China tests new ballistic missile submarine

[Kapitan]

China tests new ballistic missile submarine


By Bill Gertz
THE WASHINGTON TIMES


China's military has launched the first of a new class of ballistic missile submarines in what defense officials view as a major step forward in Beijing's strategic weapons program.
The new 094-class submarine was launched in late July and when fully operational in the next year or two will be the first submarine to carry the underwater-launched version of China's new DF-31 missile, according to defense officials.
"When fully operational, it will represent a more modern, more capable missile platform," said one official familiar with reports of the new submarine.







A second intelligence official said building submarines is a top priority of the Chinese, and the Type 094 will be "China's first truly intercontinental strategic nuclear delivery system."
The new Type 094 was spotted by U.S. intelligence agencies at the Huludao shipyard, located on the coast of Bohai Bay, some 250 miles northwest of Beijing.
The submarine is in the early stages of being outfitted and is not yet equipped with new JL-2 submarine-launched nuclear missiles.
The submarine is believed to be based largely on Russian nuclear submarine technology, the officials said.
A CIA report made public last week stated that Russia was a major supplier of technology to China's naval nuclear propulsion programs.
The launching of the new missile submarine appears ahead of schedule. A Pentagon report on Chinese military power made public in May stated that the new Chinese missile submarine would not be deployed until around 2010.
A Defense Intelligence Agency report produced in 1999 and labeled "secret" stated that the new submarine is part of a program by China of "modernizing and expanding its missile force."
"Mobile, solid-fuel missiles and a new ballistic missile submarine will improve the force's ability to survive a first strike," the report said, "while more launchers, on-board penetration aids, and possibly multiple warheads will improve its ability to penetrate missile defenses."
The DIA report stated that China is expected to field one new ballistic missile submarine by 2020.
A Chinese Embassy spokesman had no immediate comment.
In a related development, U.S. intelligence officials said the Chinese suffered a setback in their JL-2 missile program when a test flight of the JL-2 missile failed over the summer.
The JL-2 missile program was delayed by the test failure but is continuing to be developed, the officials said. China conducted tests of the JL-2 in 2002 and last year.
Richard Fisher, vice president of the Washington-based International Assessment and Strategy Center, said the launch of the new missile submarine is "an astounding development."
"The 094 has followed 093 development far more rapidly than the assessments in the annual Pentagon reports on the PLA," Mr. Fisher said, referring to the China's People's Liberation Army.
China also recently launched a new attack submarine known as the Type 093. Additionally, U.S. intelligence agencies were surprised by China's disclosure in July of a third new type of submarine known as the Yuan-class, a diesel-electric attack submarine.
"In the very near future, China will have a secure, second-strike nuclear attack capability that it will use to bolster its nuclear strategy of seeking to deter the United States from aiding Taiwan after a PLA attack," Mr. Fisher said.
Mr. Fisher said the JL-2 likely will have multiple warheads.
The new submarine will make it more difficult for the U.S. military to take part in a defense of Taiwan because of the threat of nuclear retaliation, he said.
The Pentagon has deployed a new missile defense system, but a spokesman for the Missile Defense Agency has said the current interceptor system is designed to stop a long-range North Korean missile, but not an attack from Chinese or Russian missiles.
A 1999 report by the House Select Committee on U.S. National Security and Military/Commercial Concerns with the People's Republic of China stated that the new missile submarine will likely benefit from stolen U.S. nuclear warhead designs.
The report stated that the JL-2 is expected to have a longer range than the DF-31 and that 16 JL-2s will be deployed on the new submarine.
The range of the JL-2 is estimated to be about 7,500 miles, enough "to strike targets throughout the United States," the report said.
"Instead of venturing into the open ocean to attack the United States, the Type 094-class submarines could remain near [Chinese] waters, protected by the [People's Liberation Army,] Navy and Air Force," the report said.
The new submarine will be a major improvement over China's current ballistic missile submarine known as the Xia, which is equipped with medium-range missiles.
The current Xia submarine is considered so noisy to underwater detection gear that its chances of surviving attack submarine strikes in ocean waters are limited.


oot oh looks like the USN is in for a shock again

[Type941]

:dead: What the heck are the Russians thinking, keep arming the Chinese so much, year after year... :down:

[Kapitan]

it increases thier income and plus in about 10 years when china is a 100% threat to america the kilos will be obsolete infact there getting that way very quickly now and they dont realy pose that much of a threat to any ship any more

[Type941]

China is a threat to RUSSIA! That's what I'm saying. This government seems to have gone into romance with them because the US is critizing Russia for everything. Indeed with China Russia can have more fun in foreing diplomacy, but in future? Where do you think 1+ billion chenese will demand to live? .... Right across the border. :hmm:

[Kapitan]

china doesnt stand a chance against russia right now if you notice the weapons and ships they sold the chinease can easily be destroyed shot down or wiped out they are coming up to being obsolete plus it will give russia the better hand because they know what the enamy has got and how to counter it.

they helped build the new SSBN the russians know everything about that SSBN it capibilitys ect so work it out they aint that stupid after all

[PeriscopeDepth]

china doesnt stand a chance against russia right now if you notice the weapons and ships they sold the chinease can easily be destroyed shot down or wiped out they are coming up to being obsolete plus it will give russia the better hand because they know what the enamy has got and how to counter it.

they helped build the new SSBN the russians know everything about that SSBN it capibilitys ect so work it out they aint that stupid after all

Eh? The Russians use the same stuff. And in the case of the Su-30MKKs less advanced stuff. And I'd bet the PLAAF has far higher FMC rates and gets more flight time than the RuAF.

[Type941]

I guess he implied that they only get 'customer' weapon technology, while Russia keeps the more advanced things to themselves. Which makes sense of course... I don't really want to find out though.

[Kapitan]

the thing is russia mainly supplys the bodys and china fills them same sub on the outside but toaly diffrent on the inside

dou you realy think russia will hand over front line technology to the chinease er no in any case the kilos russia has are more advanced than the ones china has take a look at the stern of a russian kilo and you will find a shrouded water jet yet on the chinease ones just a simple propellor.

russias aircraft have been updated they use MIG31 and 29 also SU42 now (not up on airforce so dont quote)

the kilos russia has supplied to china are about 5 maybe more years behind russia in terms of tech and yes there is a big diffrence between them just on the outside there isnt

[Kapitan]

thanks type941 thats exactly what i was trying to say cheers :up:

[PeriscopeDepth]

I don't doubt there is a big difference in the export Kilos. But that doesn't really concern me as if China and Russia did have a war, any naval combat that occured would be a sideshow at best. Securing the sea lanes isn't really neccessary for China to invade Russia.


But the export stuff the PLAAF gets is a different story I believe. Everything post J-11 is simply of higher quality than anything the RuAF is likely to offer up in resistance. As silly as us selling Block 60s to the UAE.

russias aircraft have been updated they use MIG31 and 29 also SU42 now (not up on airforce so dont quote)

Can you find me a source for the Su-42 being in OPERATIONAL service? I don't believe it is, and probably won't be for a while to come.

And those MiG-29s are simply not up to the task of dealing with the newer Flankers. They may or may not be wired to carry the AA-12 depending on the status of upgrades. And while the MiG-31 is a fine interceptor I don't believe they are available in sufficient numbers to matter. And that's assuming all these aircraft are operational...

[Kapitan]

the mig 31's i know are oparational most mig 29's have been upgraded and there is a huge diffrnce between a russian and chinease kilo.

china is said to be about 15 years behind russia and russia 5 years behind america china uses its own tech to equip its submarines and ships rather than rely on complicated and difficault to use and maintain forign equipment (something india has stressed in its kilo's batterys)

china has few kilos compaired to india and russia in fact china has only 8 at the moment while russia can still call up at least 15 (most in reserve) india has about 12 so i think not sure.

india also hs changed the interior of thier kilos and so has iran no one in there right mind would ever sell front like tech to a potential future enamy or even sell front line tech to any country friendly or not

the F35 JSF programme do you realy think britian is going to get the exact copy as the USAF is i dont think so

[Type941]

I believe that Russia intruduces the most advanced weapons to cerain key points in it's defence locations. Like the Pskov division is probably very well equipped as it's right on the border with EU. I reckon the same with Su42s and other things - they only deploy them in key places, and not all over. All meanwhile they keep using up the old equipment in occasional mountain area bombings on Georgia border with Chechnya - I heard it's much cheaper to use it up than to actually dismatle it in controlled environment.

Either way, after the 90s, Russia started a whole set of slow reforms and doctrine change in the military, and wants a professional army in 10 years. I suppose the navy is not the priority in this. They seem to be more concerned with mobile land units, and I feel that they neglect aviation just as well.

[Kapitan]

navy is down sizing as of 2015 it should look some thing like this:

SSBN: 12 borey class
SSGN: 8 oscar II class
SSN: 25 sevdvinsk class(also double as SSGN) + 5 akula class (last few boats)
SSK: 10 lada amur class
SSG: 12 lada amur conversions

today its like this:

SSBN: 3 typhoons, 6 Delta IV, 7 DeltaIII, 1 borey (delta III to pay off each year)
SSGN: 13 oscar, 4 Charlie (charlies to pay off end of 2005 begingin 2006
SSN: 17 Akula , 18 victor III , 4 sierra
SSK: 12 kilo , 1 lada amur (there are 12 kilos in reserve also)

fleet totals in 2005- 86 submarine
fleet totals in 2015- 72 (also note the older akula and oscars will pay off year by year down sizing more till it hits 59 boats

thats the projected consider in 1991 there was:

SSBN: 91 in total
SSGN: some 85 predicted (have to re calculate later)
SSN: 140 predicted (again re calculate later) also includes conversions
SSK 97 (recalculate later)

[TLAM Strike]

the F35 JSF programme do you realy think britian is going to get the exact copy as the USAF is i dont think so Well umm the Brits don't want a copy of the USAF's FA-35s, they have their own needs which are different that the USAF’s and their own electronics to interface with.

[Kapitan]

exactly china has diffrent needs to russia

[Type941]

Borey, sevdvinsk and lada amur - are these new boats? Never heard of them...

[TLAM Strike]

Borey is the new Russian SSN.
sevdvinsk is the new SSBN
lada/amur is the new SSK and SSG.

[Kapitan]

er no tlam

borey is the new SSBN and is in active service
sevdvinsk is the new SSN/SSGN
and lada amur is the new SSK/SSG

[Oberon]

Heh, I wonder if they'll manage to keep this one afloat? They haven't done such a good job with the Xia (s)

Still, it's always worth keeping an eye on China's military, sometimes it can be quite virulent

[Kapitan]

reportidly in 1985 china lost a xia class SSBN in the yellow sea so only one was left that and the lone elderly golf SSB which by the way is still in service with china :o

[PeriscopeDepth]

the mig 31's i know are oparational

By operational I mean 80% could go flying and fight right now if they got the call.

most mig 29's have been upgraded

I believe the SMT upgrade should have long been completed by now (whether it was and to what extent I can't find any information on). That was slated for 150 MiG-29s that were built in the last decade. And then withdraw the unmodernized ones from service, which would be a good idea.

[Type941]

er no tlam

borey is the new SSBN and is in active service
sevdvinsk is the new SSN/SSGN
and lada amur is the new SSK/SSG

You got any pics of them and info? How do they compare to american subs.

[Kapitan]

il post once i finnish the can you guess number 3 post

[Type941]

I checked google, the borey looks like delta with Alfa conning tower or something, but it's just some drawing.. If you have photos, would be interesting.

BTW, I thought all Typhoons were out of service, but you list them as operational?

[Kapitan]

only three typhoons are out of service we do know TK17 and TK20 are still active and will be active till 2008

TK208 dmitri donoskoy is active she is still testing the beluva missiles the ones ment to go in the borey

the picture you refer to on google is of the sevdvinsk class

as of this moment i have only a render of a borey no offical picture has been released and its unlikely too yet given that the borey only enterd full swing in january

[PeriscopeDepth]

navy is down sizing as of 2015 it should look some thing like this:

SSBN: 12 borey class
SSGN: 8 oscar II class
SSN: 25 sevdvinsk class(also double as SSGN) + 5 akula class (last few boats)
SSK: 10 lada amur class
SSG: 12 lada amur conversions


Kapitain, wouldn't you say 25 new SSNs in 10 years is a wee bit optimistic? :)

[Type941]

navy is down sizing as of 2015 it should look some thing like this:

SSBN: 12 borey class
SSGN: 8 oscar II class
SSN: 25 sevdvinsk class(also double as SSGN) + 5 akula class (last few boats)
SSK: 10 lada amur class
SSG: 12 lada amur conversions


Kapitain, wouldn't you say 25 new SSNs in 10 years is a wee bit optimistic? :)

I would say 'no' 10 years ago, but Russia has much more money now, so Im not so sure today. If they plan to fully upgrade the fleet to 4th gen subs, they might do it. Remember, for them the SSBN is probably THE most important factor at keeping the agressors out in case of an all out country vs counry war. All of Russian army and Fleet is just that - a defense measure, so I think they'll do just enough to get those subs going, but of course it bettern not be done at the expense of the economy like it was in the USSR.

[Kapitan]

no considering 4 sevdvinsks are in some stage of construction all ready

3 boreys are either compleate or being constructed (one is at sea and one sevdvinsk is reported floating readying for sea trials and another possibly ready for launch this is from javier a friend of mine in spain)

only one other lada has been laid down

consider in 10 years russia managed to launch what 70 maybe hitting 80 submarines cold war

so 21 shouldnt be a problem however it is doubt full but work has been going on since 1995 and one source reports sevdvinsk already at sea

[Kapitan]

http://www.bellona.no/imaker?sub=1&id=10120

this report says a sevdvinsk is in commission

http://www.bellona.no/en/international/russia/navy/northern_fleet_new/vessels/28907.html

this was in 2003 however construction has sped up just look at kugar and rys they came down the slip way within months of each other

[Kapitan]

reports in that there could be as many as 15 boreys going to see this would acctualy seem likely and if putin stays in power you can count on the full 15

http://www.bellona.no/en/international/russia/navy/northern_fleet/vessels/34010.html

[Kapitan]

sorry to keep posting like this but

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=31013

news article being discussed in another forum they have compleated the second borey in just 6 months

[Kapitan]

The Russia Navy should have 12-15 strategic missile submarines (SSBNs), 50 nuclear-powered attack submarines (SSNs) and 35 diesel submarines as well as some 70 ocean-going surface combatants, according to its Commander-in-Chief, Adm Vladimir Kuroyedov.

The admiral said to achieve this goal the service should receive no less than 25% of the defence budget, compared to its present allocation of about 12%.

Adm Kuroyedov was speaking to reporters during a visit to the Severodvinsk Shipyard, Russia's largest submarine builder, earlier this month. At the shipyard, the admiral was briefed on progress on Russia's first fourth-generation SSBN, the Borey-class (Project 955) submarine Yuri Dolgoroukyi and visited the Gepard, an Akula II-class (Type 971M) SSN which is undergoing final tests before its scheduled hand over to the navy in July.

Adm Kuroyedov confirmed that the modified Kiev-class aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov and the Kirov-class battle cruiser Admiral Nakhimov, which are moored at Severodvinsk, will be repaired. India will pay for the expected three-year repair and modernisation of Admiral Gorshkov before the carrier is delivered to the Indian Navy.

Sources said the project, unofficially valued at up to $550 million, will provide employment for 3,000 workers.

The Admiral Nakhimov, which has been laid up for two years, will be re-commissioned by the Russian Navy. The admiral also told reporters that the navy was launching the construction of the new Project 20380 corvettes, which will be used for coastal patrol, escort and antisubmarine warfare operations. The first of class is scheduled to be laid down at the Severnaya Verf shipyard in St Petersburg later this year. The design of this 1,900t stealthy corvette was developed by the Almaz Central Marine Design bureau.

might have got my figures wrong :oops: but here a defence report

[Takeda Shingen]

consider in 10 years russia managed to launch what 70 maybe hitting 80 submarines cold war

You're obviously quoting diesel boats. SSNs and SSBNs are a different story. They need to average 3.6 launches per year to achieve this figure. Not possible with the level of technology they are supposedly intergrating into the boats.

[Type941]

If it's true that with the new funding, a borey hull was finished in half a year, I think they are starting to get these things outfitted much much faster than before. I think they've budgeted more for next year still, for the military.

[Kapitan]

3.6 launches a year well so far we have had

tambov, st petersburg , the borey (cant spell name), rys,kugar (unnofical reports state sevdvinsk)

so thats 5 or 6 submarines this year

[PeriscopeDepth]

All of which have been in some stage of construction since the late 90s remember.

It'll be interesting to see how fast they get the new SSNs and SSBNs to sea.

[Type941]

All of which have been in some stage of construction since the late 90s remember.

It'll be interesting to see how fast they get the new SSNs and SSBNs to sea.

I guess we all know it's possible since they have done it in the past, it's just a matter of funding priorities. Money wise, they CAN do it now, but it all depends on how they use the money; I'm very much against throwing it into the military, as I feel it has to be used to build a strong economy. The US economy is a huge bubble and will be struggling more and more in the future. If Russia wants to gain some leading positions in the world it must be done trhough economy, being a valuable parter in world trade and making sure its people are prospering. That's what gives you power, not 40 nuclear submarines. Because at the end of the day, the only way military makes money is by selling weapons to the likes of China, but that's peanuts when compared to the whole economy.

[Torpedo Fodder]

I seriously doubt the Russians are going to have 12 Borey's AND 25 Sevrodvinsks within 10 years. Seriously, the US Navy is only going to have a dozen or so Virginias 10 years from now, and even if they ramp up production to two boats a year they'd still barely have 20, and we're talking about the nation that has by far the world's largest military budget and the world's largest warship production capacity.

[Kapitan]

if russia ewnt back to cold war (not going to happen any time soon and this is fictitious)

then america could not and cannot compeate with russia

so far about 6 vessels have been launched and they have compleated one hull within 6 months so 2 a year is feesable infact i could immagine 4 a year from russia and it comes from a good source.

this year alone 2 boreys a lada and sevdvinsk and another kilo have already been built add that to the oscar that was finaly complated and the laying down of the 3rd borey and 2nd lada means its pretty big

[Type941]

Lada - that looks like the Seawolf, doesn't it? Or just typical American sub, with stabilizers on the conning tower? I seen one dock picture of it, do you have more?

I just learned to be honest about all this new generation of subs they are cranking out. I wonder if we have some Jack Ryan reporting on the Russkie acitivity in Polyarni again. :rotfl:

[Kapitan]

sure i have a few

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y262/russian-navy01/lada038cl.jpg
stern

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y262/russian-navy01/lada027ds.jpg
propellor

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y262/russian-navy01/lada017vu.jpg
sail

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y262/russian-navy01/012.jpg
tail of the rudder

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y262/russian-navy01/011.jpg
sail again

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y262/russian-navy01/010.jpg
sail and masts

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y262/russian-navy01/009.jpg
most of the boat

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y262/russian-navy01/008.jpg
bow

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y262/russian-navy01/007.jpg
sail close up

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y262/russian-navy01/006.jpg
sail again

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y262/russian-navy01/005.jpg
bow note the tube doors

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y262/russian-navy01/004.jpg
whole submarine

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y262/russian-navy01/003.jpg
sub at a distance

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y262/russian-navy01/002.jpg
sub at the pier

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y262/russian-navy01/001.jpg
again at the pier

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y262/russian-navy01/ss_kilo_877_4.jpg
thort you might like a kilo for comparison

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y262/russian-navy01/ss_kilo_877_3.jpg
another kilo


there lada amur class

[Torpedo Fodder]

if russia ewnt back to cold war (not going to happen any time soon and this is fictitious)

then america could not and cannot compeate with russia

Don't be foolish; The economy of the United States is nearly ten times bigger than Russia's (ultimately, strong economies are what build and support strong militaries), and Russia will not and cannot EVER go back to cold war defence spending levels unless it goes back to Communism, which allowed that level of spending through complete and absolute government control over the entire economic/industrial base.

[Type941]

Oh, there's no doubt about the size of the US economy, its just that it's a bubble economy and all bubbles burst sooner or later. The simple laws of economics will take over at some point. You can't live forever in debt.

Basically, what happens to a person who keeps borrowing, buying nice things, borrowing more and more? Once something happens (his employer lays him off) and he can't make payments, it's not so nice.

The more deeper problem is that when you produce LESS and consumer MORE - it's bound to end in a collapse. The question of collapse of the US economy is not an IF but a WHEN. And trouble is, when it happens, it'll put the whole world into recession. But as you said yourself, only the communist government can supress the economy and even than it fails. My advice is not to borrow money and buy things you can afford - this way when the crisis happens, won't be affected by it so much.


-------

OT, sorry. The Lada does look like a new Kilo and that water is just nasty! The boat looks nice though, especially that rather complicated hull casing. What is it? Seems like some different textures on the conning tower alone.

Although it looks very crude built, I don't know if that's actually normal for a warship. Perhaps after my Audi I expect panels to be very tightly adjusted. :)

[Kapitan]

did you not read the bit in the bracket fictitious !

americas economy will fail one day already done it once no reason why it cant again

coff coff rubber coff coff :D

[Torpedo Fodder]

Oh, there's no doubt about the size of the US economy, its just that it's a bubble economy and all bubbles burst sooner or later. The simple laws of economics will take over at some point. You can't live forever in debt.

And what does that say about Russia, who's total debt acounts for 41% of it's GDP? Also, only 17% of the US national debt is external, vs 80% for Russia. Internal debts (essentially the government's debt to it's taxpayers) are far more sustainable than external debts, because it's not like the taxpayers can muster enough leverage to make the governemnt pay up on that debt, unlike foreign leasor nations. Of course all national debts do create inflation, with obvious consequences.

As a side note, it'd be very hard for the Russian government to develop internal debt, as it seems almost nobody in Russia pays their taxes anyway :D.

[Kapitan]

some country's have 100% debt ie etheopiea and some other countrys.

russia isnt in major major debt its big but its not small its inbetween

[Type941]

sheesh, and again as soon someone says something that's not honky dory about america, the response is that 'well, you suck too'. That wasn't the point, duh! Russian economy defaulted in 98 and recovered. When US economy defaults the whole world will be sh*t out of luck. You get it?

[Kapitan]

britain wouldnt be so adversly affected due to its remaining oversea colonies falkland bahamas ect

even places like canada pay a subsidy tax to britian new zeland australia fiji all do the same so you can immagine the british economy wont go fully down the pan 9note thats why there are union jacks on aussielands fiji and nz flags)