S-Class Sub To Be Included After All

[AG124]

The Dev team for SHIV has just announced on the official SHIII forum that they have decided to include the S Class sub in SHIV after all. However, they will not include the Narwhal class but I do understand their reasons behind that decision.:yep:

Q: P38Ace: I read the article and said the P class, Tambor and Gato are included, but I wonder if the S class and Narwhal class will included as they were in SH1
A: The Narwhal won't be included in the release version of the game as it doesn't fit - historically speaking - with the type of gameplay that we have prepared.

The S-class however… is in.

[Sailor Steve]

WOOHOO!!

I can understand about the three big boats. I would love to see them but they really didn't do much in the way of war patrols.

S-boat out of Cavite? WOOHOO!!!

[Safe-Keeper]

Good call, Ubi'. The Type II, er, S-Class is a must:up:.

[Schatten]

This makes me grin. Like :D this. :up:

I always liked the S-boats for some unknown reason.

[bookworm_020]

The pig boat is In!:up::D:D:rock:

Will be great to start a campain with them! I wonder if I'll be able to be the S-44 when she sank a japanese cruiser!

Thankyou Devs!:yep:

[Sailor Steve]

I'm sure we'll be able to engage the enemy. That's why they have us there.:up: :rotfl:

[CCIP]

To me this is a sign of that elusive player influence - it may not be as big as the dynamic campaign in SHIII, but it's great to hear that the devs listened about this one :D

[Tigrone]

I'm amazed that some of these old, really WW1 boats all built before 1925, made as many as 7 war patrols and continued in combat till early 1944 before being withdrawn to training. It's shows how weak the force was in the first 2 years of the war, and how grim the situation, that these old boats stayed in the front line so long. Well done.

I wonder how long I can survive in one?:ping:

[Zero Niner]

Why does the Narwhal class not fit into the gameplay (as the devs put it)?
:confused:

[Torplexed]

You can't keep an old antique down. :up:

[bookworm_020]

Why does the Narwhal class not fit into the gameplay (as the devs put it)?
:confused:

They didn't have that greater impact on the japanese, I don't think they sank any shipping.

[IRONxMortlock]

Why does the Narwhal class not fit into the gameplay (as the devs put it)?
:confused:
They didn't have that greater impact on the japanese, I don't think they sank any shipping.

Perhaps not a huge impact but they definitely sank some Japanese shipping.

http://uboat.net/allies/warships/ship/2957.html
http://uboat.net/allies/warships/ship/2956.html
________
Web shows (http://livesexwebshows.com/)

[iambecomelife]

Excellent. I'm a big fan of S-44 personally, since she got the USN a little revenge after Savo Island - pretty amazing that a few dozen men on a single old sub did what about half a dozen heavy cruisers failed to do.

More importantly, it will be nice to have the "Type II-style" gaming experience live on with this class of sub. IMO it's a nice contrast in comparison to the big, modern fleet boats.

[Torplexed]

Now to complete the S-Boat experience we'll just have to play the sim locked in a unventilated room on a 90 degree day with 100 percent humidity. Perferably while not having bathed in a while. Mmmm. Somebody pass the lukewarm lemonade. :cool:

[Finback]

This is Great news!!! Thank You for the info!

:rock:

[Zero Niner]

Pity about the Narwhal. Between her and her sister sub (USS Nautilus) they did 29 war patrols & credited with sinking 13 Japanese ships for a total of 35,000 tons.
It must be said however that most of the time she was used in covert missions, landing US troops on various islands and conducting resupply runs for guerilla forces fighting the Japanese.

A concise history of the USS Narwhal can be here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Narwhal_%28SS-167%29)

[Gezoes]

Now to complete the S-Boat experience we'll just have to play the sim locked in a unventilated room on a 90 degree day with 100 percent humidity. Perferably while not having bathed in a while. Mmmm. Somebody pass the lukewarm lemonade. :cool:

Wait for the summer of 2007... good chance you'll get your wish!

Great news btw! Thanks to the dev team.

[AG124]

Originally, the Narwhal was credited with sinking the carrier Soryu at Midway, but credit was withdrawn around 1955 when eyewitness accounts indicated that the torpedoed carrier was actually the Kaga and that the only hit was actually a dud.

[dean_acheson]

This is good only if most of the torpedoes don't work, the engines randomly shut down, and various leaks spring up anytime you are deeper than 150 feet....

lol!

[Safe-Keeper]

Random breakdowns are all good, as long as people who don't like them can shut them off.

Looking forward to playing with this sub.

[peterloo]

Both S-class and Type II are pre WWII (i.e. inter-war) designs
However, S-class has a great preformance, i.e. "cooler" than those type II
my signatures shows a Type II, seems that I have to change it to a S-class
Those little bees would sting those stinking Japanese ships:D

http://homepage.eircom.net/~steven/images/ss-125_s-20.gif

[Wulfmann]

Great news.
My father served on only one submarine an S-Boat in the thirties likely in the engine room.
I know, who cares, but will be nice to have the old tubs when the going was harder.
Nice to see they have their ears on at UBI.
Agree the Narwhal is too limited to detract from the effort that is being put to better use in other areas.
One can always play MoH PA for their ride on one of these cruiser subs and the Makin mission. Like someone would have to hit 5 torpedoes with the MG to save the sub.
Still; fun

Wulfmann

[MadMike]

In case anyone wants to read up on S-Boat history-

Includes interior shots on several boats-

http://www.rddesigns.com/subs/s-boats.html


And of course there's "Pigboat 39" the book about S-39 (in case you're wondering where they got the scene of the skipper wearing the Nor'wester at the periscope in "U-570")...

A first hand S-boat account-

http://www.geocities.com/goliverjones/home.htm

(sub school portion starts on page 8).


S-boat histories-

http://www.history.navy.mil/danfs/s-list.htm


Yours, Mike

[TheSatyr]

I wonder if they also added in the MkX torp,since those are what the S boats used. Old,slow steam powered torps that exploded slightly more often than the MKIX...:lol:

[don1reed]

Hoorah for the Suger Boats.

...if it didn't hurt a little bit, everyone would want to do it...

[Sailor Steve]

Great news.
My father served on only one submarine an S-Boat in the thirties likely in the engine room.
I know, who cares, but will be nice to have the old tubs when the going was harder.Wulfmann
I care. I think it's awesome. My dad was just young enough to miss the war, but four of my six uncles served, two of them were at Pearl Harbor.

Did your dad leave any stories? I never thought to ask my uncles until it was too late.

[Wulfmann]

Sad to say it but we ignored my Dad's stories for the most part.

He was on the USS Sacramento, a former colonial cruiser re-classed as a gunboat at Pearl Harbor on Dec 7 1941. It was the proudest thing of his life to have been there that morning.
His ship was the second one in from the point across from battleship row so he was as close to the very middle as one could be and yet that was in some ways as safe a place as any in Pearl.
He later served on one of the converted 4 stackers made for commando raids but was transferred to down under and was in Darwin when it was bombed. I remember him saying he admired the precise attacks of the Vals.
He spent much of the war at a floating dry dock and later when McHale's Navy came on many episodes sounded like the antics my old man was pulling in New Caledonia, at least as he told it.
My Uncle served on the USS Missouri and was at the surrender ceremony. It was on the plague tour he met and married my aunt Georgia married over 50 years until he passed.
My father died in 1971 and I certainly wish I had the sense to have recorded his every thought on Pearl. I am sure I am not alone on regretting not documenting the BS we did not care about when kids.


Wulfmann

[aanker]

The Dev team for SHIV has just announced on the official SHIII forum that they have decided to include the S Class sub in SHIV after all. However, they will not include the Narwhal class but I do understand their reasons behind that decision.:yep:

Q: P38Ace: I read the article and said the P class, Tambor and Gato are included, but I wonder if the S class and Narwhal class will included as they were in SH1
A: The Narwhal won't be included in the release version of the game as it doesn't fit - historically speaking - with the type of gameplay that we have prepared.

The S-class however… is in.
I saw this post the other day and replied before their (UBI Eve forum) board crashed yesterday. I asked.. and I am still wondering if he was confusing the Salmon/Sargo class with the true S-Boats. I have seen this mistake before.

However, I am really hoping it is true and that S-Boats will be included in SH4.

Art

[AG124]

Yes, you are right about that actually.:-? The Salmon class had already been confirmed for SHIV, and maybe the Dev team member answering the question got mixed up (as the SHIII dev team did with the River class DE in the actual release). If that is true, then maybe there will be no 'original' S class after all.:down:

BTW - As I recall, Pacific General was one game which mixed up those two sub classes.

[Sailor Steve]

AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!:damn: :damn: :damn:

Don't even mention that!

I DISBELIEVE! I DISBELIEVE!

[TheSatyr]

Ugh...I forgot about how confusing the S class designation is. You have the S class and the "new" S class....Now I have to wonder which one they were refering to.

[Payoff]

:huh:

[NEON DEON]

Well I don’t understand the decision not to include the Nautilus and the Narwhal.:down:

The Nautilus and Narwhal don’t fit in historically speaking?????
What does that mean? Last time I checked they were both US submarines that participated in the Pacific theater. Damn near everywhere in the Pacific too.
Aleutians, Japanese home islands, Philippines, Indonesia, Midway, and Tarawa (Central Pacific, Gilbert Islands).

They don’t fit with the type of game play that they have prepared. ?

I could have sworn I saw marines in that last developer clip.

The Cruiser subs were the ones that carried out marine special ops missions.

Can’t be that.:p

Must be that they didn’t sink enemy shipping and participate in the PTO.

Top two S boats vs. Nautilus and Narwhal:

Ships sunk (JANAC)

S 38 2 ships 11,073 tons/ 8 war patrols/3 battle stars
S 44 2 ships 8,370 tons/ 5 war patrols/5 battle stars
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTAL 4 ships 19,443 tons/13 war patrols/8 battle stars

VS.
Nautilus 5 ships 19,569 tons/14 war patrols/ 14 battle stars
Narwhal 6 ships 13,269 tons/15 war patrols/ 15 battle stars
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTAL 11 ships 32,838 tons/29 war patrols/ 29 battle stars

Hmm. Can’t be that.:p

I wonder what they mean by gameplay?

[don1reed]

:up:

Way to Go, Neon...dazzle 'em with facts! :D

[Torplexed]

Well I don’t understand the decision not to include the Nautilus and the Narwhal.:down:

They don’t fit with the type of game play that they have prepared. ?

I wonder what they mean by gameplay?
They probably don't want us power-tripping all over their AI merchies with those two six-inch light cruiser guns. ;)

[MadMike]

S-class refers either to a U.S. S-class submarine or British S-class. The Salmon class boats were referred to as "fleet boats" or "Salmon class"...

http://www.rddesigns.com/subs/fleet.html

Yours, Mike

[Sailor Steve]

The Salmon/Sargo class were sometimes also called "the new S-class".

[elanaiba]

No, the developers did not confuse the "S-class" with the "improved S-class"/Salmon class.

[AG124]

Elanaiba, is this some official assurance that the old S-Class will be included after all?:hmm:

[elanaiba]

Well, it was posted on the official Ubi soft forums, don't go assuming it was a confusion.

The devs would not make that mistake, they are aware that the S-boat is wanted in the game, and they are aware of the differences between s-boats and salmons.

[AG124]

Yes, that does make sense.:lol: I did assume that they meant the old S Class in the first place, and will continue to assume so until officially informed that this is not the case.:up:

[CCIP]

I think we can officially say "phew" :p

[NEON DEON]

Well I don’t understand the decision not to include the Nautilus and the Narwhal.:down:

They don’t fit with the type of game play that they have prepared. ?

I wonder what they mean by gameplay?
They probably don't want us power-tripping all over their AI merchies with those two six-inch light cruiser guns. ;)

Guns?:huh:

What Guns?;)

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=94369

[TheSatyr]

We shall see...I just hope the Ukrainians know the difference since it can be confusing.

[CCIP]

We shall see...I just hope the Ukrainians know the difference since it can be confusing.

Ukranians? :o

[Tigrone]

Ukranians? :o

Don't they all live in Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan, now? Aren't they called hosers?

But, I thought Dr. Frankenfurter was the chief IT guy on this project? Don't our developers hail from Transylvania? Aren't they the left over extras from Rocky Horror?

[CCIP]

:lol:

Anyway, I think we can calm down for the moment; I'd like to see what we'll get in that hands-on preview and other likely promo material to get us in the next month or so.

Otherwise I believe a word from Dan is about as sure a sign as we'll get here, and it's a good sign indeed. :)

[KLCARROLL]

To not include the Narwhal Class boats because “They don’t fit with the type of game play that they have prepared” is the most pathetic excuse I have ever heard for bending History to fit a “Simulation”.

The U.S. navy, like the Germany navy, entered WWII with what amounted to a peacetime compliment of submarines, and The Narwhal and her sister ships accounted for a significant percentage of that number.

.....And the U.S. navy was operating with the additional disadvantage of having recently lost a large percentage of it's surface fleet: .....the result being that for the first few months of the war, the submarines WERE the U.S. Navy!

It should also be noted that for the U.S., the first 18 months was a war of loss and retreat. It was in this environment that the true value of the big old "V-boats" became obvious. If you read the cruise summaries of these boats, you find success after success in re-supply (in one instance 45 TONS of supplies and ammo), rescue, evacuation, the landing of raiding parties, and yes, shore bombardment with those big 155mm deck guns.

In real history, the Narwhal Class boats were far from "Historically Insignificant". If the Devs are going to exclude "Historically Insignificant" classes, then they should have excluded the TypeXXI from SH3, since the XXIs never actually inflicted a loss on the enemy! (Honestly now, ....how many of you WOULDN'T scream like scalded cats if they took the Type XXIs away???)

There are also valid "simulation" reasons for including the V-boats: ....Their design was an "Americanization" of the German "U-cruiser" concept that emerged in late WWI; ....Big boats, with very long range, and very heavy surface armaments, which were intended to enhance the boat's ability as a "long cruise" commerce raider. (Hence the V-boat's 371 foot length and two 155mm guns.)

This design philosophy never really got a chance in combat, as WWI ended to soon for that; ....But in the vast Western Pacific, with Japan utterly dependent on it's shipping network for survival, the conditions favorable to the "U-cruiser" concept were re-created: ....Am I alone in thinking that those would be fascinating mission scenarios to play out?

[elanaiba]

Adding any submarine class that is different in outside appearance and weapons loadout will always take development time. Which may exist or not, in a real life development cycle. So in reality, developers are forced to think what adds the most value considering the features of the game and the gameplay they have designed.

Remember that the initial plan didn't even include the S-boats....

[MadMike]

Hat's off to the DevTeam, at least they're going the extra mile (1.6 km) to give us the S-boat. :up:

Yours, Mike

http://www.rddesigns.com/subs/pols25e.jpg

http://www.rddesigns.com/subs/137s32.jpg

http://www.rddesigns.com/subs/48-13.jpg

http://www.rddesigns.com/subs/s49cont1.jpg

[nikimcbee]

WOOHOO!!

I can understand about the three big boats. I would love to see them but they really didn't do much in the way of war patrols.

S-boat out of Cavite? WOOHOO!!!

Dutch Harbor, Here I come!!!:rock:

S-44!!!:rock:
Thank-you:rock:

[CCIP]

Also, as I mentioned in another thread... there are indications that submarines will be moddable in SHIV, meaning there's a good chance that the V-class could be put in by those who really want it (and, let's face it, that'd be the first one on most modders' list)

[nikimcbee]

We shall see...I just hope the Ukrainians know the difference since it can be confusing.

D'oh, I hope "they" didn't see this, that could be the end of S-boats.:rotfl: :doh: :dead:

[Payoff]

Posted by MadMike
http://www.rddesigns.com/subs/48-13.jpg
Just one question. What in the world is a deck erection? :huh:

[NEON DEON]

Adding any submarine class that is different in outside appearance and weapons loadout will always take development time. Which may exist or not, in a real life development cycle. So in reality, developers are forced to think what adds the most value considering the features of the game and the gameplay they have designed.

Remember that the initial plan didn't even include the S-boats....

The most value are the big boats.

The Big boats Argonaut, Narwhal, and Nautilus were awarded 32 out of 39 battle stars given to the V class during WW II. These boats also carried the biggest guns aboard a U S Navy submarine. Two 6 inch 53 caliber cannons(you can still see the Nautilus' guns on display at the Naval Submarine Base New London, in Groton, Connecticut).

The Nautilus and Narwhal could carry 100 marines and 100 tons of cargo and were used extensively throughout the war for special ops missions: They destroyed an oil depot by gun fire; shelled an enemy airfield diverting attention away from a U S mini-wolf pack thus enabling it to exit the sea of Japan; invaded an enemy held island while destroying it’s garrison by naval gunfire; Raided Maikin island with Marines and supported raid with gun fire while sinking 2 ships in the lagoon again by gun fire; landed scouts in the Aleutians; inserted coast watchers; evacuated VIPs, civilians and POWs; recon missions; life guard duty; re-supplied Philippine rebels; as well as destroying enemy shipping.

So I ask this question again:

What type of gameplay do the devolpers have in mind that would exclude these boats?

PS.
Counting all U.S. WW II subs:

Narwhal is tied for second in warpatrols at 15 and Nautilus with 14 war patrols is tied for third.

The Argonaut and Narwhal classes are the only class subs in WWII to earn a battle star for every patrol they went out on.:know:

[KLCARROLL]

Neon Deon;

Well Said! .......You have voiced my thoughts exactly!! :up: :up: :up: :up:

The Narwhal Class boats were far more important than their mere numbers might indicate!


In addition to historical issues, .....I argue in favor of including the Narwhal Class because the whole "U-cruiser" concept never really got a proper trial in either war: ....and I think we're missing a great simulation opportunity here.

The vast size of the Western Pacific, the absolute Japanese dependence on their shipping for their survival, and the widespread distribution of generally smaller merchant vessels recreated the environment the "U-cruiser Concept" was born to deal with. Just because U.S. doctrine at the time didn't implement those tactics is no reason for us not to simulate other style missions. (...And I think the results would be REALLY interesting!)

[Sailor Steve]

Just one question. What in the world is a deck erection? :huh:
That's a good one!:rotfl: I didn't notice that at first. Always read the fine print.

@Neon Deon: You're right. I take back what I said earlier about big boats and war patrols.

[hyperion2206]

Adding any submarine class that is different in outside appearance and weapons loadout will always take development time. Which may exist or not, in a real life development cycle. So in reality, developers are forced to think what adds the most value considering the features of the game and the gameplay they have designed.

Remember that the initial plan didn't even include the S-boats....
The most value are the big boats.

The Big boats Argonaut, Narwhal, and Nautilus were awarded 32 out of 39 battle stars given to the V class during WW II. These boats also carried the biggest guns aboard a U S Navy submarine. Two 6 inch 53 caliber cannons(you can still see the Nautilus' guns on display at the Naval Submarine Base New London, in Groton, Connecticut).

The Nautilus and Narwhal could carry 100 marines and 100 tons of cargo and were used extensively throughout the war for special ops missions: They destroyed an oil depot by gun fire; shelled an enemy airfield diverting attention away from a U S mini-wolf pack thus enabling it to exit the sea of Japan; invaded an enemy held island while destroying it’s garrison by naval gunfire; Raided Maikin island with Marines and supported raid with gun fire while sinking 2 ships in the lagoon again by gun fire; landed scouts in the Aleutians; inserted coast watchers; evacuated VIPs, civilians and POWs; recon missions; life guard duty; re-supplied Philippine rebels; as well as destroying enemy shipping.

So I ask this question again:

What type of gameplay do the devolpers have in mind that would exclude these boats?

PS.
Counting all U.S. WW II subs:

Narwhal is tied for second in warpatrols at 15 and Nautilus with 14 war patrols is tied for third.

The Argonaut and Narwhal classes are the only class subs in WWII to earn a battle star for every patrol they went out on.:know:


I guess the type of gameplay the DEVs have in mind is attacking convoys or task forces and let's face it: the Nautilus and her sisters are just too big to do such job in shallow water (where most of the action will take place I assume). Another thing is that the Narwhal and the Nautilus were mainly used to land marines and the Argonaut cast out mines. I guess these fields of operations are not included.

[NEON DEON]

Adding any submarine class that is different in outside appearance and weapons loadout will always take development time. Which may exist or not, in a real life development cycle. So in reality, developers are forced to think what adds the most value considering the features of the game and the gameplay they have designed.

Remember that the initial plan didn't even include the S-boats....
The most value are the big boats.

The Big boats Argonaut, Narwhal, and Nautilus were awarded 32 out of 39 battle stars given to the V class during WW II. These boats also carried the biggest guns aboard a U S Navy submarine. Two 6 inch 53 caliber cannons(you can still see the Nautilus' guns on display at the Naval Submarine Base New London, in Groton, Connecticut).

The Nautilus and Narwhal could carry 100 marines and 100 tons of cargo and were used extensively throughout the war for special ops missions: They destroyed an oil depot by gun fire; shelled an enemy airfield diverting attention away from a U S mini-wolf pack thus enabling it to exit the sea of Japan; invaded an enemy held island while destroying it’s garrison by naval gunfire; Raided Maikin island with Marines and supported raid with gun fire while sinking 2 ships in the lagoon again by gun fire; landed scouts in the Aleutians; inserted coast watchers; evacuated VIPs, civilians and POWs; recon missions; life guard duty; re-supplied Philippine rebels; as well as destroying enemy shipping.

So I ask this question again:

What type of gameplay do the devolpers have in mind that would exclude these boats?

PS.
Counting all U.S. WW II subs:

Narwhal is tied for second in warpatrols at 15 and Nautilus with 14 war patrols is tied for third.

The Argonaut and Narwhal classes are the only class subs in WWII to earn a battle star for every patrol they went out on.:know:


I guess the type of gameplay the DEVs have in mind is attacking convoys or task forces and let's face it: the Nautilus and her sisters are just too big to do such job in shallow water (where most of the action will take place I assume). Another thing is that the Narwhal and the Nautilus were mainly used to land marines and the Argonaut cast out mines. I guess these fields of operations are not included.

The Argonaut was lost along with her entire compliment of 105 sailors attacking an enemy convoy (the fate of a few dozen fleet boats too). Also the Argonaut’s mine laying equipment had been removed to make room for cargo and troops.

The Narwhal battled not one but two patrol craft on the surface and won.

The Nautilus executed an attack on the carrier Kaga at the battle of Midway.

I believe you can consider this attacking a Task Force:

"At 0755, 4 June, while approaching the northern boundary of her patrol area near Midway, she sighted masts on the horizon. Japanese planes sighted the submarine at the same time and began strafing. After diving to 100 feet, she continued observation. At 0800, a formation of four enemy ships was sighted: 1 battleship and 3 cruisers. Within minutes the submarine was again sighted from the air and bombs began to fall. Two of the cruisers attempted to close for a kill and nine depth charges were dropped at a distance of about 1000 yards.

When the attack ceased, Nautilus planed up to periscope depth. Ships surrounded her. Sighting on the battleship, she fired #2 tube, #1 misfiring. One of the cruisers immediately headed for the boat, which dove to 150 feet to wait out the depth charge attack (0830). At 0846, periscope depth was again ordered. The battleship and two of the cruisers were now out of range; but, echo ranging by the third appeared to be too accurate for comfort. At 0900, the periscope was raised again and an aircraft carrier was sighted. Nautilus changed course to close for an attack. The enemy cruiser followed suit and at 0918 attacked with 6 depth charges.

By 0955 echo ranging ceased and Nautilus raised her periscope. The carrier, her escorts and the attacking cruiser had disappeared. At 1253, damaged carrier Kaga (initially misidentified as Soryu) with two escorts was sighted. An hour later SS-168 had moved into attack position. Between 1359 and 1405 she fired 3 torpedoes at the carrier, then less than 3000 yards away. Flames appeared along the length of the ship as the first “fish” hit – later evidence suggests the hit failed to explode – and the skeleton fire-fighting crew which had been on board the carrier began going over the side. Nautilus went to 300 feet as a prolonged depth charge attack commenced. At 1610, the submarine rose to periscope depth. The carrier, afire her entire length, had been abandoned. At 1941, Nautilus resumed her patrol pattern, having expended five torpedoes and survived 42 depth charges."

Look at the developers clip and you will see marines modeled.

BTW: You have to get in close where the water is shallow to engage shore installations and land troops.

Draft of the Nautilus/Narwhal: 15’ 9”
Draft of the Gato class fleet boat: 19’ 3”

[hyperion2206]

Adding any submarine class that is different in outside appearance and weapons loadout will always take development time. Which may exist or not, in a real life development cycle. So in reality, developers are forced to think what adds the most value considering the features of the game and the gameplay they have designed.

Remember that the initial plan didn't even include the S-boats....
The most value are the big boats.

The Big boats Argonaut, Narwhal, and Nautilus were awarded 32 out of 39 battle stars given to the V class during WW II. These boats also carried the biggest guns aboard a U S Navy submarine. Two 6 inch 53 caliber cannons(you can still see the Nautilus' guns on display at the Naval Submarine Base New London, in Groton, Connecticut).

The Nautilus and Narwhal could carry 100 marines and 100 tons of cargo and were used extensively throughout the war for special ops missions: They destroyed an oil depot by gun fire; shelled an enemy airfield diverting attention away from a U S mini-wolf pack thus enabling it to exit the sea of Japan; invaded an enemy held island while destroying it’s garrison by naval gunfire; Raided Maikin island with Marines and supported raid with gun fire while sinking 2 ships in the lagoon again by gun fire; landed scouts in the Aleutians; inserted coast watchers; evacuated VIPs, civilians and POWs; recon missions; life guard duty; re-supplied Philippine rebels; as well as destroying enemy shipping.

So I ask this question again:

What type of gameplay do the devolpers have in mind that would exclude these boats?

PS.
Counting all U.S. WW II subs:

Narwhal is tied for second in warpatrols at 15 and Nautilus with 14 war patrols is tied for third.

The Argonaut and Narwhal classes are the only class subs in WWII to earn a battle star for every patrol they went out on.:know:

I guess the type of gameplay the DEVs have in mind is attacking convoys or task forces and let's face it: the Nautilus and her sisters are just too big to do such job in shallow water (where most of the action will take place I assume). Another thing is that the Narwhal and the Nautilus were mainly used to land marines and the Argonaut cast out mines. I guess these fields of operations are not included.
The Argonaut was lost along with her entire compliment of 105 sailors attacking an enemy convoy (the fate of a few dozen fleet boats too). Also the Argonaut’s mine laying equipment had been removed to make room for cargo and troops.

The Narwhal battled not one but two patrol craft on the surface and won.

The Nautilus executed an attack on the carrier Kaga at the battle of Midway.

I believe you can consider this attacking a Task Force:

"At 0755, 4 June, while approaching the northern boundary of her patrol area near Midway, she sighted masts on the horizon. Japanese planes sighted the submarine at the same time and began strafing. After diving to 100 feet, she continued observation. At 0800, a formation of four enemy ships was sighted: 1 battleship and 3 cruisers. Within minutes the submarine was again sighted from the air and bombs began to fall. Two of the cruisers attempted to close for a kill and nine depth charges were dropped at a distance of about 1000 yards.

When the attack ceased, Nautilus planed up to periscope depth. Ships surrounded her. Sighting on the battleship, she fired #2 tube, #1 misfiring. One of the cruisers immediately headed for the boat, which dove to 150 feet to wait out the depth charge attack (0830). At 0846, periscope depth was again ordered. The battleship and two of the cruisers were now out of range; but, echo ranging by the third appeared to be too accurate for comfort. At 0900, the periscope was raised again and an aircraft carrier was sighted. Nautilus changed course to close for an attack. The enemy cruiser followed suit and at 0918 attacked with 6 depth charges.

By 0955 echo ranging ceased and Nautilus raised her periscope. The carrier, her escorts and the attacking cruiser had disappeared. At 1253, damaged carrier Kaga (initially misidentified as Soryu) with two escorts was sighted. An hour later SS-168 had moved into attack position. Between 1359 and 1405 she fired 3 torpedoes at the carrier, then less than 3000 yards away. Flames appeared along the length of the ship as the first “fish” hit – later evidence suggests the hit failed to explode – and the skeleton fire-fighting crew which had been on board the carrier began going over the side. Nautilus went to 300 feet as a prolonged depth charge attack commenced. At 1610, the submarine rose to periscope depth. The carrier, afire her entire length, had been abandoned. At 1941, Nautilus resumed her patrol pattern, having expended five torpedoes and survived 42 depth charges."

Look at the developers clip and you will see marines modeled.

BTW: You have to get in close where the water is shallow to engage shore installations and land troops.

Draft of the Nautilus/Narwhal: 15’ 9”
Draft of the Gato class fleet boat: 19’ 3”


1. The water around Midway is DEEP, so there it was safeer to attack a TF.
2. I've seen the Marines on board a sub, but I didn't read that the player has to conduct such raids. Until I hear that I think that is just eye-candy.

I still firmly believe that we have to attack shipping in shallow water and the V-class is just too big and clumsy to evade escorts in these waters.

[don1reed]

I still firmly believe that we have to attack shipping in shallow water and the V-class is just too big and clumsy to evade escorts in these waters.

...thats where gameplay comes into its finest, trying to do something that seems difficult or impossible. Wouldn't you agree?

"If it didn't hurt a little, everyone would want to do it." --SF Team Daddy

Cheers,

[hyperion2206]

I still firmly believe that we have to attack shipping in shallow water and the V-class is just too big and clumsy to evade escorts in these waters.
...thats where gameplay comes into its finest, trying to do something that seems difficult or impossible. Wouldn't you agree?

"If it didn't hurt a little, everyone would want to do it." --SF Team Daddy
Cheers,

I can agree on that and I wouldn't mind to command the Narwhal, but the DEVs have to decide it and I can understand why they don't want to include it.
You don't have to agree with them but you have to accept it and don't moan and nagg.:p

EDIT: What the heck does this avatar of a fat asian communist sailor mean?:o

[NEON DEON]

Adding any submarine class that is different in outside appearance and weapons loadout will always take development time. Which may exist or not, in a real life development cycle. So in reality, developers are forced to think what adds the most value considering the features of the game and the gameplay they have designed.

Remember that the initial plan didn't even include the S-boats....
The most value are the big boats.

The Big boats Argonaut, Narwhal, and Nautilus were awarded 32 out of 39 battle stars given to the V class during WW II. These boats also carried the biggest guns aboard a U S Navy submarine. Two 6 inch 53 caliber cannons(you can still see the Nautilus' guns on display at the Naval Submarine Base New London, in Groton, Connecticut).

The Nautilus and Narwhal could carry 100 marines and 100 tons of cargo and were used extensively throughout the war for special ops missions: They destroyed an oil depot by gun fire; shelled an enemy airfield diverting attention away from a U S mini-wolf pack thus enabling it to exit the sea of Japan; invaded an enemy held island while destroying it’s garrison by naval gunfire; Raided Maikin island with Marines and supported raid with gun fire while sinking 2 ships in the lagoon again by gun fire; landed scouts in the Aleutians; inserted coast watchers; evacuated VIPs, civilians and POWs; recon missions; life guard duty; re-supplied Philippine rebels; as well as destroying enemy shipping.

So I ask this question again:

What type of gameplay do the devolpers have in mind that would exclude these boats?

PS.
Counting all U.S. WW II subs:

Narwhal is tied for second in warpatrols at 15 and Nautilus with 14 war patrols is tied for third.

The Argonaut and Narwhal classes are the only class subs in WWII to earn a battle star for every patrol they went out on.:know:

I guess the type of gameplay the DEVs have in mind is attacking convoys or task forces and let's face it: the Nautilus and her sisters are just too big to do such job in shallow water (where most of the action will take place I assume). Another thing is that the Narwhal and the Nautilus were mainly used to land marines and the Argonaut cast out mines. I guess these fields of operations are not included.
The Argonaut was lost along with her entire compliment of 105 sailors attacking an enemy convoy (the fate of a few dozen fleet boats too). Also the Argonaut’s mine laying equipment had been removed to make room for cargo and troops.

The Narwhal battled not one but two patrol craft on the surface and won.

The Nautilus executed an attack on the carrier Kaga at the battle of Midway.

I believe you can consider this attacking a Task Force:

"At 0755, 4 June, while approaching the northern boundary of her patrol area near Midway, she sighted masts on the horizon. Japanese planes sighted the submarine at the same time and began strafing. After diving to 100 feet, she continued observation. At 0800, a formation of four enemy ships was sighted: 1 battleship and 3 cruisers. Within minutes the submarine was again sighted from the air and bombs began to fall. Two of the cruisers attempted to close for a kill and nine depth charges were dropped at a distance of about 1000 yards.

When the attack ceased, Nautilus planed up to periscope depth. Ships surrounded her. Sighting on the battleship, she fired #2 tube, #1 misfiring. One of the cruisers immediately headed for the boat, which dove to 150 feet to wait out the depth charge attack (0830). At 0846, periscope depth was again ordered. The battleship and two of the cruisers were now out of range; but, echo ranging by the third appeared to be too accurate for comfort. At 0900, the periscope was raised again and an aircraft carrier was sighted. Nautilus changed course to close for an attack. The enemy cruiser followed suit and at 0918 attacked with 6 depth charges.

By 0955 echo ranging ceased and Nautilus raised her periscope. The carrier, her escorts and the attacking cruiser had disappeared. At 1253, damaged carrier Kaga (initially misidentified as Soryu) with two escorts was sighted. An hour later SS-168 had moved into attack position. Between 1359 and 1405 she fired 3 torpedoes at the carrier, then less than 3000 yards away. Flames appeared along the length of the ship as the first “fish” hit – later evidence suggests the hit failed to explode – and the skeleton fire-fighting crew which had been on board the carrier began going over the side. Nautilus went to 300 feet as a prolonged depth charge attack commenced. At 1610, the submarine rose to periscope depth. The carrier, afire her entire length, had been abandoned. At 1941, Nautilus resumed her patrol pattern, having expended five torpedoes and survived 42 depth charges."

Look at the developers clip and you will see marines modeled.

BTW: You have to get in close where the water is shallow to engage shore installations and land troops.

Draft of the Nautilus/Narwhal: 15’ 9”
Draft of the Gato class fleet boat: 19’ 3”


1. The water around Midway is DEEP, so there it was safeer to attack a TF.
2. I've seen the Marines on board a sub, but I didn't read that the player has to conduct such raids. Until I hear that I think that is just eye-candy.

I still firmly believe that we have to attack shipping in shallow water and the V-class is just too big and clumsy to evade escorts in these waters.

“1. The water around Midway is DEEP, so there it was safeer to attack a TF.”

The battle of Midway took place in the Pacific during WWII. I don’t think SH IV means to negate such actions from game play.

“2. I've seen the Marines on board a sub, but I didn't read that the player has to conduct such raids. Until I hear that I think that is just eye-candy.”

Here you go:

http://www.subsim.com/ssr/sh4/sh4_interview1.php

SH4 Survey Questions by the Subsim Community
August 23, 2006

“Subsim: The original Silent Hunter included special missions such as pilot rescue and reconnaissance. Are these type of objectives planned for SH4?

"SH4 Dev Team: SH4 will have both lifeguard duty and photo recon missions. And these will not be the only special missions in the game. You can expect commando insertions or supply drops to be required by HQ.”

The Narwhal class did all those missions.

“I still firmly believe that we have to attack shipping in shallow water and the V-class is just too big and clumsy to evade escorts in these waters”

And yet the Narwhal survived such actions as well as the war. On one patrol, over 50 depth charges were dropped her way not to mention bombs from two air attacks.

I am sorry but, did you miss the fact that the Narwhal class has a draft that is THREE AND HALF FEET LESS than the Gato class. Rhetorical Question coming: What boat do you think would make it over a reef easier?

[Elder-Pirate]

Put ALL the US WWII subs in SHIV and BEEF up your computers ( also probably wait another year for SHIV to hit the shelves ? ) :roll:

But on another note here is something I thought was interesting, USS S25 in 1935 dove to 213 ft and recieved this certificate.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y116/oleman/cert1.jpg

A closer look:


http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y116/oleman/cert2.jpg

Deep dive certificate close up.
date of dive is given as Febuary 28, 1935
at 213 feet in depth at lat. 20 - 44 - 54N
and long 156 - 35 - 57 W off Lahaina, territory of Hawaii.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y116/oleman/s-25sta.jpg
Pretty cool ;)

[hyperion2206]

Adding any submarine class that is different in outside appearance and weapons loadout will always take development time. Which may exist or not, in a real life development cycle. So in reality, developers are forced to think what adds the most value considering the features of the game and the gameplay they have designed.

Remember that the initial plan didn't even include the S-boats....
The most value are the big boats.

The Big boats Argonaut, Narwhal, and Nautilus were awarded 32 out of 39 battle stars given to the V class during WW II. These boats also carried the biggest guns aboard a U S Navy submarine. Two 6 inch 53 caliber cannons(you can still see the Nautilus' guns on display at the Naval Submarine Base New London, in Groton, Connecticut).

The Nautilus and Narwhal could carry 100 marines and 100 tons of cargo and were used extensively throughout the war for special ops missions: They destroyed an oil depot by gun fire; shelled an enemy airfield diverting attention away from a U S mini-wolf pack thus enabling it to exit the sea of Japan; invaded an enemy held island while destroying it’s garrison by naval gunfire; Raided Maikin island with Marines and supported raid with gun fire while sinking 2 ships in the lagoon again by gun fire; landed scouts in the Aleutians; inserted coast watchers; evacuated VIPs, civilians and POWs; recon missions; life guard duty; re-supplied Philippine rebels; as well as destroying enemy shipping.

So I ask this question again:

What type of gameplay do the devolpers have in mind that would exclude these boats?

PS.
Counting all U.S. WW II subs:

Narwhal is tied for second in warpatrols at 15 and Nautilus with 14 war patrols is tied for third.

The Argonaut and Narwhal classes are the only class subs in WWII to earn a battle star for every patrol they went out on.:know:

I guess the type of gameplay the DEVs have in mind is attacking convoys or task forces and let's face it: the Nautilus and her sisters are just too big to do such job in shallow water (where most of the action will take place I assume). Another thing is that the Narwhal and the Nautilus were mainly used to land marines and the Argonaut cast out mines. I guess these fields of operations are not included.
The Argonaut was lost along with her entire compliment of 105 sailors attacking an enemy convoy (the fate of a few dozen fleet boats too). Also the Argonaut’s mine laying equipment had been removed to make room for cargo and troops.

The Narwhal battled not one but two patrol craft on the surface and won.

The Nautilus executed an attack on the carrier Kaga at the battle of Midway.

I believe you can consider this attacking a Task Force:

"At 0755, 4 June, while approaching the northern boundary of her patrol area near Midway, she sighted masts on the horizon. Japanese planes sighted the submarine at the same time and began strafing. After diving to 100 feet, she continued observation. At 0800, a formation of four enemy ships was sighted: 1 battleship and 3 cruisers. Within minutes the submarine was again sighted from the air and bombs began to fall. Two of the cruisers attempted to close for a kill and nine depth charges were dropped at a distance of about 1000 yards.

When the attack ceased, Nautilus planed up to periscope depth. Ships surrounded her. Sighting on the battleship, she fired #2 tube, #1 misfiring. One of the cruisers immediately headed for the boat, which dove to 150 feet to wait out the depth charge attack (0830). At 0846, periscope depth was again ordered. The battleship and two of the cruisers were now out of range; but, echo ranging by the third appeared to be too accurate for comfort. At 0900, the periscope was raised again and an aircraft carrier was sighted. Nautilus changed course to close for an attack. The enemy cruiser followed suit and at 0918 attacked with 6 depth charges.

By 0955 echo ranging ceased and Nautilus raised her periscope. The carrier, her escorts and the attacking cruiser had disappeared. At 1253, damaged carrier Kaga (initially misidentified as Soryu) with two escorts was sighted. An hour later SS-168 had moved into attack position. Between 1359 and 1405 she fired 3 torpedoes at the carrier, then less than 3000 yards away. Flames appeared along the length of the ship as the first “fish” hit – later evidence suggests the hit failed to explode – and the skeleton fire-fighting crew which had been on board the carrier began going over the side. Nautilus went to 300 feet as a prolonged depth charge attack commenced. At 1610, the submarine rose to periscope depth. The carrier, afire her entire length, had been abandoned. At 1941, Nautilus resumed her patrol pattern, having expended five torpedoes and survived 42 depth charges."

Look at the developers clip and you will see marines modeled.

BTW: You have to get in close where the water is shallow to engage shore installations and land troops.

Draft of the Nautilus/Narwhal: 15’ 9”
Draft of the Gato class fleet boat: 19’ 3”

1. The water around Midway is DEEP, so there it was safeer to attack a TF.
2. I've seen the Marines on board a sub, but I didn't read that the player has to conduct such raids. Until I hear that I think that is just eye-candy.

I still firmly believe that we have to attack shipping in shallow water and the V-class is just too big and clumsy to evade escorts in these waters.
“1. The water around Midway is DEEP, so there it was safeer to attack a TF.”

The battle of Midway took place in the Pacific during WWII. I don’t think SH IV means to negate such actions from game play.

“2. I've seen the Marines on board a sub, but I didn't read that the player has to conduct such raids. Until I hear that I think that is just eye-candy.”

Here you go:

http://www.subsim.com/ssr/sh4/sh4_interview1.php

SH4 Survey Questions by the Subsim Community
August 23, 2006

“Subsim: The original Silent Hunter included special missions such as pilot rescue and reconnaissance. Are these type of objectives planned for SH4?

"SH4 Dev Team: SH4 will have both lifeguard duty and photo recon missions. And these will not be the only special missions in the game. You can expect commando insertions or supply drops to be required by HQ.”

The Narwhal class did all those missions.

“I still firmly believe that we have to attack shipping in shallow water and the V-class is just too big and clumsy to evade escorts in these waters”

And yet the Narwhal survived such actions as well as the war. On one patrol, over 50 depth charges were dropped her way not to mention bombs from two air attacks.

I am sorry but, did you miss the fact that the Narwhal class has a draft that is THREE AND HALF FEET LESS than the Gato class. Rhetorical Question coming: What boat do you think would make it over a reef easier?


Where shall I start???
Ok, we can expect extra missions like incerting commandos, that's fine. But do you expect that the devs create the Narwhal just for these missions that most probably will occur from time to time? I agree with you that these subs were used in shallow waters but for COVERT OPERATIONS where they wren't allowed to attack ships, thus the size didn't matter.
To me SH4 is all about sinking ships in shallow water, and to be honest: I don't want to go in shallow waters with the Narwhal. Do you know how fricking dangerous it is to go hunting in shallow water with a IX? It's deadly and it will be even more dangerous with a Gato class sub. With a pig like the Narwhal I wouldn't want to go hunting in such waters.
One finall thought: The US Navy had far more sub classes than Germany, so I guess the devs had to decide which they do not include.

[NEON DEON]

Adding any submarine class that is different in outside appearance and weapons loadout will always take development time. Which may exist or not, in a real life development cycle. So in reality, developers are forced to think what adds the most value considering the features of the game and the gameplay they have designed.

Remember that the initial plan didn't even include the S-boats....
The most value are the big boats.

The Big boats Argonaut, Narwhal, and Nautilus were awarded 32 out of 39 battle stars given to the V class during WW II. These boats also carried the biggest guns aboard a U S Navy submarine. Two 6 inch 53 caliber cannons(you can still see the Nautilus' guns on display at the Naval Submarine Base New London, in Groton, Connecticut).

The Nautilus and Narwhal could carry 100 marines and 100 tons of cargo and were used extensively throughout the war for special ops missions: They destroyed an oil depot by gun fire; shelled an enemy airfield diverting attention away from a U S mini-wolf pack thus enabling it to exit the sea of Japan; invaded an enemy held island while destroying it’s garrison by naval gunfire; Raided Maikin island with Marines and supported raid with gun fire while sinking 2 ships in the lagoon again by gun fire; landed scouts in the Aleutians; inserted coast watchers; evacuated VIPs, civilians and POWs; recon missions; life guard duty; re-supplied Philippine rebels; as well as destroying enemy shipping.

So I ask this question again:

What type of gameplay do the devolpers have in mind that would exclude these boats?

PS.
Counting all U.S. WW II subs:

Narwhal is tied for second in warpatrols at 15 and Nautilus with 14 war patrols is tied for third.

The Argonaut and Narwhal classes are the only class subs in WWII to earn a battle star for every patrol they went out on.:know:

I guess the type of gameplay the DEVs have in mind is attacking convoys or task forces and let's face it: the Nautilus and her sisters are just too big to do such job in shallow water (where most of the action will take place I assume). Another thing is that the Narwhal and the Nautilus were mainly used to land marines and the Argonaut cast out mines. I guess these fields of operations are not included.
The Argonaut was lost along with her entire compliment of 105 sailors attacking an enemy convoy (the fate of a few dozen fleet boats too). Also the Argonaut’s mine laying equipment had been removed to make room for cargo and troops.

The Narwhal battled not one but two patrol craft on the surface and won.

The Nautilus executed an attack on the carrier Kaga at the battle of Midway.

I believe you can consider this attacking a Task Force:

"At 0755, 4 June, while approaching the northern boundary of her patrol area near Midway, she sighted masts on the horizon. Japanese planes sighted the submarine at the same time and began strafing. After diving to 100 feet, she continued observation. At 0800, a formation of four enemy ships was sighted: 1 battleship and 3 cruisers. Within minutes the submarine was again sighted from the air and bombs began to fall. Two of the cruisers attempted to close for a kill and nine depth charges were dropped at a distance of about 1000 yards.

When the attack ceased, Nautilus planed up to periscope depth. Ships surrounded her. Sighting on the battleship, she fired #2 tube, #1 misfiring. One of the cruisers immediately headed for the boat, which dove to 150 feet to wait out the depth charge attack (0830). At 0846, periscope depth was again ordered. The battleship and two of the cruisers were now out of range; but, echo ranging by the third appeared to be too accurate for comfort. At 0900, the periscope was raised again and an aircraft carrier was sighted. Nautilus changed course to close for an attack. The enemy cruiser followed suit and at 0918 attacked with 6 depth charges.

By 0955 echo ranging ceased and Nautilus raised her periscope. The carrier, her escorts and the attacking cruiser had disappeared. At 1253, damaged carrier Kaga (initially misidentified as Soryu) with two escorts was sighted. An hour later SS-168 had moved into attack position. Between 1359 and 1405 she fired 3 torpedoes at the carrier, then less than 3000 yards away. Flames appeared along the length of the ship as the first “fish” hit – later evidence suggests the hit failed to explode – and the skeleton fire-fighting crew which had been on board the carrier began going over the side. Nautilus went to 300 feet as a prolonged depth charge attack commenced. At 1610, the submarine rose to periscope depth. The carrier, afire her entire length, had been abandoned. At 1941, Nautilus resumed her patrol pattern, having expended five torpedoes and survived 42 depth charges."

Look at the developers clip and you will see marines modeled.

BTW: You have to get in close where the water is shallow to engage shore installations and land troops.

Draft of the Nautilus/Narwhal: 15’ 9”
Draft of the Gato class fleet boat: 19’ 3”

1. The water around Midway is DEEP, so there it was safeer to attack a TF.
2. I've seen the Marines on board a sub, but I didn't read that the player has to conduct such raids. Until I hear that I think that is just eye-candy.

I still firmly believe that we have to attack shipping in shallow water and the V-class is just too big and clumsy to evade escorts in these waters.
“1. The water around Midway is DEEP, so there it was safeer to attack a TF.”

The battle of Midway took place in the Pacific during WWII. I don’t think SH IV means to negate such actions from game play.

“2. I've seen the Marines on board a sub, but I didn't read that the player has to conduct such raids. Until I hear that I think that is just eye-candy.”

Here you go:

http://www.subsim.com/ssr/sh4/sh4_interview1.php

SH4 Survey Questions by the Subsim Community
August 23, 2006

“Subsim: The original Silent Hunter included special missions such as pilot rescue and reconnaissance. Are these type of objectives planned for SH4?

"SH4 Dev Team: SH4 will have both lifeguard duty and photo recon missions. And these will not be the only special missions in the game. You can expect commando insertions or supply drops to be required by HQ.”

The Narwhal class did all those missions.

“I still firmly believe that we have to attack shipping in shallow water and the V-class is just too big and clumsy to evade escorts in these waters”

And yet the Narwhal survived such actions as well as the war. On one patrol, over 50 depth charges were dropped her way not to mention bombs from two air attacks.

I am sorry but, did you miss the fact that the Narwhal class has a draft that is THREE AND HALF FEET LESS than the Gato class. Rhetorical Question coming: What boat do you think would make it over a reef easier?


Where shall I start???
Ok, we can expect extra missions like incerting commandos, that's fine. But do you expect that the devs create the Narwhal just for these missions that most probably will occur from time to time? I agree with you that these subs were used in shallow waters but for COVERT OPERATIONS where they wren't allowed to attack ships, thus the size didn't matter.
To me SH4 is all about sinking ships in shallow water, and to be honest: I don't want to go in shallow waters with the Narwhal. Do you know how fricking dangerous it is to go hunting in shallow water with a IX? It's deadly and it will be even more dangerous with a Gato class sub. With a pig like the Narwhal I wouldn't want to go hunting in such waters.
One finall thought: The US Navy had far more sub classes than Germany, so I guess the devs had to decide which they do not include.

We are talking Pacific here not the Atlantic. Allied ASW was far more superior then that of the IJN. The Pacific was way bigger, and the ships were not arranged in huge Atlantic type convoys. The IJN escort command was much smaller and way more spread out than its Allied Atlantic counterpart.


That bit about not being allowed to shoot at ships and such conflicts with the actual historical events.


Narwhal’s 12th war patrol June to July 1944.

"After hasty voyage repairs in Darwin, Narwhal loaded cargo and supplies for a trip to the Dutch East Indies. Departing on her twelfth war patrol (10 June-7 July), she sailed for Ceram Island and a reconnaissance of the Japanese-held petroleum facilities at Bula. Submerging off that port on 13 June, she sighted a large two-mast schooner standing east out of the bay with other schooners anchored in the harbor. Concluding these ships were carrying oil to Japanese garrisons in the region, the submarine spent the rest of the day conducting a careful reconnaissance of the town, fixing the position of oil storage tanks, a boiler house and pipeline pumping station. That night Narwhal closed the shore and fired 56 rounds of 6-inch projectiles into these targets, destroying three gasoline and oil storage tanks and setting fires around the power-house and pumping station area. When enemy shore batteries worked shell splashes to within several hundred yards, the crew secured her guns and “advanced away from the enemy.” Ships’ company was gratified to see the glare from the flames at Bula as far away as two-dozen miles.

Cruising north to Panay, she moved off Lipata Point and surfaced at sunset on 20 June to rendezvous with local boats. The presence of a nearby Japanese garrison proved worrisome for the nine and a half hours it took to unload her cargo and four passengers, however, and the crew departed with 14 evacuees embarked with some relief. The still loud and smoky engines attracted a Japanese sub chaser to her wake but the slow craft was thrown off her trail in the early morning darkness. Narwhal came across powered sailboat No. 2 Shinsu Maru southwest of Culasi a few hours later and sank her with 6-inch gunfire. Turning for home, the submarine sailed into the Sulu Sea and, after dodging past two small escorts, damaged Japanese tanker Itsukushima Maru with two torpedoes on the 22d"

Not exactly the picture you paint now is it?

Sub classes in SH III opposed to SH IV:

II, VII, IX B, IX D*, XXI

S, P, Salmon, Tambor, Gato.

IMHO: I don’t think one more class, when the overall game engine is the same, is too much to ask for. From an improvement stand point, should it not contain more than its predecessors besides just eye candy.

[CCIP]

I think we all can agree that it'd be nice to have the V class in the game!

I also agree that if we can pressure the devs to plug it in, we should try hard!

I just hope people don't make its lack sound like such a game-breaker. I mean, these are nice vessels and all, but of all the classes, I'm sure this one is the most optional, and if there's one we can do without, this is probably it.

This is just like the debate about the British/Dutch subs - sure they had their role out there, no less than the V class! But the devs decided that these were outside the scope, too (much to the disappontment of some).

If we can get them all, though, let's!

[hyperion2206]

I'm not against the V-class at all, I'm just the advocatus diaboli here.;)
One final statement:
1. I've read that we're going to get 6 sub classes, although they did not mention their names (could be that they see Gato and Balao as different classes although they were quite similar).

2. We can expect the Japanese to be far more better than in reality because otherwise the game could be to easy.

I would be happy if the V-class would be included but only if the gameplay still gets the attention from the devs it deserves.

[nikimcbee]

Posted by MadMike
http://www.rddesigns.com/subs/48-13.jpg
Just one question. What in the world is a deck erection? :huh:

I don't want to know:doh: Maybe all of those "submarine " jokes aren't really jokes.:dead:

[NEON DEON]

Neon Deon;

Well Said! .......You have voiced my thoughts exactly!! :up: :up: :up: :up:

The Narwhal Class boats were far more important than their mere numbers might indicate!


In addition to historical issues, .....I argue in favor of including the Narwhal Class because the whole "U-cruiser" concept never really got a proper trial in either war: ....and I think we're missing a great simulation opportunity here.

The vast size of the Western Pacific, the absolute Japanese dependence on their shipping for their survival, and the widespread distribution of generally smaller merchant vessels recreated the environment the "U-cruiser Concept" was born to deal with. Just because U.S. doctrine at the time didn't implement those tactics is no reason for us not to simulate other style missions. (...And I think the results would be REALLY interesting!)

Nice point KLC.:up:

I think the cruiser concept was much more feasible in the the vast Pacific given the level and number of the oposition. Just another reason the Narwhal class should be included. :ping::ping: :ping:

[elanaiba]

This is just like the debate about the British/Dutch subs - sure they had their role out there, no less than the V class! But the devs decided that these were outside the scope, too (much to the disappontment of some).


Adding subs of another nation is quite different than adding another US sub: besides new interiors/exterior of the sub, one needs lots of research, voices, onboard systems such as radars or sonars, weapon, periscope and TDC implementation, and then some work on doctrine, usage, objectives and bases.

[Safe-Keeper]

Will be great to start a campain with them! I wonder if I'll be able to be the S-44 when she sank a japanese cruiser!They can sink things:o?

Now to complete the S-Boat experience we'll just have to play the sim locked in a unventilated room on a 90 degree day with 100 percent humidity. Perferably while not having bathed in a while. Mmmm. Somebody pass the lukewarm lemonade.Simple enough. Just play the game in a sauna. For those of us who have them, nyah:up:.

[NEON DEON]

This is just like the debate about the British/Dutch subs - sure they had their role out there, no less than the V class! But the devs decided that these were outside the scope, too (much to the disappontment of some).


Adding subs of another nation is quite different than adding another US sub: besides new interiors/exterior of the sub, one needs lots of research, voices, onboard systems such as radars or sonars, weapon, periscope and TDC implementation, and then some work on doctrine, usage, objectives and bases.

I hope that means that more US sub classes will be added like----------

THE NARWHAL!:yep: :yep: :ahoy: