Singapore selects F-15T over Rafale

[Torpedo Fodder]

Singapore finally opts for F-15T

Boeing moves to final negotiations after Dassault Rafale loses out in contest to supply next-generation fighter

The long-running competition to supply Singapore’s next-generation fighter is finally over, with Boeing’s F-15T Eagle selected over Dassault’s Rafale.

The French manufacturer was told of its elimination from the contest on 6 September and promptly issued a statement announcing its defeat. Singapore then stated its defence ministry was “now in the process of seeking final clarifications and contract negotiation with Boeing”.

Dassault identified two main reasons for Singapore’s decision: the weakness of the US dollar, which it describes as “a definite handicap for the economic competitiveness of the French offer”, and the negotiating influence of “America’s power and might”.

In a shift from its previous response to South Korea’s selection of the F-15 ahead of the Rafale, Dassault says it will not challenge Singapore’s decision.

Singapore has declined to say how many F-15Ts it will acquire or when deliveries will begin. It would have preferred not to announce the platform’s selection until a firm contract was signed with Boeing, which has declined to comment on the selection. But if a final contract is not agreed, the competition could potentially be reopened and delayed further.

The Singaporean air force has previously outlined an initial requirement for eight to 12 aircraft for delivery from 2008, plus the same number of options. The aircraft will replace ageing McDonnell Douglas A-4SU Skyhawks.

The acquisition could ultimately cover more aircraft, depending on whether Lockheed Martin’s F-35 Joint Strike Fighter is delayed further. Based on past procurements – such as of Lockheed’s F-16 – Singapore typically follows initial deals with smaller batch orders.

The Rafale had long been viewed as the outsider in Singapore, which would have been launch customer for the type’s export version. Last month there were fresh indications that an F-15T selection was imminent when the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress of the potential sale.

Dassault is talking up its progress in the Singapore competition, however, saying the Rafale’s involvement in the final contest – ahead of Eurofighter’s Typhoon – shows it is a good export candidate. “The Rafale programme continues and we have other prospects,” says the company.

[Kapitan]

the F15 has a good reputation i think thats what swung it that and its battle tested

a good choice but personaly id rather by the newer rafel

[Torpedo Fodder]

At least Dassault is not being an overly sore loser this time around. I recall they threatened to sue South Korea when they selected the F-15 over the Rafale.

[Hellcat]

The type of aircraft is not as important as its intended use, from my POV they have made a wise decision by purchasing a tried and testrf all weather multipurpose intercepter over the relatively smaller scope Rafale. Now I dont have my books right now in front of me, but I' m 90% certain that the F15 has much greater bang for the buck. Also on a side note, the F15 is a much better looking plane. :sunny:

[Torpedo Fodder]

The type of aircraft is not as important as its intended use, from my POV they have made a wise decision by purchasing a tried and testrf all weather multipurpose intercepter over the relatively smaller scope Rafale. Now I dont have my books right now in front of me, but I' m 90% certain that the F15 has much greater bang for the buck. Also on a side note, the F15 is a much better looking plane. :sunny:

Cost is also a major issue. The Rafale's pricetage exceeds $50 million per unit, compared to under $40 million for the F-15. The Eurofighter (which costs about $60 million) was also in this competition, but was eliminated 5 months ago. I don't expect much export success for either of these aircraft because of their price, especially the Eurfighter, which is the world's most expensive production fighter next to the F-22 ($100-120 million). However, few in the US government or Lockheed deny that the export opportunities for the F-22 are almost nonexistant.

[Kapitan]

now compare to a mig 29 which is about $25 million a unit battle tested and can compeate against the F15 (new ones that is)

it lacks technology which is a downfall but its more monoverable than the F16 and with the helmet mounted sight the pilot can select a target just by looking at it.

id have the F15 for its tech Mig 29 for its looks and a saab grippen for interceptor

[Abraham]

The Rafale must be a remarkable aircraft. The Dutch thoroughly checked out the JSF, Eurofighter, Rafale and Griffen and the Rafale came second after the JSF - to the surprise of many.
Of course much depends upon the requirements of the countries involved in a fighter selection proces.

[PeriscopeDepth]

It would make more sense for the Euros to develop ONE fighter aircraft jointly. MUCH less expensive because several Euro AFs would be purchasing it right off the bat. And Rafael and Eurofighter wouldn't be competing against each other and driving the costs higher.

And I don't think the Euros were offering anything similar to JDAM either, but I may be wrong?

[Kapitan]

eurofighter is jointly made by the europeans hence the name eurofighter

britian france germany italy and holland i think were the countrys that make it

[XabbaRus]

Spain is the other eurofighter partner.

Eurofighter was discounted not due to capabilities but lack of confidence if Singapore would get them in time due to priority going to the partner nations.

If I had had a choice I would have gone for the Rafale. F-15 may still be good but it is getting old.

JSF is overrated....stealth has been over hyped and reduces weapons carriage, if you want more you have to hang them on the wings and bang goes your stealth.

At Leuchars airshow I was talking to an RAF pilot who flies the Eurofighter Typhoon and he was very very happy with it, and I don't think this was just talk...we had quite a discussion and it seems a lot of what is said in the press is just BS by people who don't know better.

[Kapitan]

BS sells things but i can agree with xabbarus here

[SUBMAN1]

The type of aircraft is not as important as its intended use, from my POV they have made a wise decision by purchasing a tried and testrf all weather multipurpose intercepter over the relatively smaller scope Rafale. Now I dont have my books right now in front of me, but I' m 90% certain that the F15 has much greater bang for the buck. Also on a side note, the F15 is a much better looking plane. :sunny:

Cost is also a major issue. The Rafale's pricetage exceeds $50 million per unit, compared to under $40 million for the F-15. The Eurofighter (which costs about $60 million) was also in this competition, but was eliminated 5 months ago. I don't expect much export success for either of these aircraft because of their price, especially the Eurfighter, which is the world's most expensive production fighter next to the F-22 ($100-120 million). However, few in the US government or Lockheed deny that the export opportunities for the F-22 are almost nonexistant.

I don't think America ever had any intention of exporting F-22. I'm almost conviced they want it to be a US only fighter.

-S

[SUBMAN1]

now compare to a mig 29 which is about $25 million a unit battle tested and can compeate against the F15 (new ones that is)

it lacks technology which is a downfall but its more monoverable than the F16 and with the helmet mounted sight the pilot can select a target just by looking at it.

id have the F15 for its tech Mig 29 for its looks and a saab grippen for interceptor

The two major faults with MiG-29 and SAAB Gripen is range. This may have a lot to do with it. F-15 is a big plane and carries a lot of fuel.

-S

[SUBMAN1]

Spain is the other eurofighter partner.

Eurofighter was discounted not due to capabilities but lack of confidence if Singapore would get them in time due to priority going to the partner nations.

If I had had a choice I would have gone for the Rafale. F-15 may still be good but it is getting old.

JSF is overrated....stealth has been over hyped and reduces weapons carriage, if you want more you have to hang them on the wings and bang goes your stealth.

At Leuchars airshow I was talking to an RAF pilot who flies the Eurofighter Typhoon and he was very very happy with it, and I don't think this was just talk...we had quite a discussion and it seems a lot of what is said in the press is just BS by people who don't know better.

Stealth will be a requirement in the future. Future Russian and American SAM system simply will not miss anymore. Stealth will be the only way into a threat area and back out again. Those that don't have it, are simply dead.

One big fault of US policy in arms procurement right now is the lack of funding for ECM systems. There simply isn't much research going on in this department and newer Russian and American SAM systems just burn right through what is currently operational. Our EF-111 is gone as well. I'm wondering exactly who is smoking the crack to retire these types of systems and to do it without a replacement?

Anyway, as always, just my 2 cents.

-S

PS. WHen ground based lasers become operational, Stealth again will be the only way in and out.

[Type941]

Ah, put them all in MIGs I say. :rotfl: :rock: :arrgh!: Actually it would probably cost 1/10th of the price. :hmm:

[Abraham]

eurofighter is jointly made by the europeans hence the name eurofighter

britian france germany italy and holland i think were the countrys that make it
Count Holland out please. We'll make a quantum leap and go for something better* five to ten years from now. Till that moment our air force is quite satisfied with those nice updated F-16 beauties...
:D


* JFS (wait and don't see!)

[Torpedo Fodder]

The two major faults with MiG-29 and SAAB Gripen is range. This may have a lot to do with it. F-15 is a big plane and carries a lot of fuel.

Both are also inferior overall in air-to-air combat to the F-15. Effectiveness in BVR makes up a huge chunk of overall ATA capability, and the F-15 has much more capability in this area, including a much more powerful radar, more endurance, and greater thrust-to-weight ratio. The MiG-29 and Grippen are anougalous to the F-16 in most regards (including pricetag), not the F-15. The Russians' F-15 equivilents are the Su-27/Su-30 series, and it's telling that the latest models of these aircraft are just as expensive as late model F-15s.

One other item to remember about Singapore's requirements is that they were looking for an aircraft with "ground pounding" capability, because these aircraft are replacing the ancient A-4s Singapore is using now for that role. The F-15T is essentially an upgraded F-15E Strike Eagle, and thus is outstanding in that area. The Rafale is good for this as well, but it simply lacks the payload and range of the F-15. The Eurofighter right now essentially has no ground attack capabilitity, because of the "Tranched" capability implementation schedule, and it's full capabilities won't be available until 2010.

[PeriscopeDepth]

eurofighter is jointly made by the europeans hence the name eurofighter

britian france germany italy and holland i think were the countrys that make it

What I'm saying is a French fighter should not be competing in sales.

[TLAM Strike]

eurofighter is jointly made by the europeans hence the name eurofighter

britian france germany italy and holland i think were the countrys that make it

What I'm saying is a French fighter should not be competing in sales.

Capitalism, deal with it. :lol:

[PeriscopeDepth]

eurofighter is jointly made by the europeans hence the name eurofighter

britian france germany italy and holland i think were the countrys that make it

What I'm saying is a French fighter should not be competing in sales.

Capitalism, deal with it. :lol:

It's not really working out for them if they are loosing to an upgraded 30+ year old design, wouldn't you say?

[TLAM Strike]

eurofighter is jointly made by the europeans hence the name eurofighter

britian france germany italy and holland i think were the countrys that make it

What I'm saying is a French fighter should not be competing in sales.

Capitalism, deal with it. :lol:

It's not really working out for them if they are loosing to an upgraded 30+ year old design, wouldn't you say? That’s Capitalism in its purest form, the best product wins. Economic Darwinism.

Having two good products doubles the chances of a sale.

[PeriscopeDepth]

I understand what capitalism is TLAM.

Having two good products doubles the chances of a sale.

That is simply not correct. Are you saying that Europe is offering both the EF and the Rafael? That's flat out wrong. A group of European nations is offering the EF and France is offering the Rafael. Which means seperate development costs and less unit buys, both domestic and foreign. And they both are going to/already have loose. They are 10 years too late and tens of millions of dollars too expensive in reinventing the wheel and trying to sell it. Let alone two different versions.


The Rafale is likely to be Dassault's final go-it-alone fighter. The French manufacturer has held preliminary talks with BAE Systems regarding future tactical requirements, and more recently signed an agreement with EADS that may result in the joint development of a replacement for the Rafale, Typhoon and Saab/BAE Systems JAS 39 Gripen. Collaborative studies will determine whether the design will be a manned or unmanned platform. Dassault would be the prime contractor for a manned or unmanned combat vehicle, whereas EADS would be the prime should the parties elect to collaborate on strategic reconnaissance UAVs. http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/news/channel_awst_story.jsp?id=news/sb05_p1.xml

[XabbaRus]

France was part of the original EFA group but dropped out to go it alone.

I also think this idea of going for UCAVs is daft.

The concept that they would be throw away mass attack craft has gone and instead they are looking likely to cost as much as a fully manned fighter plane.

Talk about reinventing the wheel. Some idiot in the British govt once upon a time thought all fighting would be done by missiles, and so a load of gret world beating projects were cancelled.

Yes UAVs have their place and so do UCAVs but to replace a manned strike fighter with a UCAV is madness.

The Tornado replacement the FOA - Future Offensive Aircraft has now turned to looking at UCAVs to fulfill the requirement. Big mistake as the UCAV will end up being large enough to put a man in it just by the nature of teh range/bombload requirements.

You know what will happen then. Some bright spark will go "Hey, we can put a guy in one of those things, have aman in the loop (again) so they'll spend millions to see how to fit a cockpit and everything else with it.

[PeriscopeDepth]

Yes UAVs have their place and so do UCAVs but to replace a manned strike fighter with a UCAV is madness.

Why Xab?

I consider developing and buying a $60+ million platform for Europe to be total idiocy. There will be peace in Europe for a long time to come, if not forever. Which means you are building your armed forces around peacekeeping. A fighter bomber is overkill for that role. If you can get your UCAV for under $25 million what's the point in buying a hugely expensive fighter bomber?

And BTW, the only way that Europe will be able to beat JSF sales is marketing a cheap UCAV IMO.

[Abraham]

There will be peace in Europe for a long time to come, if not forever.
That would be good news for a change!
:up:
My only question is: does every nation agree on this? Also neighbouring states like Syria, Iran, the former Soviet republics?
At the beginning of the XXth Century people had the same thoughts, but Europe failed miserably...

[TLAM Strike]

I understand what capitalism is TLAM.

Having two good products doubles the chances of a sale.

That is simply not correct. Are you saying that Europe is offering both the EF and the Rafael? That's flat out wrong. A group of European nations is offering the EF and France is offering the Rafael. Which means seperate development costs and less unit buys, both domestic and foreign. And they both are going to/already have loose. They are 10 years too late and tens of millions of dollars too expensive in reinventing the wheel and trying to sell it. Let alone two different versions.I thought France was current part of the EF team. It would make sense to export both the EF and Rafael, no matter what the customer chooses to buy you get paid.

[Skybird]

There will be peace in Europe for a long time to come, if not forever.

???? Balkans doesn't make you rethink that statement? Or the EU wanting to share borders with the Middle East in the forseeable future (Turkey entrance)? Oil becomes short, pipeleines become priority targets for Europe is depending on them, they lead thorugh Easteuropean countries that are within range of civil unrest and violance that may emerge from countries that once belonged to the southern provinces of the USSR. If these pipelines get threatened by whatever a faction and to too much effect, then europe could be drawn into military conflicts sooner than people can imagine. And the problems on the Balkans remain. then there is russia itself. Belarus. Cyprus. Greece - Macedonia - Turkey. Northafrica, the pressure of migration patterns, and spreading of orthodox Islam. Poor nations may swtich over to desparate means.

I wouldn't take peace in Europe as granted - only as more likely than a new great war.

Currently.

[Torpedo Fodder]

It's not really working out for them if they are loosing to an upgraded 30+ year old design, wouldn't you say?

The Eurofighter was in this same competition against the Rafale and F-15, but was eliminated from the running 5 months ago. By any standard, the Rafale did better than the Eurofighter this time around since it made it all the way to the finals. Three years ago, South Korea also opted to buy F-15s, beating out competitiors that included the Eurofighter, Rafale, and Su-35.

The Eurofighter is not really faring much better than the Rafale in the export market. Last I checked, the only country outside the original consortium (Britain, Germany, Italy, Spain) to have ordered any is Austria, and they're not buying all that many.

[Kapitan]

peace in europe huh ????

thats not what i saw in bosnia in 1999 if that was peace cor i dread to think what war is :o

[PeriscopeDepth]

So you all think Europe playing a supporting role again in the next AF would be accomplished best by the EF/Rafale?

And it was Kosovo in 1999, Kapitain. Not Bosnia.

[Abraham]

There will be peace in Europe for a long time to come, if not forever.

???? Balkans doesn't make you rethink that statement? Or the EU wanting to share borders with the Middle East in the forseeable future (Turkey entrance)?We agree again fully!
:-j
Oil becomes short, pipeleines become priority targets for Europe is depending on them, they lead thorugh Easteuropean countries that are within range of civil unrest and violance that may emerge from countries that once belonged to the southern provinces of the USSR. If these pipelines get threatened by whatever a faction and to too much effect, then europe could be drawn into military conflicts sooner than people can imagine.If the West doesn't succeed in creating peace or at least less tension in the Middle East we might be extremely dependable upon Russian oil and gas one day. And into competition with China for that.
Nice prospect...?
:-?
And the problems on the Balkans remain. then there is russia itself. Belarus. Cyprus. Greece - Macedonia - Turkey. Northafrica, the pressure of migration patterns, and spreading of orthodox Islam. Poor nations may swtich over to desparate means.We agree again fully!
:-j
Sky & I wouldn't take peace in Europe as granted - only as more likely than a major military conflict.
Currently.