How long does it REALLY take to reload torpedo tubes?

[Steiger]

I'm wondering how long reloads really took, and were multiple tubes reloaded at once? In the game in takes ~30 seconds, and that doesn't feel right. I know we've got tons of IRL mariners on here who would know something like this.

[shipkiller1]

15 to 30 minutes.

[Steiger]

Can more than 1 tube reload at once?

[shipkiller1]

Can more than 1 tube reload at once?

Yes

Due to personnel requirements and physical space limitations only two tubes at one time.

[ChaosDuck7]

Hopefully this will be changed in the game then to reflect accurate real life reloading limitations?

[PL_Harpoon]

Well, we can't reload the game to load torpedoes in pairs but we can modify game files to so that the total time of loading two torpedoes is the same. It would still mean 10x as much as what's now (I think in all sims reload time is much shorter than that).

BTW, shipkiller1 - 2 torpedoes at once means one on port side and one on starboard, or can both be loaded at once on the same side?

[Shadow]

It'd be an interesting twist, but it'd really slow things down.

You'd fire your four tubes and then evade all counterattacks and disappear for 15-30 minutes up to a whole hour to launch another all-out strike.

Out of curiosity, why does it take that long? Aren't there automatic (ish) loading mechanisms to get torpedoes from the magazine and into the tube? I suppose the torps are pretty damn well secured within the former.

[ChaosDuck7]

It'd be an interesting twist, but it'd really slow things down.

You'd fire your four tubes and then evade all counterattacks and disappear for 15-30 minutes up to a whole hour to launch another all-out strike.

Out of curiosity, why does it take that long? Aren't there automatic (ish) loading mechanisms to get torpedoes from the magazine and into the tube? I suppose the torps are pretty damn well secured within the former.

Thats what time compression is for

[Shadow]

Thats what time compression is for

And therein lies a gameplay issue: what's the point in adding this specific bit of realism if you'll time-compress it away?

[Steiger]

And therein lies a gameplay issue: what's the point in adding this specific bit of realism if you'll time-compress it away?

It takes away the tactical advantage of being able to spam the sea full of torpedoes.

[MadMike]

A USN WWII vet who served on Gato class boats told me they could manually reload a tube in five minutes (provided the boat was straight and level). Modern sub reload times are also rather quick, due to automation.

[Julhelm]

These boats have power reloading and can reload quickly. November could reload 8 tubes in 15. Type XXI could reload it's 6 tubes even faster in 10 minutes. A fair assumption is that newer boats are capable of better performance.

[MaDef]

came across this tidbit of info:
Reloading torpedoes is a rather long process which, in the case of a 688 class submarine, involves dismounting part of the interior floor space to assemble a ramp mechanism on the deck so that weapons can be lowered on a slide to the torpedo room and placed on their respective racks. The entire process of reloading a full weapons load is reputed to take some 12 hours.

Full Article (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/ssn-intro.htm)

[PL_Harpoon]

It seems to me like the author of the article might mistake reloading torpedoes with refitting at port.
I couldn't find any more info on the whole process of reloading a torpedo so I did some other research.
First, there's this picture, which shows what's been written in the article (the floor being removed from decks). But it clearly shows refitting at port.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a8/US_Navy_110810-N-NK458-033_The_torpedo_room_weapons_team_aboard_USS_Alban y_%28SSN_753%29_prepares_to_receive_a_torpedo.jpg

Then, as you can see from cut-away pictures, all torpedoes are stored right behind the torpedo tubes:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-BlOyLHnaqfA/VFfGXjcaqXI/AAAAAAAAFJY/qdY3OPyvfJY/s1600/Los%2BAngeles-class%2Bsubmarine%2BImproved%2B688i.jpg.jpg

Then there's this picture:
http://prometheus.med.utah.edu/~bwjones/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/Torpedo-room-700.jpg

You can also see here that all torpedo mounts are on rails so they can freely move left and right. But is there enough room for the system to select the right weapon mount?
Looking at those pictures it looks like they're mounted on 2 rails. That makes 10 mounts on each rail. Considering that each torpedo has 533mm in diameter, and they are stacked very closed to each other (like those supports in the last picture) that gives us about width of about 5.4 meters (with some safety margin). Now, the boat is about 10m wide. I don't know how thick the hull is, but let's just say that the thickness plus the fact that tubes are slightly below the widest point on the hull will leave us with 8m of space. I think that is enough room for at least two of some sort of temp compartments to store mounts that "gets in the way" of selected weapon. Or they are just removed from the rail (the last picture shows a gap between rails). So it seems that if the selected mount is the closest to the tube it just slides in. If not (for ex. the closest is Mk48 and you want a Harpoon) it takes longer, because all torps placed before the wanted mount need to be removed from the rail. Perhaps that thing might take a while , unless there is some automated system that can stored unwanted mounts for the time of reload. In any case, this shouldn't take hours like the article sugested.

[Barkhorn1x]

That article sounds crazy as the 688 and 688i were improvements on earlier classes but, boy, sure doesn't sound like it! Nuts to think that you have to partially take the deck apart to reload. That simply makes no sense. And the pics above point to a more efficient/automated system.

I'd like to hear from some former crew mates like Jive Turkey for confirmation here.

[Wiz33]

It'd be an interesting twist, but it'd really slow things down.

You'd fire your four tubes and then evade all counterattacks and disappear for 15-30 minutes up to a whole hour to launch another all-out strike.

Out of curiosity, why does it take that long? Aren't there automatic (ish) loading mechanisms to get torpedoes from the magazine and into the tube? I suppose the torps are pretty damn well secured within the former.

It's not that long, close the tube door, pump out water (probably slowly to reduce noise), check and clean the tube for any debris that was trapped, remove the old wire spool and any other electronics connections. load new weapon (which won't be that fast given the 3500lbs weight). re-attached new wire spool/electronics. close torp door and given that any weapon handling is probably double or triple checked. That's totally reason. They may speed it up in an emergency but given that anything that has to do with watertight integrity is of the highest priority on a sub. 15 minutes under combat condition still sound reasonable.

[shipkiller1]

Ok, everyone needs to take a step back and forget anything you have heard or read about or pictures you have seen regarding Torpedo loading before 1970..

To answer the first question, yes, port and stbd. Not enough room to do both upper and lower tubes efficiently together.

See pic..
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/<a href=http://s218.photobucket.com/user/shipkiller/media/Navy%20Stuff/0217080641c_zpsgdha0yez.jpg.html target=_blank>[IMG]http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc36/shipkiller/Navy%20Stuff/0217080641c_zpsgdha0yez.jpghttp://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc36/shipkiller/Navy%20Stuff/0217080641c_zpsgdha0yez.jpg


This is a fourth flight 688 (688i) and the two tubs on the left are tubes two and four. You can see that it is faster to do one each on each side simultaneously.

All torpedo tube loading is 'powered'. The boats do have a block and tackle for this purpose but it is the 'emergency handling gear'. If you loose hydraulics then you use this... If you have lost hydraulics, then you are in a WORLD of hurt...

Once you get the weapon into position in front of the tube, then you pivot the tray to align it with the tube (cant). Attach the loading pole to the aft end of the weapon, the pop all for straps that hold the weapon to the dollies. Then set the pivot tray to the depth own ship is currently at.. (important).
Then start ramming the weapon into the tube.... slowly.. After the weapon is fully loaded, the lock the weapon into the tube. Remove loading pole, and finish the loading process... cables/wires etc.. which I will not go into here.



In the first picture that was posted yes, you have to remove the upper level and middle level decks. That is one of the reasons I stated that it takes two or three hours of setup before you can ship the first weapon. Usually it takes all day.....

[shipkiller1]

That article sounds crazy as the 688 and 688i were improvements on earlier classes but, boy, sure doesn't sound like it! Nuts to think that you have to partially take the deck apart to reload. That simply makes no sense. And the pics above point to a more efficient/automated system.

I'd like to hear from some former crew mates like Jive Turkey for confirmation here.

So, how would YOU get these 3500lbs weapons into a tube only 33ft in diameter and packed with equipment?

Of course something is going to have to be removed to allow access. The decks are the easy things.. The upper level deck is also where the weapons skid pieces are stowed.

The weapons skid sits topside, bolted to the deck.

The middle level deck is actually a hydraulically powered lifting deck that pivots and locks into place allowing the weapon to ether raise to the topside deck skid or lower from the deck skid into the rails on the middle level deck. Once secured in place, the locks are disengaged and the middle level deck lowers (on its pivot point) which lowers the weapon into the room to site on the four dollies in the original picture. Then it is strapped down.

This was us in Guam:
http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc36/shipkiller/Navy%20Stuff/ORD_Torpedo_Mk-48_Into_SSN-723_Guam_USN_lg_zpszv56jl5t.jpg

The baseplate is bolted to the deck. The Welmet is the main structure attached to the baseplate. Side rails, the four 'dog ears' and the two legs.
All these are disassembled and stowed below.

Hydraulic powered 'rammer chains' on the middle level deck raise the weapon into the deck skid or lower the weapon into the room.

In the original picture in the first part of the thread, you can see the middle level deck in the raised position.

[PL_Harpoon]

I think the problem is that the article is written in a such way, that it can be interpreted that you must remove deck floors to reload torpedoes into the tube (from the rack).
I think it's reasonable to assume you need to do this to load all torpedoes into their storage area on sub.

I also found this video:
https://youtu.be/KS28IAG3mQE?t=28s

I know it's a different sub, but the torpedo is the same and at least the ramming process seems similar to what shipkiller1 has said.
In this video the process takes 1.5 minutes but you can clearly see how much has been cut out.
If you add all the necessary wiring then suddenly 15 minutes doesn't seem that much.

It also just appeared to me, that it seems like the upper tubes can be loaded only with the torpedoes from the upper rails. Otherwise it would increase load times even more.

Too bad we can't implement realistic reloads (reloading 1 port and 1 starboard torpedo at a time) without the help from the devs. But we can modify the reload times to somehow simulate the same effect (like setting reload times to 7.5 minutes for a single tube).
I think I'm gonna play with those things for my mod :)

[Barkhorn1x]

OK. Think we are talking past each other. That linked article seems to be referencing magazine (in port) replenishment procedures - as does some of the pictures. So of course that's going to be a rather lengthy and involved process.

What the OP asked is how long does it take to reload tubes between shots (on patrol). And the consensus appears to be 15 mins. which means the game timeframe is very generous.

[Julhelm]

None of this available footage shows combat conditions, though. Compare it to reloading battleship guns. There is good footage online that shows the USS Missiouri firing and reloading her guns from the 80's:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTW_xpK-Twc

See how it takes about a minute to load the gun, yet during wartime trials the rate of fire per gun was 2 per minute, or 30 seconds.

Now these torpedo videos typically show exercises or weapon trials. In combat conditions where the life of every man on the boat is on the line, reloading would most likely be much faster.

[shipkiller1]

Loading a torpedo tube with a torpedo, combat conditions, peace time, whatever, takes 15 minutes...

There is a lot that has to happen to the unit.

Some of the things that would seem to be very quick, is slowed down because you have to take your time and be QUIET about it. You drop a 85lb dolly on the deck would produce a rather large detectable transient.

One transient, is all it would take to bring your adversary's attention to that part of the ocean, raising his NRD and now you are counter detected.

[PL_Harpoon]

That may be true, but even if they can do it twice as fast in a wartime situation that still means about 7 minute per torpedo (or pair), not 45 seconds (as is in current realistic settings).

EDIT.
So, shipkiller1, is it safe to assume that for example in a knife fight situation, where both subs are actively pinging each other the captain could give orders to load torpedoes as fast as possible without taking care of the sound it makes. Or are hydraulics set in such a way that they can only operate at a certain speed?
I'm asking just out of curiosity because I doubt there's even enough incentive to place such a mechanic in the game.

[Julhelm]

Research from first hand sources indicated about 1:30 to 2 minutes to be a reasonable figure for loading a torpedo into the tube on a 637 sub. The 45 seconds comes from the game originally being compressed into a half-scale environment where the flow of time becomes about 2x realtime.

We know that the Novembers could reload the entire nest of 8 tubes in about 15 minutes, which works out to slightly under 2 minutes per tube. Type XXI could reload its 6 tubes in 10 minutes, which is comparable performance using power-loading equipment. This performance is also in line with every other sim, from Fast Attack through DW.

[shipkiller1]

In combat conditions where the life of every man on the boat is on the line, reloading would most likely be much faster.

This is romantic gobbly gook. Sorry to be blunt about it.

You train like you will fight, and you fight like you train.
Submarines are a procedure oriented vessels, more so than any surface craft.
You have a procedure for almost everything, and you better have the book out when you are doing something. If something goes wrong and you did not have the procedure out and/or you were not following said procedure eg: One step is to check to make sure the A-cable (to the weapon) has an O-ring attached and is greased properly and is fully seated into the breach door. You bypass this step because '****, its always correct' but the O-ring has rolled or has a cut in it, and the cable floods out when you flood down and power the weapon up, so now you have to back haul the weapon and replace the A-cable or this little fupa' damages the weapon..... and the Approach Officer needs that weapon.....

When the stress level rises, you always fall back to how you were trained. That is why we, as supervisors (either senior enlisted or officers), always stress using the procedure, even if you have performed it a thousand times. In high stress levels, you may forget or overlook something because you were in a hurry, and in the very complex world of the submarine this may kill you.

Getting rid of this 'civilian complacency', learning to check and recheck is the hardest thing to teach and drill into the heads of new crew members so it becomes second nature.

Yes, in a war time environment, you 'might' shave off a couple of minutes but you better be really SURE. This will come down to each individual loading team on each submarine.

[ollie1983]

Cripes what a load of confusion.

The 12 hours is an in port thing when the weapons have to be slid through a hatch in the hull, one can imagine some manual work and setting up the ramp is involved, you can't manhandle these things, a MK48 weighs over 1.5 tonnes and is hardly the right shape to try and grab hold of. Assuming you have to reload a full load of weapons, it must take hours, maybe even a whole day or something, each weapon being craned over the hull individually.

Reloading a single tube, given that it is done by mechanical means, I bet takes a few minutes at most.

[Julhelm]

So the time to reload a tube is now back to WW2 levels where they used manual equipment?

Every available reference literature, from Friedman to Polmar give the same figures that work out to about 2 minutes to reload a tube. Roughly the same figure was relayed to me by a first hand source, whose information I tend to trust.

[shipkiller1]

Look, I am just telling you reality. Polmar was a researcher and journalist and never had to do this.

Personally, I do not think the weapon reload times need to be changed. I don't find that a short (with respect to reality) reload time a big deal.
They keep the balance and flow of what you are trying to do high.

If you increase the reload times too much, then the non-hardcore sub-sim gamer will not find the game fun and not recommend it to their friends.. and that is the end game here.

You could put the variable in one of the config files so the hard core guys can change it.

I am a realism nut, but I find the game highly entertaining, and I have recommended it to the guys in the office. We are all retired submarine Fire Control Chiefs (E7's and E8's). We are the tech reps and engineers that have to fly to where ever to fix the boat when it is broke, which means we spend a lot of time overseas. Scotland is my favorite place to go....

[Ramius]

.... Scotland is my favorite place to go....

Want to do a swap then ??

[shipkiller1]

Want to do a swap then ??

Lido's fish and chips in Helensburgh... :yeah:

[PL_Harpoon]

You could put the variable in one of the config files so the hard core guys can change it.

Actually, that's already done.

It's in config.txt under difficulty settings:

PlayerWeaponReloadTime=0.8,1,1.5,2


The value of 1 means 30s in 1x time scale.
I already tested the game with a value of 15 (7.5 minutes, so that 2 torps cam be loaded in 15) and was actually surprised how little effect this had on gameplay (or maybe I adjusted quickly to the new situation).

[Ramius]

Lido's fish and chips in Helensburgh... :yeah:

You'll be asking for a battered Mars bar or deep fried pizza too I suppose :har:

[Steiger]

Actually, that's already done.

It's in config.txt under difficulty settings:


The value of 1 means 30s in 1x time scale.
I already tested the game with a value of 15 (7.5 minutes, so that 2 torps cam be loaded in 15) and was actually surprised how little effect this had on gameplay (or maybe I adjusted quickly to the new situation).

The genesis of this question is rooted in the Soviet campaign that I'm working on. I've build 10-ship convoys that the player has to attack - with the old 30-second reload, the player can infinitely spam the seas with torps, and a miss is not a big deal. With a 7 minute reload, and 6 tubes on some Soviet vessels, this will add a deeper tactical layer to the game I think. Missing a ship, or wasting too many torps on the same target will become a problem. It's already a problem in my play testing and that's with a 30 second reload.

[Julhelm]

Look, I am just telling you reality. Polmar was a researcher and journalist and never had to do this.

Personally, I do not think the weapon reload times need to be changed. I don't find that a short (with respect to reality) reload time a big deal.
They keep the balance and flow of what you are trying to do high.

If you increase the reload times too much, then the non-hardcore sub-sim gamer will not find the game fun and not recommend it to their friends.. and that is the end game here.

You could put the variable in one of the config files so the hard core guys can change it.

I am a realism nut, but I find the game highly entertaining, and I have recommended it to the guys in the office. We are all retired submarine Fire Control Chiefs (E7's and E8's). We are the tech reps and engineers that have to fly to where ever to fix the boat when it is broke, which means we spend a lot of time overseas. Scotland is my favorite place to go....
I am a realism nut as well to a degree, but yes, the game has to be enjoyable. This is entertainment software after all. We originally had a 1:30 reload time but I always felt this was a bit on the tedious side, so we brought it down to be faster. We never factored in you can reload two tubes at a time though, which means it took the Germans and Soviets about 3:30 to reload one of their bow tubes.

The reload times are in the vessel data files under the weapon systems block. Players can simply edit this value to what they think works best.
For some reason rate of fire is never given for submarines while it is for surface ships.

[shipkiller1]

Rate of fire is determined by how fast the ejection pump can cycle. Usually in about 30 seconds or so. Each tube has its own slide valve. You can only have one slide valve open per bank. These are mechanically and electrically interlocked. We have not used compressed air to directly eject a weapon for 60 years or so...

We use compressed air to move the ejection pump piston which moves the water cylinder forcing seawater up through the Impulse tank. The impulse tank is a vertical tank which has both tubes running through it.. The slide valve for the tube being shot opens and allows the water from the impulse tank into the tube, thus forcing the torpedo out with HUGE force.... three to four G'sss This is one of the reasons you can launch at any speed.
Here is a crude quick drawing:
http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc36/shipkiller/Navy%20Stuff/Tubes_zpsas8k1goq.jpg

You can be draining/loading a tube at the same time you are shooting the other tube in the bank. The cycle time is from the time of fire to when the ejection pump ram goes back to battery, ready for the next shot..
zz

[ollie1983]

After conversing with a former serving crewman, he reckoned provided the required weapon was on the rack right behind the tube in question, he reckons 2-3 minutes tops.

It is rather more complex when the weapon has to be moved around as it stowed away in the wrong place, when it all becomes a bit like a sliding puzzle as you need to move other weapons around to make a slot for the one you want. This could take 15 minutes or more.

[PL_Harpoon]

Rate of fire is determined by how fast the ejection pump can cycle. Usually in about 30 seconds or so. Each tube has its own slide valve. You can only have one slide valve open per bank. These are mechanically and electrically interlocked. We have not used compressed air to directly eject a weapon for 60 years or so...

We use compressed air to move the ejection pump piston which moves the water cylinder forcing seawater up through the Impulse tank. The impulse tank is a vertical tank which has both tubes running through it.. The slide valve for the tube being shot opens and allows the water from the impulse tank into the tube, thus forcing the torpedo out with HUGE force.... three to four G'sss This is one of the reasons you can launch at any speed.
Here is a crude quick drawing:


You can be draining/loading a tube at the same time you are shooting the other tube in the bank. The cycle time is from the time of fire to when the ejection pump ram goes back to battery, ready for the next shot..
zz

Funny that I was just about to ask about this. So Fast Attack was correct in a sense that you can have only one torpedo door open per side.

After conversing with a former serving crewman, he reckoned provided the required weapon was on the rack right behind the tube in question, he reckons 2-3 minutes tops.

It is rather more complex when the weapon has to be moved around as it stowed away in the wrong place, when it all becomes a bit like a sliding puzzle as you need to move other weapons around to make a slot for the one you want. This could take 15 minutes or more.

It would be really cool to see that implemented in the game too. Just small additions like that could add a lot of depth to the game.

And before someone says it would be too unintuitive for a game, no it wouldn't. You could just make the "stores" panel look something like that:

http://oi67.tinypic.com/8wmqs3.jpg

A simple glance at this panel would give you an idea how can you reload a desired weapon.
Then, in between missions you could rearrange the stores by simply dragging a weapon into selected slots. The same would apply to refitting at port.

[Nippelspanner]

Great post Harpoon, I agree.
This is one of the many small details that turns a game into a deeper sim without making things complicated, I feel.

[shipkiller1]

Both outer doors can be open at the same time. Just one slide valve.

[ChaosDuck7]

/snip


Thats an AWESOME concept picture. I always thought the weapon management screen in the game needed an overhaul.

[PL_Harpoon]

Both outer doors can be open at the same time. Just one slide valve.


Ok, but you still need to open the slide valve to launch the torpedo, right?
So you can't launch the second tube if the first one is open?
Or is it that after launching a tube you can close the slide valves but keep the tube open to not loose the wire, then refill the tank and shoot the second tube?

[ikalugin]

It's not that long, close the tube door, pump out water (probably slowly to reduce noise), check and clean the tube for any debris that was trapped, remove the old wire spool and any other electronics connections. load new weapon (which won't be that fast given the 3500lbs weight). re-attached new wire spool/electronics. close torp door and given that any weapon handling is probably double or triple checked. That's totally reason. They may speed it up in an emergency but given that anything that has to do with watertight integrity is of the highest priority on a sub. 15 minutes under combat condition still sound reasonable.
On soviet subs there is no need to remove the wire spool.

[shipkiller1]

Ok, but you still need to open the slide valve to launch the torpedo, right?
So you can't launch the second tube if the first one is open?
Or is it that after launching a tube you can close the slide valves but keep the tube open to not loose the wire, then refill the tank and shoot the second tube?

Correct.

[shipkiller1]

The silver canister on the back of the torpedo in the pictures is called the Torpedo Mounted Dispenser (TMD). It contains approx 10kyds of guidance wire, with 250 yards is enclosed in a armored sheath call the Flex Hose. The TMD primary purpose is to pay out wire to compensate for own ship maneuvers.. The torpedo still has its own spool.

This is why I say the wires fail too often in the game...

[jmr]

It's sucks that the wire fails too often because from what I remember from Dangerous Waters is that you always want to fire in a lag LOS but in CW that means wire break.

[shipkiller1]

One thing I noticed is that there are different values for weapon reloading in port.

This should not be the case. All weapons take the same amount of time. This does not include VLS of course... That is a whole different animal...

[PL_Harpoon]

One thing I noticed is that there are different values for weapon reloading in port.

This should not be the case. All weapons take the same amount of time. This does not include VLS of course... That is a whole different animal...

At least that thing can be easily fixed with modding. Each weapon has a resupply value in weapons.txt.

The same can't be said for wires though.
So, to sum up (with a few things from other threads), in order to have a realistic torpedo operations we would need those things (things that can be done with mods are highlighted):

- ability to load two torpedoes at a time provided they're on different sides.
- generally longer reloads
- more in depth stores management which would affect reload times
- safe torpedo launches at any speed
- much less wire breaks (simulating the wire would be ideal - I assume that it would act like a trail - but it would be much easier to make it break only during sharp manoeuvres with a slip possibility of random failures)
- uniform resupply times (probably also longer)
- torpedoes relying on actual sensors for detection rather that fixed range
- passive torpedoes should not home in on wrecks
- active torpedoes should not home in on wrecks that have stayed underwater for a while (all the air has been removed)

Did I miss something?

[Julhelm]

So how do the storage racks actually work? I always assumed you could pick any weapon from anywhere on the rack using something like a powered traverse, but it sounds a little more complicated than so.

And what is it like on subs that have bow tubes?

[shipkiller1]

So how do the storage racks actually work? I always assumed you could pick any weapon from anywhere on the rack using something like a powered traverse, but it sounds a little more complicated than so.

And what is it like on subs that have bow tubes?

Actually no, its not.

The layout of the 688 (all flts) is, there are two outboard stows (port/stbd &upper/lower), and the middle (inboard) stows (upper/lower). In between the outboard and inboard stows, are the hoists. There is a hoist both port and stbd. The hoist is used to relocate a unit from upper to lower to lower to upper.

In the original picture at the beginning of this thread, it showed a unit on the no. 1 load line (tube 1). A unit is unlocked from its stow and locked onto something called the rabbit. The rabbits are hydraulically operated and move (shuttle) the unit port or stbd. Then the unit is unlocked from the rabbits and locked into the new stowage location.

From a game play perspective, I think having the ability to move weapons around in the room not a smart play. It adds too much complexity to the game and something I do not want to have to deal with while making an approach. Do you think the CO determines where each weapon is stowed in the room. No, The Weps and head Torpedo Man (TM) do. If you really want to drill down on this, there are different software versions of ADCAPS and different software versions have different capabilities... If the CO and Weps discuss that they need a specific software variant, they just tell the TM's to get it loaded into a specific tube. The CO does not need to know everything that is going on down in the room to make this happen... He has other things on his mind.

As to bow tube boats, we have not had any of those for a long time.

[Julhelm]

Well, we do have the Skipjack in game, and we're going to do the Soviet subs which of course all have bow tubes, so it's interesting to know what their layouts are like.

Do the Sturgeons and Permits have the same layout as the Los Angeles?

[ikalugin]

- safe torpedo launches at any speed
How does tube angling affect launch safety?

[shipkiller1]

How does tube angling affect launch safety?

No effect.

[shipkiller1]

Well, we do have the Skipjack in game, and we're going to do the Soviet subs which of course all have bow tubes, so it's interesting to know what their layouts are like.

Do the Sturgeons and Permits have the same layout as the Los Angeles?

Permits: Unknown. I never went aboard one. Never had the need.

637's have only two sets of stows. Port/Stbd. The single hoist is in the middle of the room between them (the stows). Stowage capacity is the same.

[PL_Harpoon]

How does tube angling affect launch safety?

It's more a matter of a force pushing the torpedo out of the tube. I think the tubes are angled only out of necessity (with the end on the side of the ship).
Think of it like that. At 3Gs acceleration in 1 second the torpedo will move by 15 meters and can accelerate from 0 to 56 knots. Looking at the cutaway pictures the torpedo tube seems to be about 13m, so it will easily clear the tube in one second and I assume it then slows down to 50 (or whatever the torp. is set to) due to drag.


And what is it like on subs that have bow tubes?

I think this varies from ship to ship. The only example of loading the forward facing tubes that I was able to find was the already mentioned HMCS Victoria.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-bGS5D62p5hI/VkRF-E2FatI/AAAAAAAAHkQ/YyF0dMkpqIU/s1600/victoria_cross_section_b.jpg

https://youtu.be/KS28IAG3mQE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KS28IAG3mQE)

It seems that the only thing that's different is the way torpedoes are placed before the tube.

[Julhelm]

So in a related question, how long does it take to reload a noisemaker IRL?

[Steiger]

So in a related question, how long does it take to reload a noisemaker IRL?

About 2 seconds, judging from my wife's abilities.

[Capt Jack Harkness]

... and we're going to do the Soviet subs...
Great news!

But back on topic, no one has discussed reloading while the ship is changing depth (decks not level). Currently there are no restrictions on reloading based on the angle of the boat/deck, what are the real restrictions like?

[max-peck]

About 2 seconds, judging from my wife's abilities.

:D:D:D:D:D

[shipkiller1]

I think the tubes are angled only out of necessity (with the end on the side of the ship).

The US Navy canted the tube so they could put a big spherical transducer array as far forward as possible, away from the noise of ship.

So in a related question, how long does it take to reload a noisemaker IRL?

I can only remark about US boats, a quick torpedoman can do it in about 20 seconds. Also, US submarines have not one but two countermeasure (3") launchers. Both are loaded. 688I's (751 and above) also have two 6" countermeasure pods aft, non-reloadable at sea. SSN-21 class, and 774 class also have 6" launchers but not on pods.


But back on topic, no one has discussed reloading while the ship is changing depth (decks not level). Currently there are no restrictions on reloading based on the angle of the boat/deck, what are the real restrictions like?

As long as the loading party keeps updating the depth on the load line, they can keep loading during depth changes.

[ikalugin]

No effect.
Won't the sideways pressure of the waterflow, should the sub be making it's top speed, atleast hypotheoretically, affect the torpedo exit?

I can only remark about US boats, a quick torpedoman can do it in about 20 seconds. Also, US submarines have not one but two countermeasure (3") launchers. Both are loaded. 688I's (751 and above) also have two 6" countermeasure pods aft, non-reloadable at sea. SSN-21 class, and 774 class also have 6" launchers but not on pods.
Won't the 6" pods have multiple noisemakers stored in them?

And what is it like on subs that have bow tubes?

It is sub to sub dependent, for example on Kilos the torpedoes are loaded via torpedo tubes:
https://topwar.ru/uploads/posts/2012-11/1353986940_90582086.jpg

Or via the torpedo loading hatch, commonly found on modern nuclear boats:
http://vordme.users.photofile.ru/photo/vordme/2971638/xlarge/60662842.jpg

[yamato9]

Hello,

First i must say that Cold Waters is really remarkable game which after many years of absence returned me back to submarine simulations. Good work Killerfish Games!:up:

Now let return on the subject...
I work on improving realism(or at least increasing difficulty in gameplay) on one CW mod present in DL section of subsim. It will bring decreased submarine maneuverability, realistic TT reloading times, slower rudder responses in order to simulate crew response time on given orders and submarine inertia during sharp turns. Plus new weapons etc...

But now I have problem in determining what torpedo tube time would be realistic for US and what for USSR submarines.

shipkiller1 mentions 15 min per one torpedo tube, on the other hand in book "Cold War Submarines The Design and Construction of U.S. and Soviet Submarines" by Norman Polmar is stated this:

1. That Type XXI after firing first salvo can fire second salvo of 6 tubes after only 10 min.
2. That November class submarines can reload all 8 tubes in only 15 min. Because it has automated reloading system.
3. that Kilo class submarine can reload all of its 6 tubes in a matter of 5 minutes, also because it have automated reloading system.

Alfa and Sierra class submarines also have fully automated TT reloading system.

It is hard to believe for me that US submarines are so much slower in this operation than Russian ones. On other hand russians have a practice to use automation in their submarines (and main battle tanks also).

This is also clearly visible in number of crews in US and Russian subs. Despite Russian submarines are often of higher displacement they usually have 30-50% less crew members on board.

So can I get some let say "general consensus" what should be the torpedo tube reloading time for US and what for USSR subs?:hmmm:

[PL_Harpoon]

For my mod with the same aim I'll be using 7.5 minutes for US subs. The reason for this is that it takes 15 minutes for one tube but you can reload 2 (one on each side) at the same time.

As for Soviet ones, I haven't decided yet.

[Shadriss]

A couple observations from another US Submariner on this subject:

1) I've seen numbers from a number of classes of sub pulled up as reference points. This makes little sense, as the weapons and procedures are going to vary from class to class. It may well take a very short time on a NOVEMBER or KILO... this has nothing to do with the LOS ANGELES or SEAWOLF. By country, sure... compare away, as the weapons and tech were, in essence, developed by the same people. But just because country A can reload very quickly, it does not follow that country B can.

2) That said, Shipkiller1 has given accurate times for US ships, both for in-port replenishment and at-sea tube loading.

In port, once the team hits it's stride, you can move a weapon from the pier to in-the-room in about 25 to 30 minutes... but other restrictions keep us from getting more than two down in an hour, and depending on how many you are shipping/unshipping that day, it can very well take all day, or even two in the case of a full room load.

At sea, one of the factors not talked about (although halfway mentioned) is the effect of clearing the tube before it's reload. The flex hose that Shipkiller mentioned has to be cleared, which has it's own procedure, to keep it from damaging the torpedo tube doors. The tube has to be drained, opened, inspected for damage, which takes time. The hydraulics that move the weapon are not set to "Speedy Gonzales" speeds... it's a slow and deliberate speed designed to not damage the weapon or the tube, and allow the reload team the time they need to perform other inspections as the weapon is loaded. 15 minutes is a good team on that weapon... more often, I'd say that it's closer to 20.

"Oh, but in combat, you'd go faster!" No... not if you are smart, for all the reason Shipkiller already mentioned. The mantra is, "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast." Or to put it another way, "If you didn't have time to do it right the first time, what makes you think you have time to do it a second time?"

It may be slower... but in all honestly, outside of a ASUW engagement against multiple ships at once, if you need more than four ADCAPS, you have a bunch of other problems anyhow.

[caine007]

Seeing as a leading theory why Kursk sank was an experimental torpedo blowing up because of improper handling and loading procedures, I can see why slow and steady would be the order of the day.

[Ramius]

......At sea, one of the factors not talked about (although halfway mentioned) is the effect of clearing the tube before it's reload. The flex hose that Shipkiller mentioned has to be cleared, which has it's own procedure, to keep it from damaging the torpedo tube doors. The tube has to be drained, opened, inspected for damage, which takes time. The hydraulics that move the weapon are not set to "Speedy Gonzales" speeds... it's a slow and deliberate speed designed to not damage the weapon or the tube, and allow the reload team the time they need to perform other inspections as the weapon is loaded. 15 minutes is a good team on that weapon... more often, I'd say that it's closer to 20........

:Kaleun_Applaud::Kaleun_Applaud:

But they will still say, well 60 years ago they could do it faster :oops:

[longface]

Yes, I thought so too. The "12 hours to load a full complement of weapons" means at port, it takes 12 hours to open the loading hatch, disassemble some parts, place the 26 weapons on their racks, assemble and close the hatch. It does not mean that each torpedo takes two hours to load.

I'm sure that the loading time in CW probably matches the reality of automated loading systems.

Also, from what I can tell, most weapons are inspected well before combat begins. That being said, during combat itself, reloading a single tube is just a matter of having the system ram the selected weapon into the tube after anything inside, such as wiring, has been removed.

[Julhelm]

At the end of the day, playability and fun are the design drivers here, not realism for the sake of realism. 15-20 minutes to reload a weapon in a US nuclear sub may be realistic, but...

A: 15-20 minute reload per tube is not fun, nor does it fit the 20-30 min average engagement time we aim for.

B: Noone is going to believe it takes that long in reality, anyway.

So I've settled for a tiered system, where on easy level it takes 1 minute to load a weapon, 1½ on casual, 3 minutes on realistic, and 5 on elite. The russian boats can reload in 2-4 minutes depending on the sub, so on realistic and elite you may be at a tactical disadvantage against the enemy.

It's part of the great rebalancing patch I've been working on.

[shipkiller1]

At the end of the day, playability and fun are the design drivers here, not realism for the sake of realism. 15-20 minutes to reload a weapon in a US nuclear sub may be realistic, but...

It's part of the great rebalancing patch I've been working on.

Now I have put out a bunch of info on reloading (tube loading) and shipping (loading onto the boat). This was to clear up many preconceived notions that have been floating around.

I personally do not mind that it takes 30 secs or 1 min to reload the tube. It makes the game play go that much faster and more enjoyable. Its not a bad balance.

If I was asked I could only fix two things in the game, it would be keep the torpedo's from acquiring on sunken ships/submarines and have heartier wires... Fixing these two issues would make the the game more realistic and would make for a better game. Everything else is just minutia...

Even if these two are not fixed, it just makes me work a little harder. :salute:

[longface]

Now I have put out a bunch of info on reloading (tube loading) and shipping (loading onto the boat). This was to clear up many preconceived notions that have been floating around.

I personally do not mind that it takes 30 secs or 1 min to reload the tube. It makes the game play go that much faster and more enjoyable. Its not a bad balance.

If I was asked I could only fix two things in the game, it would be keep the torpedo's from acquiring on sunken ships/submarines and have heartier wires... Fixing these two issues would make the the game more realistic and would make for a better game. Everything else is just minutia...

Even if these two are not fixed, it just makes me work a little harder. :salute:

The steam page says that for the v1.06 beta, wreck homing will be temporarily disabled while the devs tweak it just a bit. You might be happy about that.

[caine007]

At the end of the day, playability and fun are the design drivers here, not realism for the sake of realism. 15-20 minutes to reload a weapon in a US nuclear sub may be realistic, but...

A: 15-20 minute reload per tube is not fun, nor does it fit the 20-30 min average engagement time we aim for.

B: Noone is going to believe it takes that long in reality, anyway.

So I've settled for a tiered system, where on easy level it takes 1 minute to load a weapon, 1½ on casual, 3 minutes on realistic, and 5 on elite. The russian boats can reload in 2-4 minutes depending on the sub, so on realistic and elite you may be at a tactical disadvantage against the enemy.

It's part of the great rebalancing patch I've been working on.

That sounds about right to me. It feels too fast at the moment but 15-20 minutes doesn't suit the cinematic style of the game. To really make it realistic you'd need a LOT greater control over timeskip (different speeds, smarter interruption system) because there'd be a whole lot of sneaking around with nothing much happening otherwise.

[caine007]

The steam page says that for the v1.06 beta, wreck homing will be temporarily disabled while the devs tweak it just a bit. You might be happy about that.

I kind of like it as a gameplay feature but it needs some tuning.

I've used sinking ships as cover in the past (even if I'm guessing in RL a sub would be staying the hell away from a sinking - potentially explosive wreck) and I've thought it might be cool to use a sunken ship as a hiding place to cover my noise (though I don't think it actually does).

But far more often I've had torpedoes become ridiculously attracted to some wreck significantly off their course, so fixing that would probably be a better idea.

[Shadriss]

At the end of the day, playability and fun are the design drivers here, not realism for the sake of realism. 15-20 minutes to reload a weapon in a US nuclear sub may be realistic, but...

A: 15-20 minute reload per tube is not fun, nor does it fit the 20-30 min average engagement time we aim for.

B: Noone is going to believe it takes that long in reality, anyway.

So I've settled for a tiered system, where on easy level it takes 1 minute to load a weapon, 1½ on casual, 3 minutes on realistic, and 5 on elite. The russian boats can reload in 2-4 minutes depending on the sub, so on realistic and elite you may be at a tactical disadvantage against the enemy.

It's part of the great rebalancing patch I've been working on.

Overall, I agree... and like Shipkiller, I provided information to clear up misinformation.

But far more often I've had torpedoes become ridiculously attracted to some wreck significantly off their course, so fixing that would probably be a better idea.

THIS. SO THIS. I find it interesting that even though the plot is displaying an acquisition cone, the weapons will often detect on something FAR outside of it to the left or right. It's made a few torpedo spreads I've fired all home in an ships I wasn't trying to kill at the time.

[PL_Harpoon]

THIS. SO THIS. I find it interesting that even though the plot is displaying an acquisition cone, the weapons will often detect on something FAR outside of it to the left or right. It's made a few torpedo spreads I've fired all home in an ships I wasn't trying to kill at the time.

The acquisition cones aren't accurate ATM. I don't know if it's a feature or a bug but they only show half of the current angles.
Also, I don't know if it's realistic or not, but actual detection cones for torpedoes in CW are ridiculously high.
For ex. Mk48 has acquisition cone of 160 degrees.

[shipkiller1]

For ex. Mk48 has acquisition cone of 160 degrees.

Are you saying that a real MK-48 has 160' acquisition area or this is in the game.

[PL_Harpoon]

Are you saying that a real MK-48 has 160' acquisition area or this is in the game.
In the game

[shipkiller1]

I fixed this myself with the proper values.

[PL_Harpoon]

I suppose you can't say what those are but could you at least tell if reducing it by half is closer to RL?

[jerseytom]

Just thinking about this from the perspective of an engineer... I could absolutely see the potential for a big difference between what a designer / drafter thinks a mechanism might be capable of, and what it's actually capable of in practice. Theory vs. reality.

With that said, for those who have done the job for real, I'm curious about a few things if you can share. Not even so much interested in suggesting any of this for game play, just interesting to me from a mechanical perspective.


Non Wire-Guarded Torpedoes
If a boat were shooting Mk16's would that be a less involved process? Not having to clear out an old wire or hook up a new one, things like that. I'd guess it would be a small difference if the emphasis is still on integrity, inspecting the tube, etc.


Swim Out, Slide Valves, Etc.
I get the impression there's some interaction here between how all this valving works and what/when you can shoot or reload. Is that still the case if you're say shooting a Mk37 that swims out rather than being blasted out by a big slug of water? For that matter, is swim out something that was specific to the Mk37 or is there a scenario when you'd use that in something more modern like a Mk48?


Torpedo Trials Video
Earlier in the thread there's a video from the Royal Canadian Navy shooting practice torpedoes. What exactly are we looking at here (https://youtu.be/KS28IAG3mQE?t=2m33s) 2'30" in when it shoots?