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donut
12-22-05, 05:04 PM
From site http://www.combinedfleet.com/ss.htm Japan had what was easily the most diverse submarine fleet of any nation in the Second World War. These included manned torpedoes, midget submarines, medium-range submarines, purpose-built supply submarines (many for use by the Army), long-range fleet submarines (many of which carried an aircraft), submarines with high submerged speed, and submarines that could carry multiple bombers.

Because of the vastness of the Pacific, Japan built many boats of extreme range and size, many of which were capable of cruises exceeding 20,000 miles and lasting more than 100 days. In fact, Japan built what were by far the largest submarines in the world, indeed, the only submarines over 5,000 tons submerged displacement, or submarines over 400 feet in length until the advent of nuclear power. These same boats were credited with a range of 37,500 miles at 14 knots, a figure never matched by any other diesel-electric submarine. These large boats could each carry three floatplane bombers, the only submarines in history so capable. Japan built 41 submarines that could carry one or more aircraft, while the vast submarine fleets of the United States, Britain, and Germany included not one submarine so capable.

During the Second World War, there were 56 submarines larger than 3,000 tons in the entire world, and 52 of these were Japanese. Japan built 65 submarines with ranges exceeding 20,000 miles at ten knots, while the Allies had no submarine capable of this feat. By 1945, Japan had built all 39 of the world's diesel-electric submarines with more than 10,000 horsepower, and all 57 of the world's diesel-electric submarines capable of 23+ knots surface speed.

The Japanese navy also built submarines with the fastest underwater speeds of any nation's combat submarines. They employed 78 midget submarines capable of 18.5 to 19 knots submerged, and built 110 others capable of 16 knots. As the war was ending they completed four medium-sized submarines capable of 19 knots submerged. This exceeds the 17.5-knot performance of the famed German Type XXI coming into service at the same time. As early as 1938, Japan completed the experimental Submarine Number 71, capable of more than 21 knots submerged.

Japanese submarines employed the best torpedoes available during the Second World War. The Type 95 torpedo used pure oxygen to burn kerosene, instead of the compressed air and alcohol used in other nation's torpedoes. This gave them about three times the range of their Allied counterparts, and also reduced their wake, making them harder to notice and avoid. The Type 95 also had by far the largest warhead of any submarine torpedo, initially 893 pounds (405 kg), increased to 1210 pounds (550 kg) late in the war. All Japanese torpedoes made during the war used Japanese Type 97 explosive, a mixture of 60% TNT and 40% hexanitrodiphenylamine. Most importantly, the Type 95 used a simple contact exploder, and was therefore far more reliable than its American counterpart, the Mark 14, until the latter was improved in late-1943. Japan also developed and used an electric torpedo, the Type 92. This weapon had modest performance compared to the Type 95, but emitted no exhaust and, therefore, left no wake to reveal its presence. Similar electric torpedoes were used by several nations.

Given their size, range, speed, and torpedoes, Japanese submarines achieved surprisingly little. This was because they were mainly employed against warships, which were fast, maneuverable, and well-defended when compared to merchant ships. Japanese naval doctrine was built around the concept of fighting a single decisive battle, as they had done at Tsushima 40 years earlier. They thought of their submarines as scouts, whose main role was to locate, shadow, and attack Allied naval task forces. This approach gave a significant return in 1942 when they sank two fleet carriers, one cruiser, and a few destroyers and other warships, and also damaged two battleships, one fleet carrier (twice), and a cruiser. However, as Allied intelligence, technologies, methods, and numbers improved, the Japanese submarines were never again able to achieve this frequency of success. For this reason, many argue that the Japanese submarine force would have been better used against merchant ships, patrolling Allied shipping lanes instead of lurking outside naval bases. Bagnasco credits the Japanese submarine fleet with sinking 184 merchant ships of 907,000 GRT. This figure is far less than achieved by the Germans (2,840 ships of 14.3 million GRT), the Americans (1,079 ships of 4.65 million tons), and the British (493 ships of 1.52 million tons). It seems reasonable that an all-out blitz of the American west coast, the Panama Canal, and the approaches to Hawaii, New Zealand, Australia and India would have caused the Allies more difficulty than did the naval deprivations that were actually achieved. Losing a significant number of merchant ships, and also needing to spread meager defenses even more thinly along two coasts, would surely have had some substantial consequences for the United States in 1942.

The Japanese did, of course, make some attacks on merchant shipping in the Pacific and Indian Oceans, but these were the minority of missions. Frequently, they waited for fleets that were never seen, supported spectacularly brave but inconsequential reconnaissance flights, or toted midget submarines about, all of which achieved rather less than was possible with so valuable a resource as the Japanese submarine fleet. Worse from a naval perspective, Japanese submarines were increasingly employed in running supplies to the starving garrisons of isolated islands. The Japanese expended hundreds of sorties in this way, which might have otherwise been used offensively against the Allied war effort. A submarine's cargo capacity was much less than that of a relatively inexpensive freighter. However, Japan was understandably reluctant to let island garrisons starve. Additionally, many practically unarmed submarines (including 26 built for Army use) were built specifically for the supply role, consuming production resources as well.

For their disappointing achievements, Japanese submarines paid heavily. Japan started the war with 63 ocean-going submarines (i.e., not including midgets), and completed 111 during the war, for a total of 174. However, three-quarters of these (128 boats) were lost during the conflict, a proportion of loss similar that experienced by Germany's U-Boats. Most of the surviving boats were either dedicated to training roles or were recently completed and never saw combat. Of those which saw significant combat, the toll was very grim indeed. For example, of the 30 submarines that supported the Pearl Harbor attack, none survived the war.

Compared to German submarines, Japan's huge boats were relatively easy to sight visually and with radar, slow to dive, hard to maneuver underwater, easy to track on sonar, and easy to hit. Japanese hulls were also not as strong as those of German boats, and therefore could not dive as deeply nor survive such rough treatment. Also, they lacked radar until the first sets were installed in June 1944, and never had sets as good as the Allies possessed.

Compounding these deficiencies, Japan was at war with the United States and the United Kingdom, two nations embroiled in a vast conflict with hundreds of U-Boats in the Atlantic, and hence two nations which poured lavish resources into anti-submarine warfare (ASW) research and development. As an example of the fruits of this research, in June 1944 the US Navy sank the I-52 by using code-breaking to discover her schedule, finding her at night with radar-equipped carrier-based aircraft, tracking her underwater with sonobuoys dropped by those aircraft, and sinking her with acoustic homing torpedoes dropped by the same aircraft. The Japanese could achieve none of these technological feats at that time.

In the face of such disadvantages, morale declined within the Japanese submarine force. This is reflected in a post-war report prepared by the US and British Navies which states, "It was frankly impossible to believe that submarines could spend weeks on the US west coast 'without contacts,' or spend more than 40 days running among the Solomons during the Guadalcanal campaign 'without seeing any targets.' Even the Japanese commanding officers could not disguise their embarrassment when recounting these tales. Further enlightenment is found in the extremely large number of times the target was 'too far away to attack.'"

Sources:

Polmar, Norman and Dorr B. Carpenter. Submarines of the Imperial Japanese Navy, Conway Maritime Press, 1986.

Boyd, Carl and Akihiko Yoshida. The Japanese Submarine Force and World War II, Naval Institute Press, 1995.

Bagnasco, Erminio. Submarines of World War Two, Naval Institute Press, 1977.



Your works cut out.Worse than BDU.

Palindromeria
12-24-05, 04:17 PM
a few years ago , i converted a few of the IJN subs from DC , tweaked em a bit, made em work in sh2. I find it to be a heckuva challenge.
Dual deck guns on a couple of em and the midget subs are a hoot
As long as i dont get worried about surviving regularly, its fun ...

I'm surprised with all the potential sh2/dc had in terms of VARIETY,
IJN vs dutch, us or brit; brit vs ijn german or italian ETC
that they continue to make such short sighted products instead.

mandatory "these guys vs those guys" instead of whoever vs whoever

i would prefer to see an sh4 / dc2 solely focused on multi play
with the ability to play as VARIOUS nations and submarines vessels

Caseck
01-07-06, 08:29 PM
I completely agree with you.

This is the problem with conventional marketing, is it can only predict how known products sell. Something which concentrates soley on multiplay is really a new product, and nobody seems to see the potential a geared multiplayer-war-simulation like that would have.

The sad part is, especially with SH3, is the multiplay aspect is THERE, it just hasn't been tweaked in ANY WAY to take advantage of the capabilities it offers.

It's definitely a completely neglected potential.

ironkross
01-07-06, 09:18 PM
Here's a painting (The Final Act -Artist: John Meeks) of the Japanese submarine I-25 capable of carrying aircraft. It provides a good aspect point to convey the huge size of the sub. Yeah, try to model one of these in the game. :rock:



http://www.subart.net/final_act.jpg
"The story behind the painting...
Designed to attack the Panama Canal (an act which would have given the allies a few problems!), the I400 class boats of the Imperial Japanese Navy were the largest submarines of WWII - and never saw combat ! Of this class, only two or three appear to have survived until the end of the war. I404 was destroyed in a bombing raid, and I405 was never completed.

Monstrous vessels (with a submerged displacement in the order of 6000 tons, a crew of apparently 180-odd men, and...well, that hangar could take a London or New York subway train...!) they were true submersible aircraft carriers, each being equipped with three Aichi M6A1 "Seiran" floatplane attack bombers. "

http://www.subart.net/final_act.htm

g-z
01-07-06, 09:44 PM
That's insane. I didn't know anything about them.

http://www.pacerfarm.org/i-400/fig02f.jpg

Torplexed
01-07-06, 09:58 PM
They were both on their way to attack the U.S. carrier anchorage at Ulithi atoll just as the war ended. Fascinating as these monster subs were they are also very symbolic of how Japan frittered away her rather meager resources during the war. Even if they had managed to damage the Panama Canal locks at that point in the war it probably wouldn't have made much of a difference

I-25
01-09-06, 03:02 PM
Here's a painting (The Final Act -Artist: John Meeks) of the Japanese submarine I-25 capable of carrying aircraft. It provides a good aspect point to convey the huge size of the sub. Yeah, try to model one of these in the game. :rock:



http://www.subart.net/final_act.jpg
"The story behind the painting...
Designed to attack the Panama Canal (an act which would have given the allies a few problems!), the I400 class boats of the Imperial Japanese Navy were the largest submarines of WWII - and never saw combat ! Of this class, only two or three appear to have survived until the end of the war. I404 was destroyed in a bombing raid, and I405 was never completed.

Monstrous vessels (with a submerged displacement in the order of 6000 tons, a crew of apparently 180-odd men, and...well, that hangar could take a London or New York subway train...!) they were true submersible aircraft carriers, each being equipped with three Aichi M6A1 "Seiran" floatplane attack bombers. "

http://www.subart.net/final_act.htm

THAT IS NOT MY NAMESAKE!

thats clearly the I-400 the I-25 was a Single plane sub

aahh... i wanted to be the first to put this post up... :(

Palindromeria
01-10-06, 04:15 PM
Ive occasionally used the NSSB2 in sh2 with an
airbase attached to it to have the scout plane.

really helps as one cant hear much at 23.5 kts :arrgh!:

zaza
01-13-06, 12:10 AM
Hey guys do you know what words says?

It says 最期の幕 "saigo no maku"
That's mean Last chappter or Act on death
,end roll.

I don't know why this paiting say so.


This is now what I now maiking,1/700 scale
I-400, Ro-35, U type 7
http://img480.imageshack.us/img480/4255/pict06867rx.jpg
http://img424.imageshack.us/img424/1442/pict06842fw.jpg

How huge I-400 is!!!

ironkross
01-14-06, 11:22 AM
THAT IS NOT MY NAMESAKE!

thats clearly the I-400 the I-25 was a Single plane sub

aahh... i wanted to be the first to put this post up... :(

Thanks for the correction. I'm ignorant of much of the IJN sub types. Just got that off a website.

VON_CAPO
01-17-06, 02:41 PM
I was investigating the Imperial Japanese Navy, and I found out that these guys were very serious :o :o :o

Take a look at the hardware:

http://img365.imageshack.us/img365/7903/8416yy.th.jpg (http://img365.imageshack.us/my.php?image=8416yy.jpg) http://img365.imageshack.us/img365/6826/c1399864bf.th.jpg (http://img365.imageshack.us/my.php?image=c1399864bf.jpg) http://img365.imageshack.us/img365/935/afurika1cj.th.jpg (http://img365.imageshack.us/my.php?image=afurika1cj.jpg) http://img365.imageshack.us/img365/6903/g2602446nr.th.jpg (http://img365.imageshack.us/my.php?image=g2602446nr.jpg) http://img365.imageshack.us/img365/4186/g3398478bn.th.jpg (http://img365.imageshack.us/my.php?image=g3398478bn.jpg)

http://img365.imageshack.us/img365/9191/g3518755sn.th.jpg (http://img365.imageshack.us/my.php?image=g3518755sn.jpg) http://img365.imageshack.us/img365/2300/g4904225vz.th.jpg (http://img365.imageshack.us/my.php?image=g4904225vz.jpg) http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/8468/h730548hr.th.jpg (http://img70.imageshack.us/my.php?image=h730548hr.jpg) http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/5618/h972503tq.th.jpg (http://img70.imageshack.us/my.php?image=h972503tq.jpg) http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/8153/i400kankyo5gm.th.jpg (http://img70.imageshack.us/my.php?image=i400kankyo5gm.jpg)

http://img485.imageshack.us/img485/4330/i40020np.th.jpg (http://img485.imageshack.us/my.php?image=i40020np.jpg) http://img485.imageshack.us/img485/9133/i40036gi.th.jpg (http://img485.imageshack.us/my.php?image=i40036gi.jpg) http://img485.imageshack.us/img485/3396/i40048pg.th.jpg (http://img485.imageshack.us/my.php?image=i40048pg.jpg) http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/5830/i40087jc.th.jpg (http://img386.imageshack.us/my.php?image=i40087jc.jpg) http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/9553/i400940lt.th.jpg (http://img386.imageshack.us/my.php?image=i400940lt.jpg)

http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/4492/i400978xc.th.jpg (http://img386.imageshack.us/my.php?image=i400978xc.jpg) http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/2021/i400983vh.th.jpg (http://img15.imageshack.us/my.php?image=i400983vh.jpg) http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/5831/i400998lu.th.jpg (http://img15.imageshack.us/my.php?image=i400998lu.jpg) http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/633/i1429844catapult4mh.th.jpg (http://img15.imageshack.us/my.php?image=i1429844catapult4mh.jpg) http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/3057/i737rk.th.jpg (http://img15.imageshack.us/my.php?image=i737rk.jpg)

http://img376.imageshack.us/img376/4208/kairyus7hf.th.jpg (http://img376.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kairyus7hf.jpg) http://img376.imageshack.us/img376/7465/kf060239io.th.jpg (http://img376.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kf060239io.jpg) http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/215/top2es.th.jpg (http://img80.imageshack.us/my.php?image=top2es.jpg) http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/8218/y1082bw.th.jpg (http://img80.imageshack.us/my.php?image=y1082bw.jpg) http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/5019/zuikaku25aa.th.jpg (http://img80.imageshack.us/my.php?image=zuikaku25aa.jpg)

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/7296/mutumodel317bv.th.jpg (http://img80.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mutumodel317bv.jpg) http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/3966/4604515yy.th.jpg (http://img80.imageshack.us/my.php?image=4604515yy.jpg) http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/6449/mutumodel256te.th.jpg (http://img80.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mutumodel256te.jpg) http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/2115/syoukaku27cs.th.jpg (http://img81.imageshack.us/my.php?image=syoukaku27cs.jpg) http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/3554/syoukaku13gl.th.jpg (http://img80.imageshack.us/my.php?image=syoukaku13gl.jpg)

U-104
01-17-06, 06:49 PM
http://img424.imageshack.us/img424/1442/pict06842fw.jpg

How huge I-400 is!!! :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o

Torplexed
01-17-06, 09:03 PM
I was investigating the Imperial Japanese Navy, and I found out that these guys were very serious :o :o :o

Take a look at the hardware:

Well...of course they were serious. When you consider what a large and well-trained carrier force the Japanese had the IJN was arguably the most powerful fleet in the world in 1941. Especially after Pearl Harbor and the sinking of Force Z off Malaysia. Plus, they only had to concentrate their efforts on dominating one ocean.

It was trying to replace this hardware with their slender industrial base as the war wore on that eventually did them in. They simply couldn't afford to just trade losses ship-to-ship with the Allies. The "Decisive Battle" that would decide the war in one stroke in their favor kept eluding them. That and the lack of a pilot program to produce enough well-trained naval aviators to make up for the heavy attrition at Coral Sea, Midway and all the other carrier battles was ultimately the undoing of the Imperial Japanese Navy.

VON_CAPO
01-17-06, 11:31 PM
It was trying to replace this hardware with their slender industrial base as the war wore on that eventually did them in. They simply couldn't afford to just trade losses ship-to-ship with the Allies. The "Decisive Battle" that would decide the war in one stroke in their favor kept eluding them. That and the lack of a pilot program to produce enough well-trained naval aviators to make up for the heavy attrition at Coral Sea, Midway and all the other carrier battles was ultimately the undoing of the Imperial Japanese Navy.
Excellent analysis. :yep: :yep: :yep:

Torplexed
01-18-06, 04:00 AM
Yeah....but you always wonder. If they hadn't blown it at Midway. If they had used their submarines more often for commerce-raiding. Had they rotated veteran pilots from front-line duty to train recruits. If somebody had fired Nagumo early on might things be different? Probably not much different...but it is fun to speculate. ;)

Harry Buttle
01-19-06, 07:02 PM
Yeah....but you always wonder. If they hadn't blown it at Midway. If they had used their submarines more often for commerce-raiding. Had they rotated veteran pilots from front-line duty to train recruits. If somebody had fired Nagumo early on might things be different? Probably not much different...but it is fun to speculate. ;)

The Japs would have been hammered anyway - their industrial base was not in the same class as that of the allies (compare production in any category - artillery to aircraft carriers), they lacked capability in 2 crucial technical areas - radar and sonar (which meant the US sub fleet was going to destroy them anyway), they treated convoy protection with contempt, they ignored long term production, they ignored logistic reality in planning, the hatred between the army and navy meant they were unable to co-operate on operations or coordinate production of basic items.

Torplexed
01-19-06, 10:35 PM
True. With the Japanese re-visualizing history is kinda like re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic. That endless war in China also didn't help matters either. Their best option has probably not to go to war at all....and certainly not to start one with a galvanizing sneak attack. :-?

Harry Buttle
01-20-06, 07:03 PM
True. With the Japanese re-visualizing history is kinda like re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic. That endless war in China also didn't help matters either. Their best option has probably not to go to war at all....and certainly not to start one with a galvanizing sneak attack. :-?

Yep, their culture forced them into a war that they were incapable of winning (China) and then dragged them into a suicidal sideshow (the Pacific War) to support it.

Even if the US had accepted the status quo in the Pacific post Pearl Harbour (utterly unthinkable), the USSR was still going to crush Japan in 1945 to regain lost territories.

Culturally impossible, but the Japs would have best profited from declaring for the allies in 1939/40 and sending most of their fleet to the Med and a Div or two in support roles, they could have then 'secured' the DEI for the Dutch and used the resources to push for a win in China (they would have to try to stop the extremely atrocity prone IJA from committing its worst excesses), I'm not saying they'd have won - but they would have had indirect allied assistance and would have secured a lot of immediately usable resources and couldn't have lost as badly as they did.

Torplexed
01-20-06, 09:41 PM
Culturally impossible, but the Japs would have best profited from declaring for the allies in 1939/40 and sending most of their fleet to the Med and a Div or two in support roles, they could have then 'secured' the DEI for the Dutch and used the resources to push for a win in China (they would have to try to stop the extremely atrocity prone IJA from committing its worst excesses), I'm not saying they'd have won - but they would have had indirect allied assistance and would have secured a lot of immediately usable resources and couldn't have lost as badly as they did.

That does sound (with hindsight) like a promising strategy. Japan cast her lot with the Allies in WW1 and got quite a few ex-German possessions out of it. Being a Allied Power in good faith probably would have sent some badly needed cutting-edge naval technology her way as well. (Sonar, Radar) But given her status as a signatory Axis Power and her unwillingness to concede anything in China or Asia...culturally impossible like you said. Their mindset at the time just wouldn't allow for compromises or half-victories.

One other possibility that I've seen brought up before would be if Germany had knocked the Soviet Union out of Europe in 1941 and Japan had then decided on going after whatever easy pickings were left of Stalin's regime in Siberia instead of going south. Frankly I don't feel Germany's chances in the Soviet Union were much better than Japan's against the Allies. However, Germany gave it their best shot and as well as they appeared to be doing in the summer and fall of '41 the Japanese had already made up their mind to turn elsewhere. So probably a moot point. :D

Harry Buttle
01-20-06, 10:27 PM
One other possibility that I've seen brought up before would be if Germany had knocked the Soviet Union out of Europe in 1941 and Japan had then decided on going after whatever easy pickings were left of Stalin's regime in Siberia instead of going south. Frankly I don't feel Germany's chances in the Soviet Union were much better than Japan's against the Allies. However, Germany gave it their best shot and as well as they appeared to be doing in the summer and fall of '41 the Japanese had already made up their mind to turn elsewhere. So probably a moot point. :D

I think you are right there, Germany had little chance v the USSR (just comparing production of tanks is scary), the other factor is that the oil in Siberia had not been discovered at the time and Japan needed oil most of all.

Its what makes 'alternate war plans' so difficult for Japan - they had few options available to them and their culture closed the better options to them, so they were forced onto a very bad one way path.

Godalmighty83
01-21-06, 01:21 PM
in a round about kind of way japan lost its war when the US utilized adapted UK radar technology.

they just didnt know that they had lost.

Torplexed
01-21-06, 06:43 PM
The striking thing about the IJN and the Japanese military in general when you look back on it was their slavish mania for the offensive at the expense of defense. Everything was geared for the attack. They had destroyers and cruisers trained to a razor's edge for night surface attack with torpedoes and then guns. But they had virtually no training for ASW and woefully insufficent AA arament. They had as their primary fighter the Zero and the Betty as their primary naval strike plane. Both traded durability and protection for range and striking distance. Even in the vital carrier task forces ships sailed too far apart to properly support each with AA fire and fighter pilots on escort missions often peeled off to chase after planes before their charges reached their targets leaving them defenseless. The submarine fleet was trained to see itself as an extension of the Battle Fleet and to go after capital ships and to regard merchants as less than honorable prey. Even though they had the finest torpedo in the world at the time. As in the one case noted in the post above you even had subs equipped with attack planes.

That epitome of last ditch weapons, the Kamikaze was offensive in nature. Their last remaining operational battleship, the Yamato was sent in on a hopeless "attack" run.

This extended even to the army with suicidal banzai charges when digging in and holding ground would have bought more time. However, the Japnese Army certainly showed in New Guinea, Iwo Jima, and Palau it could be quite tenacious in defense when it wanted too.

Just shows what a lack of balance can do. :88)

Takeda Shingen
01-21-06, 06:52 PM
The striking thing about the IJN and the Japanese military in general when you look back on it was their slavish mania for the offensive at the expense of defense. Everything was geared for the attack. They had destroyers and cruisers trained to a razor's edge for night surface attack with torpedoes and then guns. But they had virtually no training for ASW and woefully insufficent AA arament. They had as their primary fighter the Zero and the Betty as their primary naval strike plane. Both traded durability and protection for range and striking distance. Even in the vital carrier task forces ships sailed too far apart to properly support each with AA fire and fighter pilots on escort missions often peeled off to chase after planes before their charges reached their targets leaving them defenseless. The submarine fleet was trained to see itself as an extension of the Battle Fleet and to go after capital ships and to regard merchants as less than honorable prey. Even though they had the finest torpedo in the world at the time. As in the one case noted in the post above you even had subs equipped with attack planes.

That epitome of last ditch weapons, the Kamikaze was offensive in nature. Their last remaining operational battleship, the Yamato was sent in on a hopeless "attack" run.

This extended even to the army with suicidal banzai charges when digging in and holding ground would have bought more time. However, the Japnese Army certainly showed in New Guinea, Iwo Jima, and Palau it could be quite tenacious in defense when it wanted too.

Just shows what a lack of balance can do. :88)

Good summary. Somebody knows his Pacific war.

Torplexed
01-21-06, 06:57 PM
Thanks Tak! I lived in Okinawa for a few years as an Air Force brat. I think something stuck. :lol:

Harry Buttle
01-22-06, 05:49 AM
But they had virtually no training for ASW and woefully insufficent AA arament.

You may have read it, but if you haven't , "The Japanese Merchant Marine in WW2" by Mark Parillo is a stunning read - it is full of "You have got to be kidding, they CAN'T have been that stupid" moments.

it pops up on Amazon.com and is well worth getting hold of.

Torplexed
01-22-06, 01:05 PM
But they had virtually no training for ASW and woefully insufficent AA arament.

You may have read it, but if you haven't , "The Japanese Merchant Marine in WW2" by Mark Parillo is a stunning read - it is full of "You have got to be kidding, they CAN'T have been that stupid" moments.

it pops up on Amazon.com and is well worth getting hold of.

I've haven't got that one. It does sound like an interesting read. If I recall correctly the Japanese would often send merchant ships south into the Southern Resource Area filled with troops or supplies. Then they would return... empty! An incredible waste of shipping for a maritime nation already strapped for such. Sounds like Parillo found even more bloopers in the shipping department.

Harry Buttle
01-22-06, 06:09 PM
I've haven't got that one. It does sound like an interesting read. If I recall correctly the Japanese would often send merchant ships south into the Southern Resource Area filled with troops or supplies. Then they would return... empty! An incredible waste of shipping for a maritime nation already strapped for such. Sounds like Parillo found even more bloopers in the shipping department.

Oh yes, you think of anything wrong you could do in the shipping, convoy, convoy protection, ship production or planning areas and the Japs did it.

re your example above, yes they would return empty and pass an empty convoy going in the other direction to pick up resources, then throw in the fact that the IJA and IJN ran independent supply systems so that sort of waste was happening twice.

Parillo also goes into the production of ships and the requisitioning of ships from the civilian sector, as well as the spiteful approach of both the IJA and the IJN to drafting civilians that were working in vital support areas for the other service.