View Full Version : I just want to know
I want to know WHY it does takes about 5-6 or more to refuel and reload or rearm an American fighter Jet like the F-18F Superhornet.
I have search the internet for information and I can't find anything.
I really want to know why a modern American Fighter Jet need so many hours when our own JAS39 Gripen(Griffin) don't even need half the time*
* Since our last discussion in another thread I have been searching the internet for the same info I have in my head about the Swedish Airforce in english. The only English information I could find is from Wiki and I have posted an answer about loading time a.s.o from wiki in that discussion.
I hope there are some one who can provide me with information to why it takes so long.
I just want to know
Markus
The devs answered this (common) question in the Mega-FAQ (http://www.warfaresims.com/?page_id=2920#713), with a link to an old article (http://www.harpoonhq.com/waypoint/articles/Article_056.pdf).
The devs answered this (common) question in the Mega-FAQ (http://www.warfaresims.com/?page_id=2920#713), with a link to an old article (http://www.harpoonhq.com/waypoint/articles/Article_056.pdf).
Thank you for giving me these links which I have already read, they do not provide me with the information I seek
Technical information as such. If some of you do not know or it is a secret then I do understand it fully, but I just want to know why technically...
Here's an example I found on a homepage and it's about the french airforce
Can't remember every word
"it don't take long to hang two Exocet-missile under the wing on a...but it takes about three hours to get the onboard computer to accept the Exocet"
that made me wonder is or have the french airforce several different type of operation computersystem that doesn't work together very well and could it be that it is exactly the same problem with the American fighters.
Or should I just leave it there and say this is the way it is....
Markus
The aircraft ready time requirements are just arbitrary numbers and only represent someone's best guess. Everyone has their own opinion on what they should be. The only relevant factor here is that in games like Harpoon or Naval War Arctic Circle, you aren't force to accept someone else's perception of reality. If you don't agree with their numbers, you can always change it to something you find more suitable.
There are people who disagree with the ready times set forth within the Harpoon PlayersDB. They simply change them to 30 minutes or whatever suits them with the DB editor and then play the scenario. That option does not exist for MNO.
I do not question whether it is correct or not. I just wonder why it takes about 5-6 hours.
I have read about field personnel and pilots need for rest, but which Air Force has ONLY a few staff per plane, and just one pilot per flight ??
Could it be that the dev behind this great game do not know why technically?
Markus
You raise good points. The Harpoon PlayersDB has most strike aircraft set for 6 hour turn-around times. This is just a best guess. The number is only an approximation for the number of times I think the aircraft would fly in a day. It is nothing better than a rough guess.
Other folks have made up all kinds of justifications such as:
17 minutes to taxi
11 minutes to walk to car
02 minutes to take a piss
.2 minutes to shake off
.5 minutes to wash your hands
etc
-----
6 hours total
'Magically', it adds up to some pre-determined time, but the numbers are just pulled out of thin air - pure fabrications. Harpoon players also disagree with the PlayersDB ready times. They just go modify it to what they believe is more accurate. This is what CasoDB and WinstonDB did. They don't agree with the 6 hour delay and changed it to 30 minutes for their own pleasure. You can't do that with MNO.
You raise good points. The Harpoon PlayersDB has most strike aircraft set for 6 hour turn-around times. This is just a best guess. The number is only an approximation for the number of times I think the aircraft would fly in a day. It is nothing better than a rough guess.
Other folks have made up all kinds of justifications such as:
17 minutes to taxi
11 minutes to walk to car
02 minutes to take a piss
.2 minutes to shake off
.5 minutes to wash your hands
etc
-----
6 hours total
'Magically', it adds up to some pre-determined time, but the numbers are just pulled out of thin air - pure fabrications. Harpoon players also disagree with the PlayersDB ready times. They just go modify it to what they believe is more accurate. This is what CasoDB and WinstonDB did. They don't agree with the 6 hour delay and changed it to 30 minutes for their own pleasure. You can't do that with MNO.
First of all I do not need to change the time of readiness if it is correct and I'll have a warefare sim that is as correctly as possible.
Here's another thought may be rude.
So the American fighters e.g F-18F takes about 5 hous to refuel and reload e.g ASUW-loadoat so therefore in EVERY other airforce it MUST be the same readiness time.
Or the first 1000 person is right handed so person number 1001-1010 must also be right handed. logic as its best.
I do not like guesses.
Markus
So the American fighters e.g F-18F takes about 5 hous to refuel and reload e.g ASUW-loadoat so therefore in EVERY other airforce it MUST be the same readiness time.
You are looking at the Ready Time values as though there was some kind of 'right' or 'correct' answer. There is no such thing. There are no mathematical or laws of physics to govern them. They are simply someone's best guess or opinion. It is just one person's perception of reality.
A USAF F-16 might require 6 hours to load with bombs while a Jordanian F-16 might take 8-9 hours for the same loadout. These values are not necessarily the same, but they are arbitrarily set by the database manager in MNO. If you don't agree with them, your only choice is not play or request a refund. You can't change them.
You are looking at the Ready Time values as though there was some kind of 'right' or 'correct' answer. There is no such thing. There are no mathematical or laws of physics to govern them. They are simply someone's best guess or opinion. It is just one person's perception of reality.
A USAF F-16 might require 6 hours to load with bombs while a Jordanian F-16 might take 8-9 hours for the same loadout. These values are not necessarily the same, but they are arbitrarily set by the database manager in MNO. If you don't agree with them, your only choice is not play or request a refund. You can't change them.
Thank you for your answer.
I do hope that I get a technical answer to why it takes so long.
Markus
noguaranteeofsanity
08-05-14, 12:37 AM
Just my 2 cents and thoughts about this...
Some nations or units have multiple crews or pilots for each aircraft, but I also know some nations don't and so rest or sleep would certainly be a factor. For example the RAAF has trouble hanging on to pilots because once they are taught to fly they can get a job with an airline for double or triple the salary, without being moved around the country every few years, or serving in remote airfields. Even when they borrowed pilots from other squadrons, the RAAF only had 25 pilots for the 14 aircraft they deployed to the Middle East to support operations in Iraq.
Maintenance would be another factor that isn't really modelled properly in any game, simply because most aircraft have 1000s of components, each of which will need to be individually serviced after X number of flying hours and it would simply be far too complex to model or keep track of it all (plus make any game unplayable). But for example they might have to pull out and check the engines every 100 hours, or the hydraulics every 50 hours and so on. Grounding an aircraft for 12 hours every day is a good way to abstract this without having a player juggle or worry about complicated maintenance schedules.
I am not certain about this, but if you look at the technical specs for a lot of datalinks used by the military, you will see they are far slower than your average internet connection or computer network, so I imagine that lack of bandwidth might limit the speed that data can be transferred or loaded into a aircraft. That might partly explain the 3 hour delay linking an exocet up to a aircraft, but that is just a guess.
Apart from that I don't think you are going to get a detailed answer, because there are too many different aircraft, weapons and militaries, all of which are going to do things differently in different circumstances, or have different requirements and constraints on how quickly they can ready an aircraft.
Finally if you have Command questions, I would suggest asking on the Matrix forums which seem to be far more active and you are likely to get a much better answer.
Replied here:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2230709&postcount=35
During surge ops, 4th gen fighters can produce 2.0 to 2.1 sorties per aircraft per day. But not all aircraft would fly at the same time. Typically, 1/4 to 1/3 of them would be stuck on the ground. Also, a day/night capable strike squadron should be able to produce 3 packages per day.
So lets take a quick look at how a 12-aircraft squadron would be implemented in Command:
First make 4 aircraft permanenty unavailable for ops. That prevents the player from putting more than 2/3 of the fighters in the air as per RL observations.
Then ready the remaining eight aircraft with strike loadouts. These have 6 hr ready time. With a 500nm strike radius you need 2 hrs (++) to fly the mission. So that's 8 hrs to ready and fly. Then repeat three times (again as per RL ops), and you end up on 2.0 surge sorties per plane per day.
If you make 10 out of 12 planes available to the player you get 2.5 sorties per aircraft per day and you've probably moved beyond what's realistic. There are real-life examples where much higher sortie rates have been achieved (typically for simpler CAS missions that do not require any briefing - all you do is haul bombs a short distance) and we will look into adding a 'quick turnaround' option for these cases. Ref earlier discussion.
I'd also like to have a 'sustained ops' ready time option, where the player is limited to 0.6-0.9 sorties per plane per day as a alternative to the 2.0-2.1 surge rates we have today. Will have to discuss it in more detail with the other programmers when back from the summer break.
Thanks!
The aircraft ready time requirements are just arbitrary numbers and only represent someone's best guess. Everyone has their own opinion on what they should be. The only relevant factor here is that in games like Harpoon or Naval War Arctic Circle, you aren't force to accept someone else's perception of reality. If you don't agree with their numbers, you can always change it to something you find more suitable.
LOL Herman is this supposed to be another one of your little anti-Command potshots?
Still angry for getting called out on your bullcrap - when you copied our (now outdated) Harpoon material and tried to steal the credit for it? Dude, systematically copying other people's work, label it as your 'own creation', and at the same time discrediting, stalking and harassing the original authors isn't cool. More here:
http://www.warfaresims.com/?cat=129
LOL when your hate campaign gets you slapped down and banned by moderators at one site you immediately move on to the next. It's like whack-a-mole.
Herman, how many days have passed since you were banned from a forum and had your posts and 'copycat' material removed and user deleted? Less than two weeks huh?
Oh and where did your stalker & trolling buddy go? The 'Milan Monster' dude? Haven't seen him in at least a few days.
There are people who disagree with the ready times set forth within the Harpoon PlayersDB. They simply change them to 30 minutes or whatever suits them with the DB editor and then play the scenario. That option does not exist for MNO.
In fact it seems most people disagree with you. Wonder why :)
And what is MNO?
I'm not interested in that discussion you have with Herman I just want to know the technical stuff behind this 5-6 hour or more regarding refuel and reload or rearm a fighter jet.
I do NOT questioning whether it take 5-6 hour or more
Markus
I understand, and I apologize.
Please give me some days and I'll try to write up a more detailed explanation. But here and now I can tell you its not topping up of fuel and mounting stores on aircraft that takes time. Main factors are planning, briefing, weapon assembly, crew rest, and to some degree also maintenance.
The planned Quick-Turnaround option will cover fuel and ordnance only, and will be as short as 20-30 min, in some cases even less.
Thanks :up:
I do NOT questioning whether it take 5-6 hour or more
I think you SHOULD. It is a very valid point. :)
As has been pointed out, the Swedes and Israelis have very sophisticated re-arm and re-fuel systems to maximize sortie rates. That's one reason why Alan Caso created his derivative CasoDB from the PlayersDB. He reduced the generic 6 hour ready times to something he felt was more reasonable, about two hours.
Others have customized the PlayersDB further. One user even had instantaneous ready time! I'd never say that anyone's opinion was right or wrong, but that was a bit drastic even for my tastes. Such a shame that MNO doesn't allow for this option. :ping:
"the Swedes and Israelis have very sophisticated re-arm and re-fuel systems to maximize sortie rates"
INDEED we have. and that's why it take no time to get the onboard computer to accept the missile e.g RBS15 or RB99(AMRAAM) and not like the french 3 hours(don't know why)
But can you say with 110 % sure that it don't take these 5-6 hours for a F18?
I do not know if I should mentioned it or not, it was something I found in some of the Swedish Military forum I found while searching for more info about The readiness regarding refuel and loadout on JAS39.
Markus
That's one reason why Alan Caso created his derivative CasoDB from the PlayersDB. He reduced the generic 6 hour ready times to something he felt was more reasonable, about two hours.
Others have customized the PlayersDB further. One user even had instantaneous ready time! I'd never say that anyone's opinion was right or wrong, but that was a bit drastic even for my tastes. Such a shame that MNO doesn't allow for this option. :ping:
Still not sure what 'MNO' is.
A major shortcoming in Harpoon is that you can only have a single ready time for each loadout. So you can hack the database to death but during gameplay there is no flexibility at all.
As mentioned repeatedly, in Command we would like to change that by having no less than three different user-selectable options. We could also make 'no ready time' a doctrine option but cannot imagine any serious player would ever use that. Lol.
Herman, what changes are planned to the Harpoon game engine to improve the air ops model?
I do not know if I should mentioned it or not, it was something I found in some of the Swedish Military forum I found while searching for more info about The readiness regarding refuel and loadout on JAS39.
Markus
We've already done a fair bit of reseach on this but would really appreciate if you could post those links here.
Thanks!
Reckall
08-05-14, 04:12 PM
LOL when your hate campaign gets you slapped down and banned by moderators at one site you immediately move on to the next. It's like whack-a-mole.
Thee told me that you posted some comments on Amazon.com about the review of "Command" I wrote for the site but I'm unable to find them. Do you have the links?
Thanks,
Vince
We've already done a fair bit of reseach on this but would really appreciate if you could post those links here.
Thanks!
It was not any serious stuff some of the debates made fun of the readiness time of a F18
If I remember what it said
"lol I guess they only have 1 crew to maintain the repair and the reload a.s.o"
They were discussing the readiness time between American fighters and the Swedish JAS39.
Since I have visit so many homepage during my search for English information about JAS39 I can't remember which Swedish homepage it was on. I do remember it was on a Swedish military forum.
If I should find this passages again I will link to it, but I don't know if you understand Swedish
Forgot one thing
It was after have read this funny post I start to get this growing idea..why does it take....
Markus
INDEED we have. and that's why it take no time to get the onboard computer to accept the missile e.g RBS15 or RB99(AMRAAM) and not like the french 3 hours(don't know why)
Since it is French, I bet it's some kind of union thing. The Missile Makers Union local #2457 doesn't want to work with Radar Union #3164 and the three additional hours are to ensure job security. :rotfl2:
(Relax everyone, it's just a joke. I love France - especially Les Dames.) :woot:
But can you say with 110 % sure that it don't take these 5-6 hours for a F18?
That's the thing. Because I am an honest man, I can say with absolute certainty that "I do not know" and "I could be wrong."
Sure, there are folks who think that 'I put it in my database. That must be how it works because I said so." They then proceed to brow-beat anyone who disagrees. This thread is a perfect example.
The uncertainty is why it has always been so important to have open databases in games like Harpoon and NWAC. No one can ever say that their way is the right or only way. You might think 5-6 hours is acceptable, but someone with a Top Secret manual of operations might feel 45 minutes is sufficient. Unfortunately, even if a user has the real life manual of operations, he cannot implement the information in MNO. With Harpoon, he would just change the relevant data and play his game his way. With MNO, you are stuck with someone else's perception of reality, regardless if there is any actual basis.
I have made a little war story so you can see or read how thing in theory work in or on a provisional Swedish airbase in case of a war
I am definitely not a writer type, so understand that my fictional stories can be a bit cloudy. Fictional in action, but not in technical actions
Start of story
Its May 7, time 1316, somewhere outside the Polish maritime border a group of 10 JAS39 Gripen C is heading homeward.
Originally they were 16.
6 was shot down by enemy fighters, SAM's and AAA. And three of these 10 remaining fighters have been damage due to AAA or SAM's. The damage goes from light to severe.
The mission was a major failure.. Only one of the three targets got a indirect hit (partial damage) The defense was to heavy
While they are on the way home each pilot get information on their on-board computer. This information tells them that he and his plane has got a new landing place
Each pilot plot the new information into the computer(Additional info. Every JAS39 has a complete
overview and description of all roads in Sweden). After the pilot have plotted the new information into the on-board computer a new heading is made for him.
When these 10 fighters have almost reached the Swedish maritime boarder the group divide into two minor group.(4+6)
This 4 plane of the 10 JAS39 is heading to toward south of central Sweden the other six are heading north
Meanwhile a random airbase has been created outside of a small town. It took a military group about 2 hours to create this fully functional airbase(can't remember what they are called)
Right after the airbase is finished the leader call for a meeting those who attend this meeting is the
chief mechanic, weapons officer, intelligence officer, medics and some other important person vital to the operation of this base and the JAS39
In the beginning of this meeting the leader tell every one that 4 Fighter is returning from a mission and one of them have been hit by either AAA or fragments from a SAM and three more JAS39 will arrive from. South and additional three fresh pilot will arrive.
He give orders to the chief mechanic and the medics who takes note
The Intelligent officer tell the group about the coming target these 6 JAS39 shall destroy
The weapon officer takes note.
After the meeting is finished starts a flurry of activity at the base, everything has to be in order when the fighter jets arrive, especially the four aircraft that have been on mission who need extra service.
About 30 minutes later the three JAS39 from south arrives they land and taxi to a waiting point
15 minutes thereafter the first of the 4 JAS39 approach the runway/road after landing the director direct him to his waiting point. The last JAS39 that land is the plane who has been damaged. In case it should crash on the runway/road.
The plane lands with no problems and the firefighters and the medics are there to help this wounded pilot. the other pilots have gathered in large tent(forgot the name of it) the Plane that have been damaged are moved to special spot and so is one of the three undamaged plane. This plane need a longer maintenances
When each plane has landed and have reach their point the pilots take a talk with the chief mechanic who takes note
after he has talked with the last pilot he has a meeting with the other mechanics where he gives them a short briefing.
Even the weapon officer has a meeting with the folks to inform them what type of weapon the plane shall have a.s.o
Three of these pilots have been moved to a new location where they can get some rest before their next task.
The rest of the pilots are getting information from the leader and the intelligent officer.
While this meeting is going on and the pilots are getting something to eat
The fighter planes are getting ready for the next mission.
They are refueled, reloaded with the type of weapon needed for this mission
About 1 hour later the pilots return to their JAS39. Each pilots plot the way points a.s.o into the on board computer and taxi to the starting point
approximately 1 hour and 45 minutes after the first JAS39 aircraft had landed on this temporary airbase, the last of these six JAS39 takes off
Right after the last plane has left the base the military group start to pack things together
End of story
So you see we do things at almost the same time. The military make plans for the next mission or start to plane for the next mission already after the last fighter jet have left the base. a.s.o
It is of course more complex than my story I haven't mention the defence of the base and other stuff
And that's is also a reason to why I "I Just want to know" why a ground crew in USA need about 6 to refuel and reload a.s.o a F-18 or whatever fighter jet it may be.
Markus
The loss rate you mentioned of over 33% in that one mission is totally unsustainable in conventional war. So with losses like those, they'll get sortie rates reduced by virtue of running out of fighters, either being shot down or held back to avoid a fruitless sacrifice. So, you have six aircraft taking off again. So far that's 22 sorties. With the original sixteen, so far that's-1.4 (rounded up) sorties per plane per day so far.
Now let's assume the next mission goes completely smoothly. No losses, no damage. Then all six go out and strike again. 28 sorties, sixteen planes. 1.75 sorties per plane per day. At this point there's undeniable wear because this is a frenzied surge. Now if you look at emsoy's post (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2230709&postcount=35), the 1.75 I calculated is lower than the surge ops rate for more modern fighters-undoubtedly skewed by the high losses in the first strike. This is for surge operations (frenzy-quick followed by a long cooldown). Deliberately planned offensive ops are a different story-during Vietnam, the entire 7th Air Force often only managed one strike package a day in ideal conditions. Anyhow, the devs have already said they want to give scenario designers the option of different ready times for different conditions.
The loss rate you mentioned of over 33% in that one mission is totally unsustainable in conventional war. So with losses like those, they'll get sortie rates reduced by virtue of running out of fighters, either being shot down or held back to avoid a fruitless sacrifice. So, you have six aircraft taking off again. So far that's 22 sorties. With the original sixteen, so far that's-1.4 (rounded up) sorties per plane per day so far.
Now let's assume the next mission goes completely smoothly. No losses, no damage. Then all six go out and strike again. 28 sorties, sixteen planes. 1.75 sorties per plane per day. At this point there's undeniable wear because this is a frenzied surge. Now if you look at emsoy's post (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2230709&postcount=35), the 1.75 I calculated is lower than the surge ops rate for more modern fighters-undoubtedly skewed by the high losses in the first strike. This is for surge operations (frenzy-quick followed by a long cooldown). Deliberately planned offensive ops are a different story-during Vietnam, the entire 7th Air Force often only managed one strike package a day in ideal conditions. Anyhow, the devs have already said they want to give scenario designers the option of different ready times for different conditions.
Thank you for your answer
To clear something very important, I'm talking about the time at the base/carrier. from the fighter jet touch ground and to where it stand on the runway ready to take off
I do know it take time for a plane traveling from A to B and back and that's not the issue here.
I do also know that a plane need maintenance after so and so many flight hours, But that is not included in the game, which I wish there was.
Example. In a 4½ day scenario(Vampire Vampire) I let 2 F-14 and 2 F-18 guard the AWACS. None of these 4 fighter was engage in airbattle, when they had bingo fuel they return to the carrier and I order two earlier fighter jets take of. first two F-14 airborn until Bingofuel, before bingofuel I send the two F-18 up a.s.o a.s.o and none of these 4 fighter was removed due to maintenance in real life they would have been.
As I wrote before I do know how things work at a Swedish airbase, in peacetime and in an exercise(as it was a war going on= it is therefore I can't wait for emsoys explanation about the way it is done on a airbase/carrier and why it can take 5-6 hour or more depending the loadout.
Markus
Sometime I forget things when writing. it is true that a fighter jet may only have 1.2-2 sortier per day and that has to do with the time in air and/or maintenance or repair if damaged during airbattle or damaged from SAM's or AAA.
Markus
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