Does 1.6 still have "worldwide weather"

[Metalogic]

Hi - I'm thinking of getting CMANO but what thing has put me off a little, I read somewhere that CMANO has "worldwide weather" e.g. if it's raining in Manchester (which happens often IRL, believe me!), it's raining in Cape Town (everywhere, in fact). Is this still the case or has this been fixed yet? If not, will this be fixed in the future?

I could put up with this if there are plans to fix this soon. Thanks!

[Sunburn]

Hello,

This is correct; weather in Command as currently implemented can change over time (e.g. clear day at noon, thunderstorms at night) but it remains constant over different locations at the same time. This is not a bug (which is why I would consider the term "fix" unsuitable) but a limitation of the current weather model.

As you can see on our public running poll (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3437496), discrete weather fronts are a request fairly popular but less so than other features. So it is definitely on our development stack, but other items have higher priority at the moment.

Thanks!

[Reckall]

Metalogic,

Actually weather fronts can be important: an escaping plane can use the weather line between average to bad weather to try degrading a pursuing player radar, visibility, FLIR and so on...

Anyway, dynamic weather was present in games like Harpoon II. The original manual said:

"The weather model in Harpoon II is more complex than might appear
on the surface. When a scenario is first created, the weather model
is run on its map. This generates a set of low and high pressure cells
based on a set of environmental rules. The map itself has a set of
meteorological information that represents the base values for the
map region and season depicted by the scenario. When the game is
run, these low and high pressure cells interact with the base values
present on the map, producing pressure changes and thus cell
“movement” across the map. The interaction of these cells produces
boundary effects along their edges, including various types of cloud
cover and precipitation. The relative movement of these pressure
cells also generates wind speeds, which effect the sea state for that
area. One of the most important things about weather in Harpoon
II is its effect on sensor performance. Radar and other electromagnetic
sensors (including eyes) are effected appropriately by precipitation
and visibility levels. Sea State is another example; it has a
terrific effect on sonar performance, both passive and active. Sea
State is a general measure of ocean conditions, both in terms of wind
speed and wave height, and is represented by a number from 0 to 9.
A Sea State value of 1 would represent a light breeze with flat, calm
(maybe rippled) seas, while a value of 9 indicates almost fifty foot
waves and a wind strength of over sixty-five knots! Each increase in
Sea State reduces passive sonar ranges by about 15%, depending on
the operating frequency of the sonar. High and medium frequency
sonars are affected more severely than low frequencies. Active
sonars are affected even more by Sea State. Rough seas tend to fill
the ocean with tiny air bubbles, even at great depths. Since air
bubbles reflect sound, the reverb effects make active sonar almost
useless above Sea State 5. A similar effect can be demonstrated by
turning on your automobile high-beam lights in a dense fog bank."

Notice how, in 1994 (21 years ago) we only had not only dynamic weather, but it depended from the *region* and the *season*. Basically: no snow over the Sahara or rain over the North Pole.

Of course modern technology overcame *part* of the problems caused by weather, but it remains a key factor in scenarios set - to make a wild guess - the '50s and the '60s. There is is a reason as why in the '40s (admittedly 10 years before) fleets "chased storms". The USS Enterprise was saved by a storm in the Battle of Santa Cruz; the USS Hornet was not so lucky and she was sunk. We are talking about *a* battle, just to show how a difference in weather just some miles away could be crucial.

[Sunburn]

Anyway, dynamic weather was present in games like Harpoon II. The original manual said:

"The weather model in Harpoon II is more complex than might appear
on the surface. When a scenario is first created, the weather model
is run on its map. This generates a set of low and high pressure cells
based on a set of environmental rules. The map itself has a set of
meteorological information that represents the base values for the
map region and season depicted by the scenario. When the game is
run, these low and high pressure cells interact with the base values
present on the map, producing pressure changes and thus cell
“movement” across the map. The interaction of these cells produces
boundary effects along their edges, including various types of cloud
cover and precipitation. The relative movement of these pressure
cells also generates wind speeds, which effect the sea state for that
area. One of the most important things about weather in Harpoon
II is its effect on sensor performance. Radar and other electromagnetic
sensors (including eyes) are effected appropriately by precipitation
and visibility levels. Sea State is another example; it has a
terrific effect on sonar performance, both passive and active. Sea
State is a general measure of ocean conditions, both in terms of wind
speed and wave height, and is represented by a number from 0 to 9.
A Sea State value of 1 would represent a light breeze with flat, calm
(maybe rippled) seas, while a value of 9 indicates almost fifty foot
waves and a wind strength of over sixty-five knots! Each increase in
Sea State reduces passive sonar ranges by about 15%, depending on
the operating frequency of the sonar. High and medium frequency
sonars are affected more severely than low frequencies. Active
sonars are affected even more by Sea State. Rough seas tend to fill
the ocean with tiny air bubbles, even at great depths. Since air
bubbles reflect sound, the reverb effects make active sonar almost
useless above Sea State 5. A similar effect can be demonstrated by
turning on your automobile high-beam lights in a dense fog bank."


Nice theory. Too bad it doesn't work.

The only area of H2/3's model actually affected by weather is sonar. (And sonar modelling had so many problems that the inclusion of weather was small consolation).

Effect on visual sensors - none (not even day & night difference!!!). Effect of e.g. rain on IR sensors - none. Clouds hiding aircraft - nope. Clouds & fog blocking LGBs - nope. Weather & sea state affecting ships: none. Nothing. Nada.

In contrast: Command actually models these things. Visibility varies not simply by day and night but by actual time of day (different ranges at e.g. dawn, noon & dusk). Rain drastically reduces visual, IR and laser sensors depending on its intensity. Clouds can block both visual/IR sensor and things like LGB illumination. Even some radar frequency ranges are affected by rain. Rain and increased sea state can also mess up sonar surface ducting and CZ propagation (it does not affect deep-to-deep sonar detections, as in RL). Furthermore, heavy sea state drastically affects the accuracy of gunfire and other unguided weapons on ships - the smaller the ship, the more severe the effect. And more.

In addition: in H2/3 the scenario author has no control at all over weather. Let's say you want to make a Falklands scenario, with appropriately dark pissy weather, and the wonderful weather engine decides it's warm and sunny in the area - tough luck, you can't do anything (not that it would matter much, considering that only sonar is affected by the weather) . Command OTOH lets you fully customize the weather properties to suit your area of interest _and_ also change them later on the course of the scenario via easy and powerful scripting. And what's more, these properties _actually matter_. Which is why many scen authors use them.

Advantage: COMMAND :rock:

[Reckall]

You are basically telling me that since a model is broken IN ANOTHER GAME you feel justified to have a broken model in yours (if it rains in the Sahara it rains in Antarctica et. al.)

Sorry, but this is a game which boasts " Square off against the Soviet Union in the cold war confrontation, and against resurgent Russia in the new multipolar world order." (http://tinyurl.com/pap754a) This implies areas of conflict a tiny-weeny larger than my flat.

Even the first moves of a resurgent WWIII, done by a gamer who, he discovers, is forced to sport the same weather everywhere would end up in a farce. I'm sorry, but the ability to modify the temperature of the snowstorm over the Sahara Desert is not a badge of honour.

Deciding to put this problem at the end of the list of those you decide to tackle in the next patches (good luck, BTW!) is a legitimate choice which I respect. But don't try to change people's perception of reality to justify your choices. There are no snowstorms in the Middle East - end of the story.

[Sunburn]

So to sum up:

* Harpoon 2/3's weather model was very ambitious and promising but poorly/inadequately implemented. It also cannot be further fixed/improved since development has ceased.

* Command's weather model is less ambitious at the moment, but works exactly as designed and is widely used by scenario authors to provide extra challenges and opportunities in scenarios. Additional functionality has been requested by some players and it's on the developer team's plans for the future.

* People with fragile egos should actually play a game instead of blindly quoting manuals. It will help them to avoid public embarrassment.

Thanks :)

[strykerpsg]

There are no snowstorms in the Middle East - end of the story.

A quick Google search of Middle East Snow provided these lovely shots......just saying.....

Pictured are Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Israel, Egypt, Syria, Iran, Iraq, Libya and United Arab Emirates. Perhaps not the entire Middle East, but a decent representation.

The last one is Hawaii, just to be well rounded. Now, where's that bag of apples? Someone needs feeding....

[Reckall]

So to sum up:

* Harpoon 2/3's weather model was very ambitious and promising but poorly/inadequately implemented. It also cannot be further fixed/improved since development has ceased.

Whereas a company trying to create a similar game 21 years later is still unable to do the same, while bragging about global spanning scenarios.

Games like Dangerous Waters, and Harpoon are able to simulate multiple, distinct, and unique local weather conditions. It is significant to note that even failed game systems such as Naval War Arctic Circle can implement this vital function, while MNO cannot.


* Command's weather model is less ambitious at the moment, but works exactly as designed...

...As long as the scenario is in a *small area*, we know that.


* People with fragile egos should actually play a game instead of blindly quoting manuals.

I think you just tied your right shoe with your left one. Even forgetting the fact that there are games more worthy of play than Command out there, the aim of quoting H2 manual was simply to make a comparison.

Developers unable to program such basic wargame functions should spend their time playing games instead of trying to make them and doing it so badly.
It will save consumers money and developers public humiliation.


Thanks :)

You are welcome :)

[Herman]

There are no snowstorms in the Middle East

I'm sorry. Vincenzo and I were discussing MNO's iso-weather system vs. Real World weather. I told Vincenzo that there were no snowstorms in the Middle East (or anywhere else in MNO's world), but they can occur in real life. I failed to make this distinction clear to him.

[Reckall]

I'm sorry, strykerpsg, and you are right. True, I listened to Herman without checking, because his experience (he travelled *all over* the World) is bigger than mine. Actually, he was talking about Command, while I thought he was talking about his experiences in ME Yet, I should have checked personally.

Command's weather model is still broken on areas bigger than my flat, and, BTW, both I and Herman still have to find a way to make it snow (so in Command you can't have a snowstorm, AFAIK). In any case, the one to blame here it's me.

I apologize,

Vincenzo

[Metalogic]

Hello,

This is correct; weather in Command as currently implemented can change over time (e.g. clear day at noon, thunderstorms at night) but it remains constant over different locations at the same time. This is not a bug (which is why I would consider the term "fix" unsuitable) but a limitation of the current weather model.

As you can see on our public running poll (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3437496), discrete weather fronts are a request fairly popular but less so than other features. So it is definitely on our development stack, but other items have higher priority at the moment.

Thanks!

Okay, thanks, it would certainly get my vote for some development time to be spent on this, given the amount of other detail in the game, it seems strange for weather to have been so generalised. Hope this gets looked into soon.

[Captain Vlad]

Advantage: COMMAND :rock:

Having played both, I tend to agree. Was delighted in the scenario involving Norwegian corvettes attacking Britain that I could actually USE the cloud cover to my advantage and that it also caused me problems trying to get a drone close enough to the enemy contacts to positively identify them.

My own opinion of 'what needs to be added' mostly mirrors the list on the link you posted.

While locational weather fronts would be some icing, especially for the pre-information age scenarios, I personally feel like more cake would be better, priority wise.

Just my opinion of course.