View Full Version : Should RUb feature the Type XXI at all?
There has been a lot of talk about the Type XXI recently. As many people know, the Type XXI never actually fired a torpedo in anger in WW2, yet RUb features the Type XXI because I figured that it may have been ready a month earlier than it was. However, it's a very tenuous case. In RUb, the Type XXI exists in the game for a month, and players who want to command it have to wait about nine months for it to be made ready.
So I'm considering removing it from RUb altogether. So what do you folks think?
I think we should do what we can for the darn thing, provided it doesn't screw up the other subs and doesn't result in too much unwanted labour and half-assed workarounds.
I'm not against it or anything, but I suppose it all depends on the effort involved. I'd actually suggest that YOU personally don't spend much effort and headache (because that's what modding/testing is, in a nutshell) on it, and let those interested look for fixes and offer solutions. If they find them - I don't think it would be much problem for you to evaluate and implement them.
No need for heated debates and soured spirits like I've seen in the other threads. :-?
User 1834
07-22-05, 12:10 AM
I would just like to quote a recent post by TteFAboB that, I think, is relevent here.
...........We're talking about a game, or a simulator if you prefer, it is not a matter of being 100% realistic parallel universe or a complete fantasy dream. Your suggestions on the XXI availability are honest but think of "Flight Simulator", there are very, very few Boeing 747-XXX Pilots out there if compared to the massive masses of civil and smaller planes pilots, should Microsoft or modders work less hard to present a realistic 747-XXX only because it is a rare plane and if you wish to be a 747 pilot in real life your chances are very slim?
No, and especially because it is a rare, and more importantly, UNIQUE, aircraft it must be special and as realistic as possible to fly one in the simulator.
The same goes for the XXI, it is rare and special, "Silent Hunter III" is not only a realistic captain career simulator, it is open and flexible and allows you to play through your career as you wish, you can play as historically as possible and as unhistorically as possible or anywhere in between the two, you can choose historical boats but operate in unhistorical grids or rebase to unhistorical bases and so on, all with the same level of realism.
You find it negative to ask for a realistic XXI? Fiddling with the XXI could lead to new discoveries of the game mechanics which could lead to realism improvements on the other boats aswell, no modding is ever negative, if the in-game battery recharge operation on the XXI is "different" from the other boats it is an issue valid for investigation too.
i for one want to have something to look forward to, dont remove it!
instead, try to fix the radar if possible :)
snowsub
07-22-05, 01:07 AM
I personally don't see the harm in keeping it, you don't have to use it if you don't want to but if it's taken away you don't even have a choice in the matter.
Would you get rid of insurance just cause you might never use it???
Duncan Idaho
07-22-05, 01:29 AM
I'm all for keeping it, (though I'm not yet a RUB user).
I expect I will be someday soon.
Lastly, I just gotta say I really can't understand all the hostility the XXI causes. This place is so different from other boards...until one brings up the XXI, then all of a sudden the heat comes on. I was involved in another discussion on the subject here, and some joker just hotmouths at me and starts badmouthing my PC. That very same thread in just a few posts from there started finding the wanted fixes for this sub. If we'd have let that person shut us up, we wouldn't have some of the fixes we now have on the table.
Not to head off on a tangent, but there seems to be a small group of people here who need to cool down a bit about the XXI issue, (on both sides).
It's very hard to believe that this animosity's built up to the point that Beery's considering removing the sub. It's a darned shame. :nope:
The XXI is NOT a 'fantasy' sub, it really existed. Also, what isn't modelled in this sim is an ace U-boat commander's influence on Karl Donitz, pressing him to speed up introduction of the latest technology.
A captain can't perform miracles, but it's not beyond the realms of possibility that his efforts to influence BdU early on might have speeded up the introduction of the XXI by a few weeks.
I say:
Keep the XXI, but keep the limitations on it also, so the player can only start his first XXI patrol in April 1945. That means he should only have time for one patrol before the war ends.
The XXI is a wonderful in-game reward for those captains who struggle on frustrated as hell with their old deathtrap Type VII's and Type IX's throughout 1943 and 1944. I'm telling you, without the XXI to look forward to and motivate me, I wouldn't even bother playing a late war career, it's too frustrating.
Remember, the Type XXIII (the XXI's baby brother) isn't in the game, so compensating for that by allowing the XXI to make one war patrol isn't stretching realism too far.
If you want to eliminate a 'fantasy' sub from RUB 1.43, then eliminate the Type VIIC/42, which was never even built!
irishred
07-22-05, 03:09 AM
If you want to eliminate a 'fantasy' sub from RUB 1.43, then eliminate the Type VIIC/42, which was never even built!
Hmm, is it not possible to take the VIIC/42 and use it to simulate another Type VII boat, like the A for 39-40 careers?
jason210
07-22-05, 04:57 AM
I personally don't see the harm in keeping it, you don't have to use it if you don't want to but if it's taken away you don't even have a choice in the matter.
Good answer.
If you want to eliminate a 'fantasy' sub from RUB 1.43, then eliminate the Type VIIC/42, which was never even built!
First, Soviets build (finished) one, and second, VIIC/42 is already disabled in RuB1.42. :)
Ideally, I'd like the XXI replaced by the XXIII in SH3, but that's not possible for modders to do without an SDK since we can't make a 3D model of the XXIII and integrate it into the game.
I'd hoped that Ubi might build us an XXIII, but no such luck.
What Oesten says. No need to be a bloody killjoy over it.
Faamecanic
07-22-05, 07:56 AM
Im all for keeping it, for several reasons.
1) It did go out on ONE war patrol... which thankfully for the allies, the war ended just before the XXI commander got to within 500m of 2 British crusiers and several destroyer escort. Later on that XXI commander ported with the SAME British cruisers to surrender. The XXI command spoke to the crusiers skipper and told them he was within 500m ... the Brits were astonished as they NEVER knew he was there. A testament to the "Uberness" of the XXI.
2) It was put in the game as a "reward" to the players that make it that far. Realistic? Not really. Fun to see what may have happend had a XXI entered the war in the waining months...YOU BET!
3) The same technology was used in the XXIII, a smaller derivative of the XXI with only 2 torps and 14 crew. It was VERY succesful in the Med... considering its small size. The technology was mature...it was the manufacturing (63 day from raw material to FULL SUB!!!) that hurt the XXI and delayed its entry.
I'm not against keeping the XXI, but there should be limitations to simulate it's late availability and problems in getting them into service. Apparently the first ones were commissioned late June 1944 but there was no patrols done before march 45. So my guess is they should be available in July 1944 with a waiting time of 6-7 months...
As for the VIIC/42 it should not be available at all (none were ever completed).
I've seen others talking about the XXIII. Even if graphically it would not be right, couldn't it be modded as a new version of the type II ? After all type XXIIIs did see some action and were quoted in one of the books I have as 'the best submarine of the war'.
So my guess is they should be available in July 1944 with a waiting time of 6-7 months.....
That's almost exactly how they are modelled in RUb. They are first available in July 1944, but delays in testing and sea trials mean that the first time the boat is ready for action is March 1945. You get enough time for one patrol. In reality, some faults and damage sustained in final deep diving tests prevented Schnee's U-2511 (the first XXI to be operational) from leaving on its first war patrol in late March. If those tests had not damaged the boat, it might have been ready by the date it's available in RUb.
If I wanted to remove it, how would I go about it?
I found Uboattype=3 in the flotilla.cfg,
would I just delete that line?
Also what about the VIIC/42?
A hard question. I am for its removal from the campaign but would still like to see it available for single missions.
The Type 7/C 42 can go, with my blessing, though....
jasonb885
07-22-05, 11:45 AM
I have zero problem with its inclusion. You aren't forced to use it.
Those who are familiar with history and want to approximate a historic career won't use it. Those who don't care, might. I see no reason to remove the option and its current presentation in RuB is quite releastic anyway.
Detritus
07-22-05, 12:07 PM
I personally don't see the harm in keeping it, you don't have to use it if you don't want to but if it's taken away you don't even have a choice in the matter.
Good answer.
I'm with them. No one is forcing you to use it if you don't want to but I bet everyone does have an itch to try it anyway- just to see what's it like. Flight sim community seem to be a bit more open minded about things like these and therefore there are lotsa add-ons for prototype planes and such.
I'll repeat: you don't have to use it but you may want to try it one day= keep it as it is in the game. With fixes :yep:
madkiwi
07-22-05, 01:54 PM
Considering that the game follows the chronological history of the war, and none of our actions can effect the outcome (despite the fact that I have sunk close to 400K tons of ships single handed), having this sub is proper.
One of the most intriguing aspects of Microsoft's Combat Flight Simulator 3 is the attempt to incorporate your mission successes into the flow of the game, changing the front lines and assets (airfields etc) available to you based on your results.
If they could have incorporated this kind of game influence into SH3 it would be awesome. Instead, we go to sea knowing that the outcome is predetermined, and that eventually Allied technologies will overtake our abilities to avoid detection (and death). We know that the Allies could not detect the faint emissions from the U Boat radar detectors, and can use them continuously. We know the value of the type XXI, and can choose to adopt it as soon as it is available.
That is my major disappointment with the game.
A hard question. I am for its removal from the campaign but would still like to see it available for single missions.
The Type 7/C 42 can go, with my blessing, though....
Not as easy. Flotilla config determines Type, not model available. YOu would maybe have to remove the 42 entirely from the game to get it out the campaign.
A hard question. I am for its removal from the campaign but would still like to see it available for single missions.
The Type 7/C 42 can go, with my blessing, though....
Not as easy. Flotilla config determines Type, not model available. YOu would maybe have to remove the 42 entirely from the game to get it out the campaign.
Flotilla.cfg determines type, but Basic.cfg determines model. All you need to do to remove any U-boat model from the campaign is to remove it from use by every flotilla - you do this in Basic.cfg. You'd still get it as an option for SP. I've done this with the Type VIIC/42 by setting its start date to June 1945 - thus you can't get the type in an RUb campaign, but it's still available in single player mode.
Zepheron
07-22-05, 03:41 PM
A hard question. I am for its removal from the campaign but would still like to see it available for single missions.
The Type 7/C 42 can go, with my blessing, though....
I agree, I really don't want the option to use it in the campain. When I play a campain I am roleplaying a Uboat commander, and as a Uboat commander I would not have been given that option. But most single player missions are fictional anyway so why not.
HEMISENT
07-22-05, 04:29 PM
I think I'd like to see it available if only for that one month. I don't think Beery should spend tons of time on tho.
Seems like it would be something to look forward to if somehow i could survive that far into the war.
Skweetis
07-22-05, 04:40 PM
Personally, I see this as a Uboat simulation, not a WWII simulation. Sure it is nice to have historical accuracy, but I also like to delve into the "what ifs". Some surprises would be nice, and maybe a fudging of historical details to make things interesting.... Im more interested in simulating being a Uboat captain than worrying about exact historical timelines.... Data and statistics for vessles... absolutely.... but an exact replication of what occured in the atlantic during WWII? No thanks, Ive read that book, I know how it ends. Surprises are always nice to keep you on your toes.
I really liked the "dynamic" campaign in Combat Flight Sim 3... which allowed you to go ahead with "what if"... something like that for Silent Hunter would blow me away...
I look at it as: if it existed I want to use it. Sure it may not have got its chance in real life.... but this is simulation... and down to brass tacks, isnt that part of what simulation is all about: "what if"? I mean hell, its a XXI, not a 688i..... :D
But this is my opinion, your mileage may vary.
James
jason210
07-22-05, 04:51 PM
Keep the XXI, please, even in campaigns. Maybe there could be a note on the screen saying "This would not have been available in 1944". If you want to play historical accuracy, then simply read the note, and don't buy it. But to make it completely unavailable would be like depriving us big boys of a fun toy....boo hoo.
By the way, there should be a "what if element". Otherwise, what's the point of having a dynamic campaign? Should be a fixed campaign with predictable events if you want to re-enact history!
The "what if" campaign could mean "what if there was a damn good ace who could sink 500,000 tons of ships.." like you or me :D - Is it not reasonable to assume that such a mythical figure might just make a significant impression on the war, one of the results of which might be the earlier appearance of the type XXI?
Hi!
Either way, just let us know which files you changed so we can change it back if we don't like it.
Pablo
But to make it completely unavailable would be like depriving us big boys of a fun toy....boo hoo.
By the way, there should be a "what if element".
Well I must admit that I am one of those that are against that Beery uses a lot of energi making the XXI an able submarine, but I can see your point. Still I would say that making an extensive XXI mod inside RUb for a sub that are in use for such a short notice would be a overkill. If people wants to sail the XXI - fine with me, but coulden't it be an other mod, and could people that are so in love with the XXI not make that mod??????
Skweetis
07-22-05, 05:41 PM
Thats a fair enough point, Ibber.... Im more concerned with elite pinpoint accuraty DE's and the other items that RUb takes care of, than commanding a XXI...
Mind you if I get the opportunity to use a XXI I will, just to see "what if..."
:up:
capnmike575
07-23-05, 06:17 PM
let it stay for the people who want it,
but let them mod it if they aren't happy with it.
don't wast time on somthing that is only 5% of the game, and only a "what if" at that .
capnmike575
07-23-05, 06:20 PM
oh...and if i live to see the end of the war and i can get one....im taking it to zouth amerika !!!
I'll leave it in. I looked at it because I was concerned that it was available too early, but the way the game works, there's a 'window of opportunity' (in July to early August 1944) to get the Type XXI. If the player misses that window, it's impossible to get the Type XXI before the war's end. So I think it's good as it is.
I'll leave it in. I looked at it because I was concerned that it was available too early, but the way the game works, there's a 'window of opportunity' (in July to early August 1944) to get the Type XXI. If the player misses that window, it's impossible to get the Type XXI before the war's end. So I think it's good as it is.
Thanks for listening to the feedback, and for making a decision that you probably don't personally agree with. Very fair and open-minded of you.
BobV_07
07-24-05, 02:48 PM
There has been a lot of talk about the Type XXI recently. As many people know, the Type XXI never actually fired a torpedo in anger in WW2, yet RUb features the Type XXI because I figured that it may have been ready a month earlier than it was. However, it's a very tenuous case. In RUb, the Type XXI exists in the game for a month, and players who want to command it have to wait about nine months for it to be made ready.
So I'm considering removing it from RUb altogether. So what do you folks think?
Hey Beery
Well, as you know, I like it. :up:
http://img242.echo.cx/img242/9361/mesub6qj.jpg
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