TASW deployment

[stalintc]

Hi there,

I am struggling at the moment getting TASW's through to warships (namely a Russian Carrier group I am having trouble with :D ) their air defences always seem to get the better of them, not that I didnt expect that :)

Are there any tactical documents you know of that people have written regarding TASW deployment?

Or any tips you can give me to get at least a few missiles through a carrier groups air defence umbrella?

The many documents out there have been very helpful to the learning experience I am having with DW at the moment :)

[Wildcat]

Depends on what missile you're launching. Don't make it easy for them. You need to launch a lot of missiles from close in, and preferably after you take out their aegis systems. Once you've killed their missile screen you can have at the rest of the group.

What I would recommend; have your VLS filled with TASMS. Load 2 or 3 harpoons in your torpedo tubes, and 1 or 2 adcaps. Determine which of the group is the missile shield and launch a torpedo from as deep as you can go, below the layer.

Once your adcap(s) are nearly at, or have hit the target, come to missile launching depth. Now launch all your harpoons at the missile shield ship at the same time, not staggered. (Make sure you have enough compressed air for all this). Don't bother firing the harpoons if it's already dead.

Finally, once the main aegis ship is dead (It will probably have been killed by your torpedoes or first missile hit), fire your TASMS at the main fleet ship you want destroyed, probably the carrier.

You may want to experiment with waypoints when firing TASMS. They travel at 510 knots, so if you want all your TASM's to hit at the same time you should stagger the waypoints a little bit (just add a few hundred meters to the waypoints of the missiles you will fire last) so they will all arrive at the same time. This really overwhelms the carrier and it will probably not survive. For good measure, you may consider firing a torpedo or two at the carrier as well, it can take a couple of them.

The entire missile firing sequence including the original harpoons should happen nearly simultaneously, as soon as the aegis ship's dead you need to be firing the rest of your missiles.

Note; Harpoons are better missiles than TASMS. That is why you should use them on the aegis ship instead of the carrier. They are more likely to hit the target than TASMS would be. If you are in the seawolf, I would just recommend using all harpoons except for when you've disabled all the serious missile defenses in the group, then you can use TASMS to deliver a big punch.

[stalintc]

Excellent stuff!

So I need to get pretty close in order to pick out the missile defence platforms. So this is my mistake! I have been firing from a range of about 30nm to take advantage of the TASM's long range, at which I have only identified the Kunetsov Carrier because of its strong narrowband signal.

So im looking to get closer to pick out more of the ships in the group now and send torps on those missile ships, I am assuming passive torps would be the answer to stop the group manuvering too early?

And then perhaps if I set the missiles to swing in from both sides in two seperate groups to divide the attention of any remain air defence systems?

I havent used harpoons yet from my sub, this is worth considering.

You have given me some things to think about and practice with, thank you very much :)

This sort of thing may be obvious to many on the forum, but im used to WWII sub simming, and not modern day weapons systems, so sorry if this was a bit of a dumb thing to ask.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Once your adcap(s) are nearly at, or have hit the target, come to missile launching depth. Now launch all your harpoons at the missile shield ship at the same time, not staggered. (Make sure you have enough compressed air for all this). Don't bother firing the harpoons if it's already dead.

Honestly, if yyour ADCAPs are close to hitting it anyway, why bother launching those puny Harpoons?

Finally, once the main aegis ship is dead (It will probably have been killed by your torpedoes or first missile hit), fire your TASMS at the main fleet ship you want destroyed, probably the carrier.

In my experience, missile hits don't often kill anyone, but a torp hit is lethal.

You may want to experiment with waypoints when firing TASMS. They travel at 510 knots, so if you want all your TASM's to hit at the same time you should stagger the waypoints a little bit (just add a few hundred meters to the waypoints of the missiles you will fire last) so they will all arrive at the same time.

If you want TOT, shouldn't you extend the distance for the FIRST missiles so they take a bit longer than the last?

Note; Harpoons are better missiles than TASMS. That is why you should use them on the aegis ship instead of the carrier. They are more likely to hit the target than TASMS would be. If you are in the seawolf, I would just recommend using all harpoons except for when you've disabled all the serious missile defenses in the group, then you can use TASMS to deliver a big punch.

Honestly, if you are going to use so many torps for defense suppression, why don't you just stick to torps until everything really important is dead, then attack with missiles so you don't really mind even if they all get shot down?

[LuftWolf]

There are no waypoints for TASMs or sub-launched Harpoons.

[Wildcat]

Honestly, if yyour ADCAPs are close to hitting it anyway, why bother launching those puny Harpoons?

Because (in reality) harpoons are sea skimming missiles and are not as easily detected and destroyed by anti missile systems, especially by those on non aegis platforms. In game harpoons seem to be less easily killed, though visually they fly at the same altitude as tlams and tasms. Missiles also cripple most ships so they cannot run away from you or attack you.

In my experience, missile hits don't often kill anyone, but a torp hit is lethal.

They are both lethal, else there would be no point in ever having designed them. Missiles are good for stand off range, and in DW for finishing a job you started with a torpedo, or killing lightly defended targets. A carrier is pretty lightly defended against missile attack, if you throw enough missiles at it, it's in big trouble. Once the aegis ship is killed, a carrier like kuznetsov can only rely on its ciws and its extremely slow missile launcher.

If you want TOT, shouldn't you extend the distance for the FIRST missiles so they take a bit longer than the last?
That's what I meant to say.

Honestly, if you are going to use so many torps for defense suppression, why don't you just stick to torps until everything really important is dead, then attack with missiles so you don't really mind even if they all get shot down?
You can conduct an attack on a carrier group with as little as one or two torpedoes.. Once the aegis ship is down, why not use missiles? It gives your location away, sure, but it also allows you to attack from a greater distance with greater speed and less chance of the target escaping.

Honestly, if yyour ADCAPs are close to hitting it anyway, why bother launching those puny Harpoons?
Because an adcap almost never kills big warships with one shot. It probably will disable them. The purpose of firing the harpoons is to kill the wounded ship instead of wasting another torpedo on it. There is no point in wasting 2 torpedos on an aegis ship that only needs 1 more harpoon to kill it. That torpedo could be put to better use elsewhere, such as hitting and disabling the carrier.

There are no waypoints for TASMs or sub-launched Harpoons.
You're right, I got confused with the FFG's harpoon. The TLAMS launched from subs are waypoint programmable.

[Sea Demon]

Torpedo attacks are your best option for any sub. I would only use sub-launched anti-ship missiles when the target is at a far distance from me, and I'm in a tactical/positional situation which would make intercepting the ship for torpedo attack difficult. It would make more sense for me to use missiles in that case. In the Seawolf, (Sea Demon's choice :up: ) I load all 8 tubes with Harpoons or TASM's to increase the PK.

While my loadout is mostly torpedoes, I always carry at least 12-16 anti-ship missiles just for such an occasion.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Because (in reality) harpoons are sea skimming missiles and are not as easily detected and destroyed by anti missile systems, especially by those on non aegis platforms. In game harpoons seem to be less easily killed, though visually they fly at the same altitude as tlams and tasms. Missiles also cripple most ships so they cannot run away from you or attack you.

Probably it is the radar SL factor. Also, I'm not criticizing here potentials of Harpoon, rather how it contributes to a combined missile torp tactic.

They are both lethal, else there would be no point in ever having designed them.

I meant in the game - not many people, even in the world's armed forces combined, have experience with using real ASMs against real targets.

I once shot six SS-N-27 missiles at an Aegis, of which three hit. Depressingly, it took only 80% damage and still moved at a fair clip. In real life, it'd be ablaze.

if you throw enough missiles at it, it's in big trouble. Once the aegis ship is killed, a carrier like kuznetsov can only rely on its ciws and its extremely slow missile launcher.

Yes, you can throw 12 missiles at it and get some penetrations, but with only four torps it'd DEFINITELY be dead.

You can conduct an attack on a carrier group with as little as one or two torpedoes..

This sounds like an advantage until one remembers that you have to spend three times as many missiles to get enough penetrations

Once the aegis ship is down, why not use missiles? It gives your location away, sure,

In real life, you wouldn't be so positive as they start salvoing Silexes and Starfishes onto your now known location and heloes move in to localize and track you.

but it also allows you to attack from a greater distance with greater speed and less chance of the target escaping.

You gave up all three already when you decided to coordinate the attack with the torp. Your distance, speed are all on the torp.

Because an adcap almost never kills big warships with one shot. It probably will disable them. The purpose of firing the harpoons is to kill the wounded ship instead of wasting another torpedo on it.

This sounds like a tactic until you remember the Harpoon, unlike the TASM (which goes into VLS), is there at the expense of a torpedo. More likely, you will need 2-3 Harpoons to do the same job, so you are down 2-3 torpedoes.

Torpedo attacks are your best option for any sub. I would only use sub-launched anti-ship missiles when the target is at a far distance from me, and I'm in a tactical/positional situation which would make intercepting the ship for torpedo attack difficult. It would make more sense for me to use missiles in that case. In the Seawolf, (Sea Demon's choice :up: ) I load all 8 tubes with Harpoons or TASM's to increase the PK.

While my loadout is mostly torpedoes, I always carry at least 12-16 anti-ship missiles just for such an occasion.

I agree. When I use Akulas, I put 6 in the externals because 53cm torpedoes there lose efficiency because they cannot be wire guided. In addition, if there aren't that many targets, I'd put another 8 in my torpedo racks for a single 14 missile salvo. However many I put, I never plan for their contribution to be more than a bonus - or maybe a last ditch because my last torpedo missed and there is that one ship out there alive.

[Wildcat]

Well whatever bud. Do what you like, I know what works best for me.

[SeaQueen]

Excellent stuff!

So I need to get pretty close in order to pick out the missile defence platforms. So this is my mistake! I have been firing from a range of about 30nm to take advantage of the TASM's long range, at which I have only identified the Kunetsov Carrier because of its strong narrowband signal.


I'm not against the long shot. In fact, one of the advantages of equipping a submarine with cruise missiles, is that it no longer has to get in close. If you're going to do it this way, though, you need to expect that at least a few of your missiles will be shot down and plan around it. You might not sink the main ship, either, merely damage it. If this is the case, you need to shoot your maximum salvo size of cruise missiles. In the case of the 688i, that would be 12VLS+4 tube launched = 16 missiles. The idea is to deliver your full firepower as a single pulse, in the hopes that his countermeasures, defensive missiles, and point defenses, are unable to deal with all of them, and the few leakers will hopefully damage or destroy a few of the targets.

You might also consider a coordinated attack with a surface combattant, sub or aircraft.

After you've done that, you should still try to close if you can, and finish off what's left with torpedoes.


So im looking to get closer to pick out more of the ships in the group now and send torps on those missile ships, I am assuming passive torps would be the answer to stop the group manuvering too early?


Not necessarily. Another possibility is to coordinate with another sub. "You torpedo the screens, I'll cruise missile the main body," or to coordinate with aircraft. Even sinking just one of the screens can make a big difference in your cruise missile's effectiveness.

[stalintc]

Thats great advice indeed, I now have a little more to think about when setting up an attack. Thanks!

I doubt I will get to team up with another sub in single missions against the AI, but its worth the thought if I get into MP.

The group in question must be pretty powerful as the first time I tried, I used a full 688i salvo of TASM's from about 30nm only 2 of which got close to the group only to be downed by CISW, maybe if I split my shot into two groups heading in from 2 bearings?

I didnt want to get too close to the group for fear of their Helix helicopters being around.

[SeaQueen]

The group in question must be pretty powerful as the first time I tried, I used a full 688i salvo of TASM's from about 30nm only 2 of which got close to the group only to be downed by CISW, maybe if I split my shot into two groups heading in from 2 bearings?


Yeah... air defenses can be pretty tough to penetrate for a single warship.

This sort of attack is almost the sort of thing better played out in Harpoon. You'll get similar results there, where well defended warships almost always win against single submarines firing cruise missiles unless they're either VERY close (so close that they often might as well shoot a torpedo), or they participate in a coordinated attack with other platforms from multiple threat axis.

I'm not sure splitting up the salvo would help or not. I'd have to think about it more. My instinct is that it is better to concentrate firepower, though.

In this case, if you're going to go after a carrier, it's almost best to think about yourself as an advanced scout for a heavier surface fleet of 800-lb gorillas - most likely another carrier battle group. You're covert, you're forward. You are NOT necessarily sufficiently well armed to take on the fleet you just detected. They just have too much defensive firepower. The only thing you can hope for is to maybe take out a few of the screens and get lucky.

If the opportunity presents itself (i.e. they nearly run over you), you might sneak in REAL close, and hit the main body from inside their ASW screens. If that's impossible, then the mission is about scouting, harassment, and weakening the bad guys before your fleet really starts up on them. This is the sort of guerilla warfare at sea that submarines are built for.

[Bellman]

In Harpoon ASW missile overkill invariably is successful where it follows upon careful preparatory attacks
which have selectively degraded onboard radar defences. Appropriate surgical anti-radar weapons are not available
in DW. Nor for that matter are the vital EW triad of ESM, ECM or ECCM !

Saturation then here is the only available way to go - a massive overwhelming of all defensive facilities
by multi-directional missile attacks, attempting to get as much ordinance as possible on target at the same time !

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

I'm not sure splitting up the salvo would help or not. I'd have to think about it more. My instinct is that it is better to concentrate firepower, though.

Splitting up the salvo helps in real life because of the limited arcs of directors. Say you are engaging a Neustrashimy - one SA-N-9 director, which engages four targets within a 45 degree arc.

If you fire four Harpoons (all you have if you are an LA), he can potentially see and engage them all. If you fire them off different courses to converge correctly, he would first have to swing his director one way to engage two, wait for those targets to be destroyed, then turn the director around to engage three and four, by which it is probably too late.

On the other hand, I have a feeling DW doesn't really model this. It does seem to model the limited arcs of Weapons, however. If you fire from two directions, you might give the Neu a chance to engage with both port and starboard CIWS instead of just one side's.

In real life, you have to have a familiarity with the defenses you are attacking and weigh the factors. In the game, I suppose you should just hit from one side.

[Linton]

I believe after the Falklands War a phrase appeared about how to attack warships."Missiles burn,torpedos sink"-just look at HMS Sheffield.

[zma]

In Harpoon ASW missile overkill invariably is successful where it follows upon careful preparatory attacks
which have selectively degraded onboard radar defences. Appropriate surgical anti-radar weapons are not available
in DW. Nor for that matter are the vital EW triad of ESM, ECM or ECCM !

Saturation then here is the only available way to go - a massive overwhelming of all defensive facilities
by multi-directional missile attacks, attempting to get as much ordinance as possible on target at the same time !

"I don't have a clue what you're talkin' about, Phil. Not a *******ing clue. I have a shell the size of a fist in my head. Pork Chop Hill. The only way I can make this goddamn toupee to stay on is by magnetizing the entire upper left quadrant of my skull, so you just go ahead and do what you do."

[SeaQueen]

In real life, you have to have a familiarity with the defenses you are attacking and weigh the factors. In the game, I suppose you should just hit from one side.

I know that the CIWS and 76mm can get masked, I don't know if other weapons systems have problems like that. So far I haven't noticed it in the SM-2. It makes sort of an analogous situation if the same holds true for AI platforms.