You're really an annoying, hair-splitting little... oh nevermind... ;)

[castorp345]

You're really an annoying, hair-splitting little... oh nevermind... ;)


:lol:

mille merci, chere drifter!

:|\\

[kakemann]

Great work!

Really appreciate this!
Want more challenge!

By the way, I see that after installing this - the Destroyer line of sight is different in the navigation menu (map). Let me try to explain this better...

If you click on a destroyer now there is just one round circle around the destroyer diamond on the map - just like the battleships, merchants and cruisers.

Is it possible to change only this back? Edit a line or something?I mean the map display of destroyers? I want to keep all the other modding though.

Thanks anyway for your effort and for sharing it here! :up:

[Redwine]

the level of potential losses should also be appropriate to the 18% casualty rate taken by the submarine service over the course of the war.

exactly. 18%, not the 75% casualty rate that the U-boats suffered in the Atlantic theatre and which the GWX values ....

It sounds correct.

At first, Many many thnaks Nvdrifter for you job and effort. :up:

I am following this topic closely, i remember the serious effort in SH3 to have better sensors.

It is not posibly to talk about realism, when pasive and active sonars are not modeled into the sim. Yes.. they are not modeled, almost in SH3, and i think SH4 is similar.

AI units have not active sonars or pasive hydrophones, simply has some spheric sectors where they react in determined time if you enter inside of the vulume of these spheric sector.

It is not a sonar, it is not a hydrophone.

I think so the better way is to test the game too much, and attempt to obtain the percent of casuality or percent of deadly succes corresponding to values on real life, according with the diferent ages of the war if it is posible.

I think so we... or you boys, because i have not the game yet, ( i am not sure if i will buy it or not yet, i am waiting for comments).. you boys must to attempt to reach to obtain the 18% of casualities of the war...

For this it is needed to play too much to test. Too much complete campaigns !

When the AI capability was tweaked in SH3, it was a team effort, because there was lot of people with so deadly DDs and DEs, but there was many people with stupd DDs and DEs.

Please make many diferent teams testing each one diferent files and reporting casuality percent ...

And please Nvdrifter and CCIP if you have the tweak files, the best add for the comunity is to share them, and let the people to make its own sensors, so each one can adjust the game at his pleasure. That happens in SH3, thanks to the program and tweak files of TimeTraveller.

Later, you can release in example 3 files, soft, medium and hard... for thiose who dont want to make own, and you cover all people, those who have a hard DD, or those who have a stupid DD AI.

Many thanks to all for effort ! :up::up::up:

[kakemann]

Great work!

Really appreciate this!
Want more challenge!

By the way, I see that after installing this - the Destroyer line of sight is different in the navigation menu (map). Let me try to explain this better...

If you click on a destroyer now there is just one round circle around the destroyer diamond on the map - just like the battleships, merchants and cruisers.

Is it possible to change only this back? Edit a line or something?I mean the map display of destroyers? I want to keep all the other modding though.

Thanks anyway for your effort and for sharing it here! :up:

Ok!

Testet a bit here.
But it seems like this mod "converts" the DD's to crusiers (with the ability to drop depth charges). I tried a quick mission and went on the surface until I was spotted by some DD's they headed straight towards me- and i dived and put the speed to flank. But they didn't ping me and didn't hear me. So I slipped away on flank speed without a single ping on me and they were closer than 800 meters and my depth was 20 metres.

Is there something I don't understand or is it a fix for this?

Thanks! :D

[Immacolata]

/hammers random keys

Wheres the ignore button on this blasted machine?

/hammers more keys

[Respenus]

One question. The read me still says it's for version 1.0 of SH4?!

Now, is the file on your filefront the real thing for 1.1 or did you forget to upload the new one?

[castorp345]

Wheres the ignore button on this blasted machine?

the board does support >ignore<.
go to your User CP and in the left panel click on Buddy/Ignore lists and then feel free to add whoever you like to either.

:cool:

cheers
hc

[kakemann]

One question. The read me still says it's for version 1.0 of SH4?!

Now, is the file on your filefront the real thing for 1.1 or did you forget to upload the new one?
Yeah! Same here - maybe thats why the destroyers acted as cruisers with depthcharges (see my earlier post)

Have the updated for 1.1?

Thanks mate! And again if this works - a million thanks. The destroyers are not a very big threat with the sensors of the original 1.1 patch

[nvdrifter]

I have noticed something is screwy with AI sensor detections. I am going to mess around with sensor sensitivites in the AI_Sensors.dat file and see if it makes any difference.

[nvdrifter]

I made a bunch of tests with different settings and cannot seem to change the blind enemy AI escorts detection abilities. I hope the problem isn't the AI itself (hard-coded). :o

[nvdrifter]

This mod is no longer supported. I made a new release that actually works this time. Please see this thread to learn more:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=108688

[Gizzmoe]

This mod is no longer supported. I made a new release that actually works this time. Please see this thread to learn more:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=108688

Ok, to avoid confusion I close this thread.