Article about deck guns

[TVadney]

I came across this article about u-boat deck guns. There was a thread some where around here discussing rate of fire and thought that some one may be interested.

The article goes into rate of fire, effectiveness, and when they were used. There is also a section discussing A-A guns.

http://www.hundius.com/guns.htm

Tom

[MonkeyHero]

Nice find, always interesting to read about how things were actually done during the war :]

[Zie Chuckinator]

very good info. im also reading other things that are on the menu.

[SmokinTep]

Looks like the game got the amount of ammo wrong????

[Nightowl]

I wonder if the Deck Guns were used in rougher seas, than what we are allowed in the game. Also with the AA guns. -Nightowl

[ENtek-IO]

I somwhere read about a mod reducing the rate of fire to 1 in one minute ,thats so unrealistic it hurts ,especially after 1,4 and the reduced damage,i wonder what those folks fear .
With that little ammo you will sink eventually 2-3 ships thats it.
And it was doable in reality!
60ty seconds hehe,I would call such a mod Really unrealistic,weired.
I think i will mod mine to house 240 rounds,i know for fact, from a relative that they even stored additional ammo in places you never would look to check out for ammo.
Which in fact happend while trying to lift a sunken uboot, the history guys who checked the sub out after it was lifted ,found alot of ammo after the army "secured" the ship. hehe

[CCIP]

I somwhere read about a mod reducing the rate of fire to 1 in one minute ,thats so unrealistic it hurts ,especially after 1,4 and the reduced damage,i wonder what those folks fear .
With that little ammo you will sink eventually 2-3 ships thats it.
And it was doable in reality!

Barely doable, and hardly ever happened. I don't think there's any historical precedent on a widespread basis to think you should be sinking multiple ships with the deck gun over the course of one patrol. It may have happened. So did an incident of a plane being shot down by a type VII's DG. But that doesn't mean that we should suddenly jump out and make it into an uber-anti-air weapon, too.

We've had the 60-second discussion so many times before it makes me sick already.

PLEASE. Remember that the stated 15-18 rounds a minute is a not a sustained fire rate, but a maximum instantaneous fire rate, with a fresh crew and ready-use ammunition on deck (limited to ~20 first rounds). In reality, the fire rate over a prolonged engagement would actually be nearer to 80 seconds/shot. :-?

[Faamecanic]

I'll chime in again here...

I just finished a book called "U-Boat War Patrol" (an EXCELLENT book btw...over 400 pictures of crew and boat while on patrol) that was written about U-564. It was written after extensive research and using the U-boat commanders war patrol log. It followed the boat and crew on one complete patrol to the Caribbean and back. U-564 was a Type VIIB (or C) I think. Im at work and dont have the book with me so I will quote it later.

Now for the interesing fact. The Uboat engaged a Tanker somewhere near Santo domingo (again I think because Im trying to go from memory). The U-boat engaged the tanker with the 8.8cm DECK GUN ONLY as they had no torps left.

Here is how they did it. First the gunners would come up throough the conning tower and down to the deck. Other crewmembers would pass shells up from a closet near the Commanders bunk and SLIDE them down a track like assembly from the conning tower to a rack near the gun.

They said in the book that the gunners fired something like 85 shells in 1 HOUR at the tanker (and sunk it). Thats approx 1.5 shells every min. Again I will quote the book when I get home...just to make sure Im accurate. I DO KNOW that it was more than 1 shell a min though because I thought to myself "I'll be .."

Now keep in mind this is only ONE source...and Im sure CCIP and Beery have researched several. U-564 had a VERY effeicent and combat experinced crew...so those times would be HIGHER for the average Uboat crew IM sure.

Also..there was NO mention of a water tight Ammo Box right by the deck gun...only that rack device. They did say in the book that the Ammo for the deck gun was kept BELOW the deck in a storage closet by the Captains bunk. I have read the same thing as the above poster's link said...that there was a water tight container below the deck plates that had ammo ready for the DG. Maybe that wasnt on all boats? I do know...as I have said before... I would NOT want to keep HE ammo up a box near the deck plates unless it had 10" of Steel around it. Just think...one well place DC or a shell from a merchant ship...and BOOM... the Captains quarters and RADIO/Sound man room has a SKYLIGHT!

[CCIP]

Well, hey... there's always my reload mod you know. With 40 seconds, you'll get that 1.5 shells a minute just fine :)

Unless you're really desperate though, I don't think the 1 minute reload time in RUb is as big a deal as people might think.

[Faamecanic]

Well, hey... there's always my reload mod you know. With 40 seconds, you'll get that 1.5 shells a minute just fine :)

Unless you're really desperate though, I don't think the 1 minute reload time in RUb is as big a deal as people might think.

Agree CCIP... again the sim does NOT take into account the time getting your men up topside or the ammo. they just magically appear.

Overall I think the 1 min is a good Average of the time it would take a mix crew of experienced and inexperienced to man a deck gun.

[don1reed]

I use RUb 1.42 and with a worn out crew heading home from a long patrol, we came across a cripple in the vic. BF15...it took over 4 (four) minutes between shots. Those lads were whipped.

[Faamecanic]

I use RUb 1.42 and with a worn out crew heading home from a long patrol, we came across a cripple in the vic. BF15...it took over 4 (four) minutes between shots. Those lads were whipped.

Ok.. Im home now.

The book is "U-Boat War Patrol" The Hidden Photographic Diary of U 564 ISBN: 1-85367-575-X. Got it from amazon.com and it is a GREAT book. Its like Iron Coffins with 400+ pics. of the actual war Patrol

U564 was a Type VII-C under the command of Reinhard 'Teddy' Suhren.

The incident I was referring to starts on page 150 - 157.

U564 engaged a Large Tanker (8,176tons) with its last pair of torpedos. One hit, but the other got hung up in the tube (hot running!) due to damage to the external torpedo door linkage being bent by a Depth Charge attack earlier.

Teddy surfaced the Uboat and waited for the lifeboats with 39 sailors and 2 British gunners to get clear of the tanker. They then commenced firing on the tanker. This was approx. in August 1940.

From the book (pp. 156-157)

"Within the hull, the ammunition was broken out of its store beneath the decking next to the commander's cabin, unloaded from each individual metal container and passed laboriously by hand through the conning tower hatch and out to the waiting gun crew. As each round slid down the small chute that folded down from the conning towers front, it was taken and held in readiness for use by the two loaders on hand for the task.

Over the next twenty five minutes, fifty shells streaked across the narrow gap that seperated the two vessels, thirty five of them impacting on the Vardaas..

So.... it seems this Type VII-C with a experienced crew could fire 2 shells a minute, with a 70% hit rate.

Now...back to the 60 seconds between shells in RuB... I still feel that realisitic. Here is why. First U 564 had a crew that had all worked together for at least 4 patrols. This was VERY unusual. Most crews rotated frequently. There were only THREE people on U564 that had not been on 4 patrols together (1 Officer Engineer in trianing, 1 photographer, 1 seaman).

Realistically we would never have a combined crew that would have worked with eachother this long. Especially in the latter years (1942 and out).

Just thought you guys would like to know what at least one primary source says... that a 2 shell per min rate wouldnt be unrealistic. But not likely. Im sure there are other primary sources out there that say something different.

[Fritz]

I somwhere read about a mod reducing the rate of fire to 1 in one minute ,thats so unrealistic it hurts ,especially after 1,4 and the reduced damage,i wonder what those folks fear .
With that little ammo you will sink eventually 2-3 ships thats it.
And it was doable in reality!

Barely doable, and hardly ever happened. I don't think there's any historical precedent on a widespread basis to think you should be sinking multiple ships with the deck gun over the course of one patrol. It may have happened. So did an incident of a plane being shot down by a type VII's DG. But that doesn't mean that we should suddenly jump out and make it into an uber-anti-air weapon, too.

We've had the 60-second discussion so many times before it makes me sick already.

PLEASE. Remember that the stated 15-18 rounds a minute is a not a sustained fire rate, but a maximum instantaneous fire rate, with a fresh crew and ready-use ammunition on deck (limited to ~20 first rounds). In reality, the fire rate over a prolonged engagement would actually be nearer to 80 seconds/shot. :-?


heh, reminds me of the days in the army, we had so much training on firing a 105mm gun from the Marshall help we got from the US after WW2, we started at 3 rounds in 45 sek range, and a half year later, our battery (6 guns) had a fire rate of
3 shot's in 10 sek on 105mm M1A1 (preset ammo, range and gunpowder)
and
3 shot's in 15 sek on a 155mm M109 A3GN2


on average basis, we (the gun i was on) was capable of aprox...
(thinking hard...) 10 - 20 shot's in a minute of continous fire, WITH rotating crew (clean ammo, no range set and no gunpowder setting)

the old M1A1 105mm gun has somewhat same principle as the 88's and 105mm's of the german sub's, they had to manualy put in the amount of gunpowder, i asume atleast, cause the 88 on the sub had different type of ammo compared to the 88 of the german tanks and AAA on land.

[SmokinTep]

I usually read over at Uboat Net on the various sinkings. It usually took a great amount of ammo to sink a ship. I saw once where they unloaded about 90 shells into one.

[Faamecanic]

I usually read over at Uboat Net on the various sinkings. It usually took a great amount of ammo to sink a ship. I saw once where they unloaded about 90 shells into one.

This is very true. Just read my story about. A 8,000+ ton Large tanker took one torpedo and 35 shells to sink.

ALso keep in mind that our gunners magically appear on deck after you give the order. IRL they would have had to come up from below, unplug the gun, form a line from the commanders bunk to the bridge, unpack shells and hand them 1 by one to the gunners.

Again I feel the 60 sec, while not totally accurate (and what is...SH3 comes close and RuB even closer), is about a good as your going to get.

[Rendroc]

So.... it seems this Type VII-C with a experienced crew could fire 2 shells a minute, with a 70% hit rate.

At what range?

[Sailor Steve]

So.... it seems this Type VII-C with a experienced crew could fire 2 shells a minute, with a 70% hit rate.

At what range?
And in what weather? One of the reasons for the 1-minute cycle rate in RUB was that the game doesn't decrease the firing rate or accuracy with increased weather. The point of the mod in the first place was to increase one point of realism that the critics seem to forget: the deck gun wasn't used all that often.

It seems to me that some people just want to use it as the primary weapon, and that was never so.

[Faamecanic]

They were at 800m or so... and in perfectly calm seas... makes life a lot easier.

If you read my whole post...you see I do NOT disagree with the 1 shell per min rate. Due to many factors not simulated in game (i.e. lack of experience between crew. U 564 was unusual that they had a crew tha for the most part had been on 7 patrols together)

[Patboot]

There seems to be some argument over ROF here.

Best ROF is measured from a land mount- 6 RPM for the deck 8.8 is possibly the max, just pitching and stuffing.

Then there's Practical Rate of Fire:

Aim, Fire, load, re-aquire, aim, fire, reload.

Keep in mind, what seems like a dead calm to you isn't what happens downrange. Even 0.1 degree of roll/yaw/pitch will affect the gun's accuracy. Add time to wait for the fire solution, then Yes,
1 rpm isn't out of the ballpark.

And I know a stabilser was incorporated, but one still had to get the close solution, .

For those of you that haven't any personal shooting experience; When firing a rifle, even your heartbeat will affect the shot placement.


Wow- long post for me........



:|\

[Deamon]

They said in the book that the gunners fired something like 85 shells in 1 HOUR at the tanker (and sunk it). Thats approx 1.5 shells every min. Again I will quote the book when I get home...just to make sure Im accurate. I DO KNOW that it was more than 1 shell a min though because I thought to myself "I'll be .."


Your source doesn't mentioned whether this was a sustained fire or whether they made breaks betwin the salvos to ob obseve the tanker for a while and maybe change the course and reangage. I remember seeing a video clip of an u-boat where the crew conducted rapid fire with the deck gun and i was amazed how fast they could shoot, that was roughly 5 seconds for a shot. They fired one round right away after another.