PDA

View Full Version : People on boats you sink!


TDK1044
08-15-06, 01:34 PM
One nice addition in SH1V, and something I thought was really missing in SH111, would be to see (and to some degree hear ) on-board activity on a boat you have just hit with a torpedo. Some frenzied running around and distant shouting would be nice. How may of us have watched a boat sink with no on board activity at all..... Just a ghost ship.This is one area that SH1V really needs to address in my opinion. What do you guys think?:D

Safe-Keeper
08-15-06, 01:46 PM
Agreed. Only adding sound effects would do a lot, although I'm one of those who dream of an actual crew running around doing actual things. Fishermen hauling nets on board, tug boat-crewmen preparing to tow a crippled aircraft carrier back harbour [think GTA, with the ambulance and the paramedics arriving when you kill someone], gunners rushing out of the ship to man the flak guns when enemy fighters appear, survivors scrambling over the ship's side and lowering life-boats when the ship is sinking, and so on. Or, of course, surprising a merchant or partisan-crewed fishing boat and seeing the crew burst out on deck with rifles and sub-machine guns and open fire on you:o.

I wonder how much the RAM/CPU load would be for something like that?

TDK1044
08-15-06, 02:11 PM
A lot!! And you're correct, even the sound of distant chaos would add to the reality of the sinking.

Jmack
08-15-06, 06:44 PM
lifeboats would be nice ... and oil slicks and debries like in cfs2

WutWuzDat
08-15-06, 07:55 PM
...cfs2

jezz... that brings back memories :D *Looks over at sidewinder 2 sitting on the desk...*

Jmack
08-15-06, 10:59 PM
my sidewinder 2 is right here in front of me ... more used now for IL2 but cfs2 was very good in ship sinking efects after some modders added their stuff . ships turning and leaving a trail of oil ...

TDK1044
08-16-06, 05:48 AM
I guess what we're all asking the DEVS to consider in SH1V, is that SH111 was realistic during the hunt, the attack and the escape, but the actuality of the sinking boats didn't feel real at all because there was no on board activity. While I think we all understand that to do this in great detail would require huge, unrealistic amounts of RAM, the software could include audio of distant 'on ship' activity and some level of visible activity.

Operator
08-17-06, 04:32 PM
One nice addition in SH1V, and something I thought was really missing in SH111, would be to see (and to some degree hear ) on-board activity on a boat you have just hit with a torpedo.

That was intentionally missing. There was a short writeup from the developer on the rationale for not including those things.

Safe-Keeper
08-17-06, 05:05 PM
Yes. They left life-boats out for ethical reasons. That's not to say I think they should not be back in (only don't give them collision meshes - I don't see a reason why the player should be able to shoot them up).

Jmack
08-17-06, 08:29 PM
i guess they could leave the ethical choices to the players ? no ? or they could make lifetboats "unshootable" like when you point the guns at your own boat.

HunterICX
08-18-06, 06:36 AM
About puppets running around on the ship....nah, if you look at the harbour the people repeating the same thing 24H

But about sounds I miss something

for example

when you hit an Ship without instant sinking/explosion that there will be an alarm sound like in real
for example ''Alarm sound and someone screaming ''ABANDON SHIP!!!''

that would be nice to see...then you at least get the feeling that they care that you shoot them...then like ''Pssst..dont show the sub that we care they shot us''

TDK1044
08-18-06, 07:46 AM
One nice addition in SH1V, and something I thought was really missing in SH111, would be to see (and to some degree hear ) on-board activity on a boat you have just hit with a torpedo.

That was intentionally missing. There was a short writeup from the developer on the rationale for not including those things.

Strange decision. The actual sinking of boats in SH111 was the one thing that was totally unrealistic, when a lot of other things were very realistic. I undersatnd the whole lifeboat thing, but at least give us audio of the alarm sounding a few seconds after a hit, and then some shouting.

CheckSix
08-19-06, 03:38 PM
Should be possible, 'PT boats' , which uses the Storm 2.5 engine, will feature crew abandoning ship, running on deck manning guns etc. rag doll effects also.
(Personally i'd settle for a Royal Navy 'T' class sub. :hmm: )

Redwine
08-21-06, 09:49 AM
Into IL2, A.I. AAA, Flaks... shoots the parachute survivors... you included of course... and no player was in need to go to a psiquiatrician after play the game. :D

I think so the no inclusion of life boats in SH3 is not related to any "moral" limitation, it is only to save job. :hmm:

Safe-Keeper
08-21-06, 10:59 AM
PT Boats doesn't have nearly the graphics Silent Hunter III has, though. Consider how Silent Hunter IV will probably be even better than that, and you see the problem.

And it is related to moral decisions. The deveopers have said so themselves. As for the flight sim argument, shooting an airmen or two is a bit different from leaving hundreds or over a thousand crewmen to drown and never be found, don't you think?

I'd like to see more activity on ships myself, but it's a huge can of worms to open.

Redwine
08-21-06, 02:22 PM
The deveopers have said so themselves.

And you really believe that ? ;)

Capt. D
08-21-06, 04:49 PM
One nice addition in SH1V, and something I thought was really missing in SH111, would be to see (and to some degree hear ) on-board activity on a boat you have just hit with a torpedo. Some frenzied running around and distant shouting would be nice. How may of us have watched a boat sink with no on board activity at all..... Just a ghost ship.This is one area that SH1V really needs to address in my opinion. What do you guys think?:D

I agree, as it appears many do, that there should be some activity on a torpedoed boat. However if you are 1,000 + yards out you may(?) here some shouting etc. but I can't believe you'd actually hear "Abandon Ship". Also, this would mean that you are on the surface correct? What if you are submerged?

Let's have more graphics to the actual explosions and follow up explosions. If we are on the surface enhance the sounds let's here the 'far-away distant' shouting and maybe even the collision alarms - especially if it's a warship! Also if we are submerged let's here better underwater sounds of the explosions and the breaking up of sinking ships.

Again we want this to be a realistic sim - let's keep it as close as we can, with the space of RAM in the equation, vs all the other features we want.

Happy Hunting :ping:

Hylander_1314
08-22-06, 01:00 AM
Personnally I think it would make it easier to tell if you've mortally wounded a ship if you see crew diving overboard, and lifeboats lowering. It would save on ammo since it "is" very limited, and as a captain, you must be very conservative with how you spend that ammo. Every torpedo saved is a new potential target sunk.

Also, the oilslick burning goes out way to soon, and I have yet to see a tanker engulfed in flames from the cargo leaking into the water and setting ablaze, crew on fire jumping into the water. Morality or not, it was a war, and if there is any concern about the kiddies seeing it, (you should see some the stuff that's targeted for the younger audiences.)

Your own sailors can be wounded or killed by enemy actions, so I think it should be the same for those you target. Also, your own men, especially watch crewmen, if wounded or killed while you're sufaced, could have fallen off the boat if their life lines were cut, or unclasped trying to get below for diving.

But it would also be nice to hear the sounds on the warships that come after you too, like the destroyer sirens, and bells as they man battle stations.

To sum it up for me, I do enjoy the game, and it's just a game, but without some of the particulars that are missing, it leaves a feeling of sterillity to the gameplay. War is war, and lives are lost, acts of chivalry and courage occur. Leave it as an option to the game if it's that important.

That's just my take on the subject, even though it's been discussed previously, many times.

Safe-Keeper
08-22-06, 01:41 AM
And you really believe that ? Give me a reason not to.

I agree, as it appears many do, that there should be some activity on a torpedoed boat. However if you are 1,000 + yards out you may(?) here some shouting etc. but I can't believe you'd actually hear "Abandon Ship". Also, this would mean that you are on the surface correct? What if you are submerged?Hydrophones or external view:p.

Again we want this to be a realistic sim - let's keep it as close as we canAnd the crew vanishing in thin air when a ship sinks is just so realistic.

Personnally I think it would make it easier to tell if you've mortally wounded a ship if you see crew diving overboard, and lifeboats lowering.The "She's going down!"-note does it for me, but what the Heck.

Morality or not, it was a war, and if there is any concern about the kiddies seeing it, you should see some the stuff that's targeted for the younger audiences.I don't recall anyone saying they're concerned about kiddies seeing it. To the Hot Place with the kids, this is a teen/adult game.

Your own sailors can be wounded or killed by enemy actionsBut they just vanish, too.

But it would also be nice to hear the sounds on the warships that come after you too, like the destroyer sirens, and bells as they man battle stations.Definetly.

To sum it up for me, I do enjoy the game, and it's just a game, but without some of the particulars that are missing, it leaves a feeling of sterillity to the gameplay. War is war, and lives are lost, acts of chivalry and courage occur. Leave it as an option to the game if it's that important.My sentinents exactly. Leave it an option.

Capt. D
08-22-06, 04:59 PM
I agree, as it appears many do, that there should be some activity on a torpedoed boat. However if you are 1,000 + yards out you may(?) here some shouting etc. but I can't believe you'd actually hear "Abandon Ship". Also, this would mean that you are on the surface correct? What if you are submerged?


Hydrophones or external view:p.

Hydrophones ok but bring the quality up. External view(?) what one sees from the bridge or deck is fine:D - but hold on the "birds eye views":down:

Again we want this to be a realistic sim - let's keep it as close as we can

And the crew vanishing in thin air when a ship sinks is just so realistic.


No - but keep it in the frame of what would have taken place and what would have been seen. If I torpedo a ship (when surfaced or submerged) let me see what I would have seen on the bridge or through the scope. The closer I get to the ship the more detail would be seen. Men climbing down or jumping off ship - life boats etc. is all fine as long as it is from the perspective of what could and would be seen and heard.:)

Happy Hunting :ping:

Sailor Steve
08-22-06, 05:20 PM
Hydrophones...
Do you really think you could hear people yelling and abandoning ship through the hydrophones? I don't.

...or external view:p.
And you're complaining about realism?:rotfl:

Actually, I agree; lifeboats would be a great addition, as long as they were invisible to bullets (but of course a lot of folks would complain about that).

ReM
08-23-06, 04:54 AM
i guess they could leave the ethical choices to the players ? no ? or they could make lifetboats "unshootable" like when you point the guns at your own boat.

In SH III they made the seagulls unshootable, as well as the band etc.....

they should make all those items 'live' in the coming edition and leave the ethical choices to the players indeed....

If they want to 'guide' the players into certain behaviour, they could give huge penalties for strafing lifeboats/allies etc....it would also add to the realism factor, besides the strafing of lifeboats happened at least on one occasion, so it is historical....

Safe-Keeper
08-23-06, 05:15 AM
The Red Cross Hospital Ship has, as we all know, been added to Silent Hunter III. No one's complaining, and if you sink it, you get executed or whatever.

Do you really think you could hear people yelling and abandoning ship through the hydrophones? I don't.It would not surprise me one bit, actually. They could hear waves breaking against shore and whatnot.

And you're complaining about realism?Harr harr. Nice one:-?.

I just said it, pal. I was pointing it out, no more.

Oh, and there is the fact that there will most likely be a lot of deck gun attacks, so:p...

applesthecat
08-24-06, 10:19 PM
Nothing burns my ass more than game developer geeks lecturing me on war morals while they make money simulating war games. Especially when they are hypocrites. In SH3, you can see men flying up in the air from explosions, their bodies flying through the air to certain death.

But they don't want to show men climbing into lifeboats.

Tell me that makes sense?:damn:

If they are so concerned about morals, perhaps by showing a little bit of the reality of the human cost of warfare, they might actually have a moral point that makes sense.

_Seth_
09-09-06, 09:04 PM
How about just lifeboats.....with people in......so the sub can surface and rescue them....and get extra renown for that.....and the kaleun gets the nobel peace price.....:yep:

Serious, lifeboats are a must. even the titanic had working lifeboats....(just enough for half the passengers...):down:

SHIV should consider this. I dont see an ethical problem in this, considering other games on the market. (Shoot-em-up and stuff like that, shotguns & chainsaws....):damn:

Everything that adds to the realism are welcome on my computer! :rotfl:

DaMaGe007
09-09-06, 11:52 PM
I really hate the ethical crap argument, men on deck and lifeboats are essential parts of the sim. If the abandon ship order is given then you know not to waste another topedo on a sinking ship as its going down.
The developers left out so much stuff in SH3 I dont think it was an ethical decision at all its just a excuse for thier lazyness and the publishers greed. How about they use some ethics in these areas instead.
Need I remind people that pixels are not alive at all and noone dies in a computer game ever?

EDIT:
Also a change in deck activity could be a visual indication that you have been spotted, these are essential things and I hope the developers put some effort in this time around, or it may be my last silenthunter purchase, I have ethics, morals and standards too.

also add my vote for AA guns that kill anything, seagulls the band ect..
killing the people on the dock should result in your dismissal/death..but a bit of target practise on a seagull shouldnt...as it is the aa gun feels like a BB gun with it only working on a few things it should even work on your boat causing damage and a reprimand.

John Channing
09-10-06, 08:54 AM
I really hate the ethical crap argument...

the developers left out so much stuff in SH3 I dont think it was an ethical decision at all its just a excuse for thier lazyness and the publishers greed.

I have ethics, morals and standards too.

Perhaps, but you might also want to spend a few minutes with this Forum's Rules of Use

JCC

TDK1044
09-10-06, 09:09 AM
I didn't want to open a huge can of worms here, Guys, but I do find it strange in SH111 that after all the realism building up to the attack, you are infact sinking a ghost ship with nobody on board. In SH1V, I think if the DEVs could find a way to add at least audio of some activity on board a ship which has just been hit, that would be an improvement. If there was a way to include some level of visual activity (if only just at long range) that would also be an improvement.

Henry_pl
09-10-06, 06:53 PM
Developers also said that they don't want you to shoot lifeboats :-?

Well I say: it was war and things like that happened.

Today's games are full of killing people with many sophisticated devices, there are lots of historically based games where you kill people- so what's their point with ethics ?

Would that be a problem to implement lifeboats, and for example make renown fall when shooting them ? (according to historic reality- were kaleuns somehow punished by the Kriegsmarine for shooting survivors ?)

And also- in SH4 that wouldn't be a problem- as far as I know- US Navy and generally allied forces were more "humanitarian"- so loosing renown for shooting lifeboats would be a good solution...

Subnuts
09-10-06, 08:43 PM
Would that be a problem to implement lifeboats, and for example make renown fall when shooting them ? (according to historic reality- were kaleuns somehow punished by the Kriegsmarine for shooting survivors ?)

Seeing as there's only one known case of a U-boat doing that during World War II... I can't answer your question.

DaMaGe007
09-11-06, 04:47 AM
Wasnt that machine gunning survivors in the water with hand held weaponds ?
Im sure an AA gunner shooting deck cargo to cause fire/damage is not going to avoid his target due to a sailor standing in the way.
It was war, and they bombed the civilians in the citys plenty didnt they...the bomber core wasnt shuned and hated for it, they are still concidered heros for thier sacrifices.

Im sure more machine gunning of survivors happened, just never reported, there was a certain level of hatred between nationalities at the time...

and John what are you saying ? you have a problem with the word crap ? or is it my comment regarding the devopers ?...
If crap is against the rules shouldnt the profanity filter mask it ?

EDIT:
also think of a troop ship being topedoed, if the soldiers man lifeboats then shooting them would still be part of the war effort, if they are rescued they would be redeployed.

d@rk51d3
09-11-06, 05:16 AM
Im sure more machine gunning of survivors happened, just never reported, there was a certain level of hatred between nationalities at the time...



That's for sure. My grandfather survived the sinking of the minelayer he was serving on, and the subsequent gunning down of the survivors in the water by Allied forces. But hey, war is war.

kylania
09-11-06, 09:59 AM
when you hit an Ship without instant sinking/explosion that there will be an alarm sound like in real
for example ''Alarm sound and someone screaming ''ABANDON SHIP!!!''

What should happen, especially in SHIII is that starshells get shot up from all ships in the convoy, not just ineffective spot lights waggling around.

_Seth_
09-11-06, 12:52 PM
when you hit an Ship without instant sinking/explosion that there will be an alarm sound like in real
for example ''Alarm sound and someone screaming ''ABANDON SHIP!!!''
What should happen, especially in SHIII is that starshells get shot up from all ships in the convoy, not just ineffective spot lights waggling around.


Sounds cool,mate,but what about FPS when 20-or-something ships fires a bunch of flares?:hmm:

Capt. D
09-11-06, 01:47 PM
EDIT:
also think of a troop ship being topedoed, if the soldiers man lifeboats then shooting them would still be part of the war effort, if they are rescued they would be redeployed.[/quote]

Case in point the USS Wahoo on her third war patrol under Capt. Mush Morton.

From Wahoo (By Richard O'Kane):

"'Secure from battle stations and prepare to surface' Five minutes later at 1310, three blasts sent Wahoo up to a quiet , empty sea. ...then one main engine went on propulsion to take us back to the scene of the trasport's sinking. ...When about 3 miles off, we could see a minimum of twenty boats loaded with Japanese troops, the craft ranging in size from scows to a small cabin cruiser. In a serious, considered tone, the captain ordered, 'Battle stations. Man both guns.' Morton must have seen my questioning expression, for 'Dick', he said, 'the army bombards strategic areas, and the air corps uses area-bombing so the ground forces can advance. Both bring civilian casualties. Now without other casualties, I will prevent these soldiers from getting ashore, for every one who does can mean an American life'. Some Japenese troops were undoubtedly hit during this action, but no individual was deliberately shot in the boats or in the sea. The boats were nothing more than flotsam by the time our submarine had completed a broad half circle and Moton ordered, 'Cease fire'.

It happened and I doubt that the Wahoo was the only sub with a tale like this. We had at times to do what was needed, however I do not believe we deliberately used life boats and their passengers as targets practice. I believe the Battan death march showed what the enemy did without deliberation, but I can not believe we did.

Bottom line - it (ability to fire on life boats) should be an avaliable choice. It is up to the Captain to make that call. If it was really called for can be a decission that Pearl can make and then maybe dictate "punishment" to the Captain.

Happy Hunting :ping:

TDK1044
09-11-06, 02:07 PM
How about hearing realistic noises on the ship after the hit, but only seeing debris in the water rather than bodies? By no means perfect, but at least it would be better than no audio or visual reference to the event.

Capt. D
09-12-06, 09:28 AM
How about hearing realistic noises on the ship after the hit, but only seeing debris in the water rather than bodies? By no means perfect, but at least it would be better than no audio or visual reference to the event.

True. Unless you were attacking a lone ship or some small transports/frieghters that were along the coast - who had no escorts, I think it was a rare occasion when a skipper would surface his boat to take a look at the debris or see if there were bodies floating around. I'd be making sure I was either setting up for my next target or what evasive action I was going to take to get away from the escorts!

We need to hear noises of the explosions on those ships hit - with working torps - as realistic as the devs can do. I mean by that - if I am submerged I should hear only that which my sonar could hear or what I possiably could hear 'through my hull'. If I am on the surface then make it what possiably could now be heard. Same for what was seen either submerged or on the surface. This would be better than no audio or visual reference, but also would be as close to real as could be done.

Some have mentioned all the shoot up/kill people games out on the market. If that is what one wants to do and see than those are the games one needs to purchase and play. This is a sim - keep it as real as can be made and from the point of the subs ability to see, hear, and do. I for one - if something needed to be left out - could do without the 'birds eye' views and underwater scenes in SH2 and 3. If I could not see or hear it from my bridge, lookout stands, scopes, or hear it from my sonar or 'through my hull' then I should not have that ability in the sim. Leave that space for what is required for game play and internal/external graphics etc.

Happy Hunting :ping:

TDK1044
09-12-06, 10:08 AM
I think it's possible for the DEVs to create a happy medium between a ghost ship and a shoot em up. I hope so anyway.