Saint Cindy demands US end occupation of New Orleans

[Torpedo Fodder]

Sheehan's Blog (www.huffingtonpost.com/cindy-sheehan/a-bright-spot-in-bush-wor_b_7433.html)

"George Bush needs to stop talking, admit the mistakes of his all around failed administration, pull our troops out of occupied New Orleans and Iraq, and excuse his self from power."

If there was ANY doubt before that this woman is a complete headcase, there isn't now. Your 15 minutes of fame are up Cindy, it's time to stop attention whoring and MoveOn with your life.

[Type941]

Torpedo Fodder, she being a mother who lost a child in iraq - may be it's better not to say anything at all, than call her a headcase.

Democrats and extreme left are using her, they shoud be a focus of any rants. She has a right to her opinion, but again and again in the US it seems that someone who dares to criticise Bush is a headcase.

[Torpedo Fodder]

Torpedo Fodder, she being a mother who lost a child in iraq - may be it's better not to say anything at all, than call her a headcase.

I'm sorry, but anyone who calls the presence of US troops in New Orleans an 'occupation' and demands their withdrawal is hard to describe as anything but a headcase. Remember that Sheehan also earlier suggested that the US orcistrated the Iraq war on behalf of Israel.

[Type941]

Full paragraph so you read it in context.

t is a Christ-like principle to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and shelter the homeless. That's what is happening in Algiers and other places in Louisiana...but by the people of America, not the so-called "Christians" in charge. If George Bush truly listened to God and read the words of the Christ, Iraq and the devastation in New Orleans would have never happened.
I don't care if a human being is black, brown, white, yellow or pink. I don't care if a human being is Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, or pagan. I don't care what flag a person salutes: if a human being is hungry, then it is up to another human being to feed him/her. George Bush needs to stop talking, admit the mistakes of his all around failed administration, pull our troops out of occupied New Orleans and Iraq, and excuse his self from power. The only way America will become more secure is if we have a new administration that cares about Americans even if they don't fall into the top two percent of the wealthiest.

[CCIP]

Torpedo Fodder, she being a mother who lost a child in iraq - may be it's better not to say anything at all, than call her a headcase.

Exactly. I'd like to know what mr. Bush lost here, other than his credibility :roll:

That said, even I'm not naive enough to assume that Bush would or should do something like that; I don't think the political instability would do anyone any good. Besides, it's all-too-obvious to me that the cause of the problem here is NOT Bush personally, but the conservative agenda. Great, now we'd have a right that's not only stupid, but pissed-off (like we don't have enough of that going on to the left of this already) :roll:

[Torpedo Fodder]

Full paragraph so you read it in context.

How does that change the fact that she's demanding the withdrawal of US troops from NO? Why are you so convieniently ignoring that? I have no respect for her at all. Criticizing Bush is one thing, but Sheehans' act is nothing more than attention whoring. She had no desire to do this until MoveOn offered to fund her. Before that, her description about her first meeting with Bush was actually positive, but now she's completely reversed her opinion. If she isn't lying about that tnow, she was lying then.

[CCIP]

I don't get why the troops are STILL there in the first place. To me that's very indicative of a very fundamental failure on the part of the civil society, but... whatever :roll:

[August]

[She had no desire to do this until MoveOn offered to fund her.

I wonder if she realized by signing that contract that she was now making money off the death of her son...

[Abraham]

Thanks for the info, Torpedo Fodder.
She's a mother who lost a son in a far away place, serving his country, like about 1.500 others in the U.S. and hundreds in Great Britain, Australia, Italy, Poland, Holland, Korea and so on.
Most of those mothers behaved with dignity but she wanted her 15 minutes of glory and she was smart enough to use her sons death for political reasons and capitalise on it and not just politically (I mean really making money!) without asking his permission first!
Well, her opinion really clears things up after hurricane Kathrina:
If Bush doesn't send the National Guard in immediately - which he is not allowed without the Govenors request - he is at fault;
If Bush does not withdraw the National Guard immediately - without the request of the Govenor - he's occupying New Orleans.
:rotfl:
A classic case of: head up, I win, head down, you lose...

I can't believe my very eyes and checked it again.
Yes, there it is, on the end of her message:
Bush is occupying New Orleans and Cindy wants him the withdraw (and to withdraw from office, for that matter).
Disgusting, nuts, fake, crazy, lunatic, anti-semitic, certifiable for 100%... are words that come to my mind.
Poor woman...
:down:

[bradclark1]

I don't get why the troops are STILL there in the first place. To me that's very indicative of a very fundamental failure on the part of the civil society, but... whatever :roll:

Because if he pulled the Federal troops out the media, naacp, and every other person would raise hell saying he's doing it too early.
IMO they are where they need to be until the govenor and mayor say they don't need them anymore.
As far as Sheehan I think she is beginning to be manipulated by MoveOn and whatever other orginization has their thumb in the pie so cut her some slack.

[Type941]

Full paragraph so you read it in context.

How does that change the fact that she's demanding the withdrawal of US troops from NO?

I just posted the whole paragraph because it's better to see the qoute from the passage in context, rather than just a single qoute. No undercontext. :roll:

There are many people in the world who think this war was illegal and fought for the wrong reasons, so deal with it. Calling someone for that a nutcase shows the level of dialogue one is allowed to have in the US these days. I've heard a term AA many times lately (Anti American) but beware of another group - that of American Nationalist - who attack with such vengence those who dare to say anything bad about Bush - because it's not patriotic!!!

When anyone with a brain knows that just by expressing an view that's different to that of an official administration doesn't make you unpatriotic.

[Abraham]

I don't get why the troops are STILL there in the first place. To me that's very indicative of a very fundamental failure on the part of the civil society, but... whatever :roll:

Because if he pulled the Federal troops out the media, naacp, and every other person would raise hell saying he's doing it too early.
IMO they are where they need to be until the govenor and mayor say they don't need them anymore.
As far as Sheehan I think she is beginning to be manipulated by MoveOn and whatever other orginization has their thumb in the pie so cut her some slack.
I guess you're right on target.
:up:

[caspofungin]

Full paragraph so you read it in context.

I have no respect for her at all.

If you listen to GW, her son died to preserve her ability, her right, to speak freely. She's doing what she believes is right -- just because her opinion doen't coincide with your doesn't make her crazy -- or anti-semitic? where'd that come from?

[August]

Full paragraph so you read it in context.

I have no respect for her at all.

If you listen to GW, her son died to preserve her ability, her right, to speak freely. She's doing what she believes is right -- just because her opinion doen't coincide with your doesn't make her crazy -- or anti-semitic? where'd that come from?

She's doing more than exercising her right to free speech. She's making money off the death of her son. While certainly not illegal it is kinda revealing don't you think?

[caspofungin]

there's plenty of people making money off the war in iraq specifically, and the war on terror in general.

making money off the death of your own son vs making money off the death of other people's sons -- which is worse?

[August]

there's plenty of people making money off the war in iraq specifically, and the war on terror in general.

making money off the death of your own son vs making money off the death of other people's sons -- which is worse?

Who exactly is making money, directly, off the death of people sons?

[Torpedo Fodder]

Who exactly is making money, directly, off the death of people sons?

Sheehan certainly is: Remember that MoveOn.org are the ones funding her crusade, which she did not start until after they offered to finance her.

As for Sheehan being a headcase, consider that even before the "occupation of New Orleans" bit, she had opined that the war was fought on the behest of Israel, and that the US was waging a "nuclear war" in Iraq through the use of depleted uranium munitions.

[caspofungin]

1. she's misinformed, that's different from crazy.

2. re making money off the war -- not meaning it in any malicious sense, but there are plenty of businesses making a buck either by supplying the military, with equipment or services, or in the reconstruction arena. plus, the oil fields aren't exactly nationalized.

[Takeda Shingen]

Ms. Sheehan's rhetoric falls in the same category as that of John Horvath. That is, it remains so ridiculously off-base as to warrant no serious attention.

Regarding criticism of parents such as Ms. Sheehan: Personal loss does in no way guarantee the right to spout blatent falsities without fear of rebuttal. Sympathy always remains present for void in a life, but a foul is still a foul.

[caspofungin]

@takeda

you're right re Sheehan.

the right to spout blatent falsities without fear of rebuttal -- there's a lot of politicians and media groups on *both* sides of the Iraq war debate that take that right for granted, though.

[Takeda Shingen]

there's a lot of politicians and media groups on *both* sides of the Iraq war debate that take that right for granted, though.

No doubt. What the US needs right now is a healthy dose of third-party politics. That, and to get Barbara Walters and Rush Limbaugh in a room together in hopes that they kill each other off. The world is not so black and white. (No racial overtone intended)

[Type941]

there's plenty of people making money off the war in iraq specifically, and the war on terror in general.

making money off the death of your own son vs making money off the death of other people's sons -- which is worse?

Who exactly is making money, directly, off the death of people sons?


Eh.. Halliburton, Shell, etc, etc, all those getting the contracts in Iraq to rebuild and pump oil. helooo!

The whole administration has been making money on Iraq's oil every since the invasion. While certainly there are no conrete facts to prove this, I'd like you to prove the opposite. I see no way in which you can say that this administration and the companies that are related to it did not benefit from the war.

[mog]

Full paragraph so you read it in context.

I have no respect for her at all.

If you listen to GW, her son died to preserve her ability, her right, to speak freely. She's doing what she believes is right -- just because her opinion doen't coincide with your doesn't make her crazy -- or anti-semitic? where'd that come from?

No one is disputing her right to say what she is saying. It is simply being pointed out that most of what she is saying is demonstrably idiotic. She is clearly a very ignorant and naive woman being controlled by extreme left organisations who are trying to capitalise on her son's death.

[August]

Eh.. Halliburton, Shell, etc, etc, all those getting the contracts in Iraq to rebuild and pump oil. helooo!

The whole administration has been making money on Iraq's oil every since the invasion. While certainly there are no conrete facts to prove this, I'd like you to prove the opposite. I see no way in which you can say that this administration and the companies that are related to it did not benefit from the war.

Where i come from the burden of proof lies upon the accuser, not the accused. If you can't prove a postive then you have no right to arrogantly demand that anyone prove a negative.

Meanwhile you ignore a mother using her dead son to make money, espousing a "cause" he would neither believe in nor accept.

[Iceman]

I saw soldiers walking around in patrols of 7 with their weapons slung on their backs. I wanted to ask one of them what it would take for one of them to shoot me. Sand bags were removed from private property to make machine gun nests.



:rotfl: I wanted to ask one of them what it would take for one of them to shoot me <.....LMAO :rotfl: ...and what else are soldiers supposed to do...they dig fox holes and make machine gun nests.

They are peacekeepers not garbage men...not oil clean up men....not grocery men....not housing construction...they are the strong arm.

Occupying...lol...we only occupy places that have oil for us to steal cause we are greedy Americans and that's what we do.

[Abraham]

Full paragraph so you read it in context.

I have no respect for her at all.

If you listen to GW, her son died to preserve her ability, her right, to speak freely. She's doing what she believes is right -- just because her opinion doen't coincide with your doesn't make her crazy -- or anti-semitic? where'd that come from?
That's what I said: "crazy" and "antisemitic".
I am sorry for her son, but since she decided to step into the public arena, attack the President and U.S. policies, we are free to criticize her opinion and her behaviour.
I standfor all the bad things I've said about herDisgusting, nuts, fake, crazy, lunatic, anti-semitic, certifiable for 100%... are words that come to my mind.
Poor woman...
:down:
Yes, I think somebody who claimsGeorge Bush needs to stop talking, admit the mistakes of his all around failed administration, pull our troops out of occupied New Orleans and Iraq, and excuse his self from power.is crazy, and saying - I don't have the quote but heard it repeatedly - that the U.S. is fighting the Iraq war for Israel smells like Nazi propaganda (The Allies were fighting WW II for International Jewry, remember?) and Islamo-fascism (The Israeli's organised 9/11, 3/11, 7/7, Beslan and what not).

[Skybird]

"George Bush needs to stop talking, admit the mistakes of his all around failed administration, pull our troops out of occupied New Orleans and Iraq, and excuse his self from power."

With the exception of NO beeing an occupied zone I find her demands both reasonable and most honourful. Obviously she has learned the lesson about the event's under Bush's rulership. and NO: just wild guessing, but after having lost a son a mother may be excused from reacting a bit allergic to the sight of troops in towns inside her own country. It could be a simple human flaw, a psychological misstep,, the message of it simply is : pull out troops of NO and occupied Iraq. I also wouldn't read too much into this detail. And even if she said and meant it, her basic attitude still finds my respect and acceptance. Bush has messed up much more severe things and has radioed plenty of more idiotic word games millions of Americnas have taken as the third testament, and he is rightfully attacked by her for that. She reminds her nation that things were not as perfect as most residents prefer to see in recent years, that'S why she is hated so much.

BTW, she also finds plenty of support in American's opinion. This kind of audience just has not such a big lobby in this forum here.

As one reader in the comments section of her blog wrote: "I agree! We must pull our troops out of New Orleans as soon as possible and address the root causes of poverty. We must ask ourselves, why do they hate us?". - But America keeps on thinking it is below it's honour to ask the latter question, and cleans any critizism off the table by simply labelling such critizism as greed and envy on the american way of life. Continuing to walk in complete ignorrance and blindness, as recently seen during the UN summit where it enforced more than 750 changes to the original resolution and made sure that nothing, really nothing was left of the original idea to strengthen the UN; and at the same time and location trying to play the emotional card again by endlessly talking about war on terror and ignorring that it'S own behavior has motivated more men than ever before to join the leagues of terror, it hits and strucks at everyone it does not like and then wonders "Why do they hate us so much? Why do they look down on us?". That's why it is triggering "unexpected" (I say: to-be-expected) hostile reactions time and again. Cindy S. is reminding her countrymen of the flaws in their own system and indirectly tells them that their inner deficits as well as their international behavior may have something to do with the lacking respect for the US.

[August]

Wow Skybird agrees with Cindy Sheehan, now there's a suprise...

[Abraham]

... just wild guessing, but after having lost a son a mother may be excused from reacting a bit allergic to the sight of troops in towns inside her own country. It could be a simple human flaw, a psychological misstep, it even could be a misquote, the message of it simply is : pull out troops of NO and occupied Iraq.Don't try to excuse her, it's her own quote on her own site and she leaves it there. And why is she allegric to US troops in towns in her own country? Her son himself was a professional soldier! If Bush wouls recall US troops from Iraq she might even see more US troops in her own country...
I find her demands both reasonable and most honourful.I don't have to get into exploiting your own sons death for political reasons, buas far as her argument is concerned; everybody (except hardcore AAs) agrees that the immediate withdrawl of US troops out of Iraq would bemost shameful towards the Iraqi's and the U.S. coalition partners and would reflect extremely negative upon the position of the U.S. in international politics. Running away from a battlefield during a fight is also contrary to the American mentality.
Am I glad we have a different line of reasoning and a different sense of honour...

[Type941]

[quote=Type941]
Where i come from the burden of proof lies upon the accuser, not the accused. If you can't prove a postive then you have no right to arrogantly demand that anyone prove a negative.

What a load of crap. Are you serious?

Ok, let's say I saw Michael Moore's 'documentary' (MMoore imho is a dispeakable guy who wants nothing good for America and is dangerous because all he wants is a war with Saudies, imho) - and the hidden camera on the dinner of the powerful businees people looked convinving enough when from Bill Gates to others lesser known they kept gloating about how rich they will be. To me that looked awful.

So prove me now all of the never took place. You can't that's the thing, and all you'll keep doing is coming up with stuff like :
" If you can't prove a postive then you have no right to arrogantly demand that anyone prove a negative.". Who said this?? WHo said you can't demand to prove a negative. Guy, give me a break. This isn't some moot court competition.
:stare:

[Skybird]

Don't try to excuse her, it's her own quote on her own site and she leaves it there. And why is she allegric to US troops in towns in her own country? Her son himself was a professional soldier! If Bush wouls recall US troops from Iraq she might even see more US troops in her own country...

Thanks for illustrating your lack of psychological insight and emotional compassion for human beeings all by yourself. Frees me from the need of writing another long essay about just this.

If my "son" (have none) would join the military against my wish and would be send into a war about lies and would get killed because of more lies - I probably would not have too good and friendly memories on my mind when seeing military flooding the streets of a local desaster area where the misery would have been less if there would have been more mandatory civil help service earlier and lesser military afterwards. she also might draw conclusions about her country's mentality when seeing the poverty, and even more: the civil violance on display. If america would really be like it richer ones claims to be, NO would not have happened to become that worse. A better national help service and a more mandatory social basic attitude would result in better and faster helping results, and a better social climate to live in would result in lesser violance in the streets (no matter if there is a desaster or not, it's also true towards the high crime rate, and the weapon fetishism). Katrina ripped off a mask, and especially here in Europe many conservative people took notice with much irritation. It was not what they expected to see. I linked to a comment on the stunned-by-surprise reactions especially in some easteuropean countries some days ago. What was written by that commentator about Hungary I have heared from a friend in Poland as well.

[Skybird]

And since people go wild here about that quote of her, let'S give some more balance to the discussion, by remembering another quote ion that blog:

I was told that Pat Boone was on a conservative radio talk show in San Francisco (yes they do exist) with Melanie Morgan (who has a vendetta against me) and he told the listeners that after we "stole the supplies" from the Red Cross, we gave them to the "enemies of America who are like the people who want to fly airplanes into our buildings." Boone says that we were giving them to enemies of America, because we were distributing the supplies from a Mosque. First of all, accusing me of stealing is slander, I think, and second of all: we were helping Americans. Just because their government abandoned them, we shouldn't feed them and give them medicine and supplies? I thought Pat Boone was supposed to be a Christian man? Thirdly, isn't Freedom of Religion one of our Constitutional guarantees?

Noone complaining about this radio talk?

then maybe this? :

I saw in the paper that George Bush said the recovery in the Gulf States would be "hard work." That's what he said about sending troops to Iraq and looking at the casualty reports everyday: "It's hard work." That man has never known a day of hard work in his life. The people on the ground in Covington scoffed at George's little junket to Louisiana yesterday. He stayed in the French Quarter and a Ward that weren't even damaged a bit. The VFP took me to the city of Algiers on the West Bank. The part of Algiers we went to was very poor and black. The people of Algiers know what hard work is.


And near the end, she concluded like this:

It is a Christ-like principle to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and shelter the homeless. That's what is happening in Algiers and other places in Louisiana...but by the people of America, not the so-called "Christians" in charge. If George Bush truly listened to God and read the words of the Christ, Iraq and the devastation in New Orleans would have never happened.


Hard to disagree with that.

[Abraham]

Thanks for illustrating your lack of psychological insight and emotional compassion for human beeings all by yourself. Frees me from the need of writing another long essay about just this.Thanks for another personal attack, Mr Psychologist. I feel almost honoured...
Well, this becomes a new Kathrina thread then:If america would really be like it richer ones claims to be, NO would not have happened to become that worse... Katrina ripped off a mask, and especially here in Europe many conservative people took notice with much irritation. It was not what they expected to see.
After a few weeks the real picture emerges:
- For financial reasons (both business and tourism) the mayor of NO delayed an order for mandatory evacuation.
- Although President Bush declared a state of emergency two days behore the hurricane hit the coast on Monday, Aug. 29th the Govenor of Louisiana did not make any specific requests for Federal help until Thursday Sept. 1st (source: Time 9/19/05).
- The Fed. Emergency Management Agency responded woefully ineffective, because the reorganisations and its poorly qualified director Brown, for which Pres. Bush is finally responsible.
It was a disaster on an unheard scale of and yet - the deathtoll seems to be much lower then expected and when the National Guard started operating, order was quickly restored and an efficient rescue operation was started.
Pres. Bush has taken full political responsability in order to stop 'blame games', just as a real leader should. He alotted $ 60 Billion to help the area recover, and - knowing the American spirit a little bit - it will.
You are overtly pessimistic and critical again. Sometimes you even give the impression of barely hidden pleasure when antithing - terroritst, nature, you name it - gives you a plathform to vent your Anti Americanism which goes far beyond any constructive form of criticism.

[Abraham]

And since people go wild here about that quote of her, let'S give some more balance to the discussion, by remembering another quote ion that blog:

I was told that Pat Boone was on a conservative radio talk show in San Francisco (yes they do exist) with Melanie Morgan (who has a vendetta against me) and he told the listeners that after we "stole the supplies" from the Red Cross, we gave them to the "enemies of America who are like the people who want to fly airplanes into our buildings." Boone says that we were giving them to enemies of America, because we were distributing the supplies from a Mosque. First of all, accusing me of stealing is slander, I think, and second of all: we were helping Americans. Just because their government abandoned them, we shouldn't feed them and give them medicine and supplies? I thought Pat Boone was supposed to be a Christian man? Thirdly, isn't Freedom of Religion one of our Constitutional guarantees?

Noone complaining about this radio talk?
No, I don't, this thread is about Cindy, not about Pat Boone. I have no other sources about this argumentation then Cindy and honestly she doesn't really qualify.
But feel free to open a Pat Boone thread on this...

then maybe this? :

I saw in the paper that George Bush said the recovery in the Gulf States would be "hard work." That's what he said about sending troops to Iraq and looking at the casualty reports everyday: "It's hard work." That man has never known a day of hard work in his life. The people on the ground in Covington scoffed at George's little junket to Louisiana yesterday. He stayed in the French Quarter and a Ward that weren't even damaged a bit. The VFP took me to the city of Algiers on the West Bank. The part of Algiers we went to was very poor and black. The people of Algiers know what hard work is.
No, why should I. I told you the woman is ignorant. Stating that the President of the United States "has never known a day of hard work in his life" is either sad or funny. Perhaps she's a leftist stand-up comedian...

And near the end, she concluded like this:
It is a Christ-like principle to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and shelter the homeless. That's what is happening in Algiers and other places in Louisiana...but by the people of America, not the so-called "Christians" in charge. If George Bush truly listened to God and read the words of the Christ, Iraq and the devastation in New Orleans would have never happened.

Hard to disagree with that.
Also a NoNo.
You should know that many problems have risen from people judging about the true 'Christianity' of others.
But still If George Bush truly listened to God and read the words of the Christ, Iraq and the devastation in New Orleans would have never happened.the women does have a sense of humor!
:rotfl:

[joea]

Oh another political thread. Sunday afternoon... :zzz:

[Skybird]

What should we say then? we have election day over here! :lol:

First years I handed a voting bilett with two words instead of two crosses : "intentionally unvalid". Last time I already was in doubt if it really was worth it. This time I'm sure and let them play all alone. Schroeder and Merkel tete-a-tete - if so, it will be the happiest couple of the year :lol:

[August]

What a load of crap. Are you serious?

Ok, let's say I saw Michael Moore's 'documentary' (MMoore imho is a dispeakable guy who wants nothing good for America and is dangerous because all he wants is a war with Saudies, imho) - and the hidden camera on the dinner of the powerful businees people looked convinving enough when from Bill Gates to others lesser known they kept gloating about how rich they will be. To me that looked awful.

So prove me now all of the never took place. You can't that's the thing, and all you'll keep doing is coming up with stuff like :
" If you can't prove a postive then you have no right to arrogantly demand that anyone prove a negative.". Who said this?? WHo said you can't demand to prove a negative. Guy, give me a break. This isn't some moot court competition.
:stare:

Ok you obviously don't understand the concept of proving a negative, so let me explain it to you. Instead of picking your example, lets pick one everybody can relate to.

Say we demand that you prove to us that you don't steal candy from babies. Maybe you do, maybe you don't, but regardless, how do you prove what hasn't happened? Should you be forced to research every instance of reported baby candy theft throughout history and provide rock solid alibies for each one? Good luck.

Do you see the point now? If you want to accuse someone of something then the burden of proof is upon you, not the person you are accusing. It has to be that way in any civilized discussion.

[Type941]

The US went to war never bothering to prove iraq had WMD. So much for your civilized world discussions. :hmm:

[Abraham]

I really do not understand what that has to do with the way we discuss on this forum.
I have never said to people that were against the Coalition invasion: "Saddam Husseins sons used to rape young women and shoot there husbands. So much for your civilized world discussions." I really don't see the argument here...
:-?

[August]

The US went to war never bothering to prove iraq had WMD. So much for your civilized world discussions. :hmm:

Hindsight is a wonderful thing ain't it? Just don't confuse that with foresight, or take it as gospel, nor believe that WMD alone was the only reason to take Saddam out.

[Type941]

yes you do. it's about the necessity to prove something, which your country on top level disregarded. You don't like that so many in the world are against this adminstration - tough, it's a fact. Many people are afraid of america because it acted like germany in the end of 30s when it told the world to sod off because they knew better what's more important for their national interests.

Your own media was afraid to hold Bush accountable becuse they didn't want to take the responsibility for losing the war in Iraq- as it happened in Vietnam. But now, look at how they are ripping into Bush after Katrina. That's how they really feel. That's how many feel about Bush, including the 'nutcase' Cindy.

[bradclark1]

Abraham wrote:
Disgusting, nuts, fake, crazy, lunatic, anti-semitic, certifiable for 100%... are words that come to my mind.
Poor woman...


Yes, I think somebody who claimsCindy Sheehan wrote:
George Bush needs to stop talking, admit the mistakes of his all around failed administration, pull our troops out of occupied New Orleans and Iraq, and excuse his self from power.
is crazy, and saying - I don't have the quote but heard it repeatedly - that the U.S. is fighting the Iraq war for Israel smells like Nazi propaganda (The Allies were fighting WW II for International Jewry, remember?) and Islamo-fascism (The Israeli's organised 9/11, 3/11, 7/7, Beslan and what not).

anti-semitic
This term is used way too much.
that the U.S. is fighting the Iraq war for Israel smells like Nazi propaganda
Get a grip. What exactly is anti-semitic about that comment and for the life of me I can't see where it "smells like nazi propaganda".

[August]

yes you do. it's about the necessity to prove something, which your country on top level disregarded.[quote]

Prove what and to who? You? Sorry our President takes an oath to serve the people of the US, not a bunch of nosey foreigners.

[quote]You don't like that so many in the world are against this adminstration - tough, it's a fact. Many people are afraid of america because it acted like germany in the end of 30s when it told the world to sod off because they knew better what's more important for their national interests.

You don't like that we seem to care very little for your opinions, or for that matter your nazi comparisons. That's tough too, but guess which one of us will loose more sleep over it.

Your own media was afraid to hold Bush accountable becuse they didn't want to take the responsibility for losing the war in Iraq- as it happened in Vietnam. But now, look at how they are ripping into Bush after Katrina. That's how they really feel. That's how many feel about Bush, including the 'nutcase' Cindy.

But not a majority in this country according to the last 4 national elections in spite of the left dominated medias best efforts, including outright and deliberate fraud and forgery. But you go ahead and align yourself with the DU nutcases, Dan Rather and Cindy Sheehan if you wish, that won't change the results of our next election one way or the other.

[Type941]

yes, half your country less few hundred thousand think you are wrong, but that's irrelevant apparently. Oopsie.

Nazi comparison? Just the way you go about war - well, believe it. You bomb when you feel like it, and your sheer arrogance about the fact and so many die because of this is dispeakable. :down: :nope:

[Abraham]

Abraham wrote:
Disgusting, nuts, fake, crazy, lunatic, anti-semitic, certifiable for 100%... are words that come to my mind.
Poor woman...


Yes, I think somebody who claimsCindy Sheehan wrote:
George Bush needs to stop talking, admit the mistakes of his all around failed administration, pull our troops out of occupied New Orleans and Iraq, and excuse his self from power.
is crazy, and saying - I don't have the quote but heard it repeatedly - that the U.S. is fighting the Iraq war for Israel smells like Nazi propaganda (The Allies were fighting WW II for International Jewry, remember?) and Islamo-fascism (The Israeli's organised 9/11, 3/11, 7/7, Beslan and what not).

anti-semitic
This term is used way too much.
that the U.S. is fighting the Iraq war for Israel smells like Nazi propaganda
Get a grip. What exactly is anti-semitic about that comment and for the life of me I can't see where it "smells like nazi propaganda".
Since I used the term "anti-Semetic" I feel that it is up to me to defend it.
I agree that terms implying racism - of which anti-Semitism is a sub-species - should not be used without good reason, because they can kill any discussion by tainting the opponent.
On the other hand, we have to admit that anti-Semitism didn't capitulate on May 8th, 1945.
In our case Cindy Sheeham accused Bush of fighting the Iraq war for Israel. I have to caution thet I have not seen the real quotation, I think it was even worse, but O.K.
Anti Semitism is blaming bad accidents, policy disasters and misery in general upon Jews, Zionists or Israel, such without any factual foundation.The masters of ant-Semitism were Julius Streicher , the Nazi specialist in sexual anti-Semitism ("The Jew wants to impregnate Arian girls in order to bring our race down" and propaganda minister Joseph Goebbels, the master of political anti-Semitism ("The Jews are our misfortune").
One theme of Nazi propaganda in WWII was constantly blaming 'international Jewry' for the war. The theme was that the Allies were manipulated in fighting Germany by an conspiracy of capitalist (at that time: "plutocratic") and communist (at that time: "Bolshevik") Jews.
They think they are fighting for their own goals, but they are no more than puppets on the string of 'the conspiracy of International Jewry'.
I clearly remember seing a Nazi propaganda poster in the Resistance Museum in Amsterdam - it surely can be found on the web - displaying Roosevelt, Churchill and Stalin with their national flags and, in the dark background, a fat rich Jew (displaying all the anti Semitic charactaristics the Nazi artists were experts in) with a cigar and big smile. The caption was: "Hinter der Feindmächte, Der Jude" (Behind the enemies, the Jew).
That poster was IMO clearly anti-Semitic.
Now:
Goebbels said that the Jews were manipulating the U.S. to fight against Germany.
Chindy Sheeham is at the least suggesting that the U.S. is fighting on behalf of Israel against Iraq.
You can cal her position an 'opinion', you can call it a 'one-liner', but it is hard to disagree that it does smell like Nazi propaganda.
Now for me it is a great good that in a free world we can rightly or wrongly criticise the U.S. and its President. However, with some forms of criticism you can find yourself in the company of gosts with black uniforms who are marching and singing songs of Jewish blood dripping from their knives and have the skull & bones symbol on their caps.
That is the moment for a little bit of selfreflection: "Didn't I go a little bit too far?"
:hmm:

[August]

yes, half your country less few hundred thousand think you are wrong, but that's irrelevant apparently. Oopsie.

Nazi comparison? Just the way you go about war - well, believe it. You bomb when you feel like it, and your sheer arrogance about the fact and so many die because of this is dispeakable. :down: :nope:

Believe it? Really? We have death camps? We execute entire villages because someone assasinates one of our officers? We've attacked and occupied all the countries around us, subjecting them to brutal oppression and occupation?

Gee thanks for your oh so reasoned opinion. Obviously we should listen to people like you since you obviously know more about us than we do ourselves. So Mr. Expert, tell me what you think about the following quotes made by those representing the other half of the country you mention:

"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998

"Iraq is a long way from USA but, what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face."
Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998

"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983."
Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998

"We urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S.Constitution and Laws, to take necessary actions, (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."
Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others Oct. 9, 1998

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998

"Hussein has .. chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."
Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999

"There is no doubt that ... Saddam Hussein has invigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue a pace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies."
Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL,) and others, December 5, 2001

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandated of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them."
Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."
Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction."
Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998.
We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities.
Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..."
Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002

"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force-- if necessary-- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."
Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years ... We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."
Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002

"He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do" Rep.
Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction."
Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002


"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real ..."
Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan.23.2003

[Type941]

you qouted democrats like Kerry and Kennedy. :rotfl: Sorry.

[August]

you qouted democrats like Kerry and Kennedy. :rotfl: Sorry.

Are you saying they're not Democrats? That they aren't leaders of their party?

It's obvious you have no idea what you're talking about. Just another anonymous internet troll with zero credibility trying to stir up trouble.

[Abraham]

@ August:
You show poiticians including Democrats from all sides were convinced that Iraq had or was working on a WMD program. Do you realise that means that Bush might not have lied?
You very bad boy, August!
Please never use historic sources again!
Promise?
:D

[Type941]

you qouted democrats like Kerry and Kennedy. :rotfl: Sorry.

Are you saying they're not Democrats? That they aren't leaders of their party?


Wow, and eglish if your first language? :)

Anyone know that Kennedy is a nobody in politics in the US (though at least he's consitent, but he's a joke) and Kerry - well... Comon man, he couldn't beat BUSH! That guy changes positions every single day.. :rotfl: Stop this patronising bullsh*t August, you really are not in any position to call people trolls just because they have an opinion that's differnt to yours. :-j

[Abraham]

Anyone know that Kennedy is a nobody in politics in the US (though at least he's consitent, but he's a joke) and Kerry - well... Comon man, he couldn't beat BUSH! That guy changes positions every single day.. Stop this patronising bullsh*t August, you really are not in any position to call people trolls just because they have an opinion that's differnt to yours. :-j
@ Type941:
I find your attack on August a little personal, a little rude and your line of reasoning a little funny.
After all, August also mentioned Bill Clinton, Al Gore, Bob Graham, Madeleine Albright, Hillary Clinton (oops) - apart from Kennedy and Kerry.
Seems to be quite a list of Democrats convinced that Saddam was one way or the other working on WMD's.
Do you mean all major Democrats are nobodies? After all none could beat George Bush!
:D

[August]

you qouted democrats like Kerry and Kennedy. :rotfl: Sorry.

Are you saying they're not Democrats? That they aren't leaders of their party?


Wow, and eglish if your first language? :)

Anyone know that Kennedy is a nobody in politics in the US (though at least he's consitent, but he's a joke) and Kerry - well... Comon man, he couldn't beat BUSH! That guy changes positions every single day.. :rotfl: Stop this patronising bullsh*t August, you really are not in any position to call people trolls just because they have an opinion that's differnt to yours. :-j

Uh huh, just admit it you don't have a clue... Why don't you just stick to revisionist Russian history? You're not really any better at it but at least you don't come off sounding like a complete idiot.

[Type941]

you qouted democrats like Kerry and Kennedy. :rotfl: Sorry.

Are you saying they're not Democrats? That they aren't leaders of their party?


Wow, and eglish if your first language? :)

Anyone know that Kennedy is a nobody in politics in the US (though at least he's consitent, but he's a joke) and Kerry - well... Comon man, he couldn't beat BUSH! That guy changes positions every single day.. :rotfl: Stop this patronising bullsh*t August, you really are not in any position to call people trolls just because they have an opinion that's differnt to yours. :-j

Uh huh, just admit it you don't have a clue... Why don't you just stick to revisionist Russian history? You're not really any better at it but at least you don't come off sounding like a complete idiot.


So calling people names you don't know makes you look like a very smart person? I rest my case. :rotfl: Sorry but you are too funny sometimes August. I don't think you are a complete idiot btw. I actually enjoy reading your point of views because they are easy to fend off. :up:

Oh, and guess what, I lived in Massachusets for quite some time, so I think i can speak a little bit on Kennedy and Kerry. :roll:

[August]

So calling people names you don't know makes you look like a very smart person? I rest my case. :rotfl: Sorry but you are too funny sometimes August. I don't think you are a complete idiot btw. I actually enjoy reading your point of views because they are easy to fend off. :up:

Oh, and guess what, I lived in Massachusets for quite some time, so I think i can speak a little bit on Kennedy and Kerry. :roll:

I'm sorry you feel insulted, but i'm just calling it as it see it. Nobody in their right mind that knows anything about Massachusetts or the American government would say that "Kennedy is a nobody in politics in the US (though at least he's consitent, but he's a joke)". Nobody.

He's one of the most powerful Democrats of all time, certainly one of current ones. The man has been a US Senator since 1962. He is the senior Democrat on the Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee in the Senate. He also serves on the Judiciary Committee, where he is the senior Democrat on the Immigration Subcommittee, and the Armed Services Committee, where he is the senior Democrat on the Seapower Subcommittee. He is also a member of the Congressional Joint Economic Committee.

Then there's his family, brother to a martyred President and brother to another that would have been President, both among the most popular politicans in American history. Son of wealth and power that extends back to the beginning of the 20th century. Kennedy family tentacles are deep and extend far beyond the Bay State.

Now for someone to dismiss him as a "nobody" only shows that they do not have any clue what they are talking about.

Like i said, stick to Russian revisionist history, you're better at it.

[Type941]

Blah blah, what has Kennedy done? And I don't mean his family. :roll: I don't know what he's been doing in the 60s, but he's consitently strong anti republican, his statements are very much into Dean terretory (now is he sane?) and overall it's important what's he doing now, not 30 years ago. I didn't take any offence, if I had I'd probably call you some name as well. I think you just sunk into arrogance and patronising crap way too deep to look at other people's opinions objectively - but than again, it's trend...

His dynasty is a just what's been done in the past, but nothing in the future. There's in my view, only 1 dynasty in the US right now that's worth noting, and is much more powerful than Kennedy - that of Bush... 3 presidential terms, governors, etc. I doubt Kennedy clan can rival that. They were the darlings of america, the Kennedy's, while the Bushes are the ones with power. Democrat's power in america now is not so great, so being the most powerful democrat (which I think probably goes to the clintons and not kennedy!) is not that much of an achivement when compared to what the republicans are doing. If you just keep calling me idiot every time you complete your sentence that tells volumes about your level. Which thus far hasn't been much. None of what you said was an objective opinion, but subjective blah from someone who probably never even left the US to see what's out there in other countries. Am I wrong? I hope so!

[August]

Blah blah,

You could have saved a lot of typing because that is what your post comes down to.

[Type941]

Blah blah,

You could have saved a lot of typing because that is what your post comes down to.

but i was referring to your post!! :doh: :rotfl:

[August]

Blah blah,

You could have saved a lot of typing because that is what your post comes down to.

but i was referring to your post!! :doh: :rotfl:

Your post was nothing but babble. It doesn't really matter what you were referring to.

[Type941]

No no, you didn't understand me. When I said 'blah blah' I just referred to your previous post which was simply another rant that was patronising and condescending just because the opinion was different to yours. It was a very valid response, I don't get why you keep attacking on this issue whereas you base the offence only on your own biased opinion! :yep:

[August]

No no, you didn't understand me. When I said 'blah blah' I just referred to your previous post which was simply another rant that was patronising and condescending just because the opinion was different to yours. It was a very valid response, I don't get why you keep attacking on this issue whereas you base the offence only on your own biased opinion! :yep:

More babble.

Look, you cherry picked two people out of a fairly big list of extremely prominent Democrats, including both Clintons. You've heard of the Democrats haven't you? The ones who represent "half of the country less a few hundred thousand" as you put it?

I pointed out that you were dead wrong about Kennedy and you got all defensive about it, like you do whenever someone disagrees with you. I'm just returning your fire and i must admit i'm beginning to enjoy it.

So let's get this straight once and for all, since i'm sure our exchange is boring the rest of the people reading it. Saying what you did about Kennedy shows that you have absolutely no clue how the US government works. If you want to keep digging yourself into a hole i'll be happy to keep shovelling dirt in on top of you.

[August]

Anyone know that Kennedy is a nobody in politics in the US (though at least he's consitent, but he's a joke) and Kerry - well... Comon man, he couldn't beat BUSH! That guy changes positions every single day.. Stop this patronising bullsh*t August, you really are not in any position to call people trolls just because they have an opinion that's differnt to yours. :-j
@ Type941:
I find your attack on August a little personal, a little rude and your line of reasoning a little funny.
After all, August also mentioned Bill Clinton, Al Gore, Bob Graham, Madeleine Albright, Hillary Clinton (oops) - apart from Kennedy and Kerry.
Seems to be quite a list of Democrats convinced that Saddam was one way or the other working on WMD's.
Do you mean all major Democrats are nobodies? After all none could beat George Bush!
:D

Of course he is Abe. Like i said in an earlier post he's not here to debate an issue but only to troll for arguments.

[Type941]

Personal? I don't even know who he is, and he's the one who calls me and idiot. I responded to him by saying I'm not impressed with his patronising tone and knowit all attitude and THAT makes ME a troll? :damn: You guys see a splinter in other's eye, while can't see a log in your own. :stare:

[Abraham]

Personal? I don't even know who he is, and he's the one who calls me and idiot. I responded to him by saying I'm not impressed with his patronising tone and knowit all attitude and THAT makes ME a troll?...
EXCUSE ME?
Did I call anybody an "idiot" here?
I am not the kind of person who gets personal and I hate rudness.
So please, Type 941, I don't care whether you - knowing me or not knowing me - call my criticism "patronising" and are iritated by my knowledge. I can imagine all that. But if you quote me, quote me! Those are the unwritten rules of the game.
If you don't I take it that you quote yourself.
:D

[August]

Personal? I don't even know who he is, and he's the one who calls me and idiot. I responded to him by saying I'm not impressed with his patronising tone and knowit all attitude and THAT makes ME a troll?...
EXCUSE ME?
Did I call anybody an "idiot" here?
I am not the kind of person who gets personal and I hate rudness.
So please, Type 941, I don't care whether you know me or you - not knowing me call critisism "patronising" and are iritated by my knowledge. I can imagine all that. But if you quote me, quote me! Those are the unwritten rules of the game.
If you don't I take it that you quote yourself.
:D

Actually Abe i think he was talking about me.

[Happy Times]

Or himself.Last time he called me a nazi.I didnt even bother to respond anymore.Im going to start posting threads about events in modern Russia,lets see what will happen :P

[Abraham]

Let's ask him, August.

@ Type 941:
Could you please enlight August & me?

o August is an idiot;
o Abraham is an idiot;
o neither August nor Abraham are idiots;
o both August & Abraham are idiots.

I don't realy want to influence your right of free choice, Type941, but if you call me an idot without coming up with some solid evidence, I may turn my sarcasme towards you! That usually upsets AAs (ask Skybird!).

[Skybird]

Is there no quarantine forum on this board for idiotic babbling like this? Get out of there, Type 941, before you catch up a brain infection. ;)

[Abraham]

Is there no quarantine forum on this board for idiotic babbling like this? Get out of there, Type 941, before you catch up a brain infection. ;)
We totally agree again, Skybird!
I just didn't dare to put it that blunt, but I knew you would have fewer inhibitions being quite personal...
:D