The future of Submarine simulations [Archive]

Rokko

01-24-13, 04:51 PM

Hi Folks,
first: I am not the type of hardcore subsimer like many people around here, I just get an urge every few years to get into it again and sink some ships using a bit of geometry or dive away from planes etc.
But still I always enjoyed this simulation genre. But what is the future of it?
I sincerely hope it is NOT going to be Silent Hunter Online, but after Silent Hunter 5 which probably was a total failure sales-wise, this seems to be a dying genre, unless you consider sticking to modded Silent Hunter 3 to 5, which admittely are still becoming better with very dedicated people actually patching these games using extremely difficult and pretty ineffective techniques (which is really astounding and great!)
In the last years it seemed that the simulation genre itself was becoming extinct (looking at the death of Microsoft Flight Simulator for example), but now it looks like a few companies have found themselves a niché in which they can produce high quality simulations that are actually profitable and thus sustainable.
Battlefront's Combat Mission series or 777 Studio's Rise Of Flight come to mind.
Couldn't something like that be possible for (WW2) Subsims as well? What are the developers of Silent Hunter 3-5 doing at the moment? I think it was Ubisoft Romania, any chance they might become independent and develop subsims themselves and publish them as well? That seems to be the only way it works today it seems to me, self-publishing that is.
Or maybe Ubisoft could sell the Silent Hunter franchise. Today I read about all the franchises that were sold to various publishers after the bankruptcy of THQ. I think SH would sell relatively cheaply so maybe another company could take it over from Ubisoft. The same thing happened with Rise of Flight and the new owners were pretty successfull in fixing this game up and generating profit with it. Unfortunately, that seems like an impropable scenario at the moment with Ubisoft still actively developing SHO, but maybe in a few years.

So what are your opinions on this? I have no clue how big the actual potential customer group for subsims is compared to flightsim (Rise of Flight/Il-2) or tactical combat sims (Combat Mission) but they're probably bigger, although I believe all Silent Hunter games managed to generate some interest from mainstream customers. Do you think a business like I described would be possible? Could the Franchise be taken over by some other company? What other possibilities are there on the horizon?

Cybermat47

01-24-13, 07:48 PM

If Silent Hunter was sold to another company, who actually tested their games, and released betas, I reckon that subsims would be stronger than ever.

Rokko

01-25-13, 03:33 AM

See? I think what is necessary for simulation gaming company (not including those crappy German "simulations" that get chucked out every few months)
is to have a realistic picture of how big the community is and adjust content (=development time involved) and pricing. Most hard core simulation gamers are willing to pay to more since they reckon that they will be much more involved with their favourite simulation than with your average 6-hour-singleplayer+crappy-multiplayer mainstream game.
And all these succesfull sims I've mentioned do it that way. I'd also include War in the East which sells for 80$ I think.
They also limit their sims content and sell extra content. Battlefront for instance sell their games at relatively high prices which also don't get much lower over time and now go more and more into selling extra content packages at also relatively high prices.
777 has taken a different approach with their Free2Play model where you pay pretty much for extra planes or maps or weapons. I can't say I like this much, but as long as it works and keeps the company alive and able to produce more high quality flight sims I'm totally fine with it.
Now with a new Silent Hunter (or maybe a revived version of SHV) it could be just like that. A submarine simulation going from 1939 to 1945 featuring every single (lets say German) boat and every theatre around the globe is probably unrealistic. But a well functioning TypVII simulation for which you can buy extra stuff like TypeII or TypeIX boats or more remote theatres or more "NPC" ships or planes could maybe work.
I at least would definately pay again for re-release of Silent Hunter 5 if it actually did all that the original promised (and was a bit more realistic in mission terms).

TorpX

01-25-13, 10:53 PM

I would certainly like to see something along these lines. Ideally, a PTO sim. and am willing to pay more to get a better quality product.

I think if it was done right, it could be successful. Perhaps, not overnight, but over time. A good WWII subsim could set the table for expansions with surface naval sims, different theaters, randomized campaigns, etc. I believe people would be willing to pay more for a good product.

Hinrich Schwab

01-26-13, 09:29 AM

If Silent Hunter was sold to another company, who actually tested their games, and released betas, I reckon that subsims would be stronger than ever.
I say that if SHO does poorly enough, have Subsim start a Kickstarter campaign to buy the rights from Ubisoft and make SH6 ourselves.

Julhelm

01-26-13, 12:49 PM

Wouldn't it be better to spend all the cash on development? I can't possibly imagine they'd sell the IP for cheap even if the games go poorly.

the_tyrant

01-26-13, 09:38 PM

silent hunter as an IP isn't really worth much I'm afraid

There are no iconic characters, and there is no original story.

Julhelm

01-27-13, 06:02 AM

BigBANGtheory

01-29-13, 08:33 AM

Neither does Homeworld, which is another beloved IP that so happens to be owned by Activision/Blizzard and so the chance of anyone buying it and making a new game is close to zero. Unfortunately these big corporations tend to hold on to stuff forever even if they have no plans to do anything with it.

I think you'll find that THQ owns it as it wasn't passed to Sega with its purchase of Relic.

Tbh I'm not sure I care too much about the SH brand, in some ways SHO would have benefited from not using it I think.

Julhelm

01-29-13, 05:19 PM

No Activison has it from buying up Sierra :(

Schmonzo

01-30-13, 03:25 PM

I say that if SHO does poorly enough, have Subsim start a Kickstarter campaign to buy the rights from Ubisoft and make SH6 ourselves.

A Kickstarter Subsim is really needed. I think it would really pay off for the devs and the players. I'd never thought I'd use this silly frase, but: I would throw money at my screen

Bilge_Rat

01-30-13, 03:28 PM

Subsims are dead.

Cybermat47

01-30-13, 04:04 PM

Subsims are dead.

Bilge_Rat, I am very dissapoint :nope:

We should just make our own! :D

Sonarman

01-30-13, 04:15 PM

Subsims are dead.

I think they are only "dead" because publishers don't want to make fund/them any more due to the risk/reward ratio... it's much easier to churn out an FPS/RTS or cute puppy game.

The market for subsims is still there. Most of the SH series achieved sales of around 300,000 which was considered a healthy number for a simulation game and sims have traditionally have had a longer shelf life than most other genre games. Ubi have developed SHO as a free to play primarily because they see the PC as being riddled with piracy, their CEO Yves Guillemot quoted a figure of 95%.

Ironically I believe in the case of SH5 it was their own "always on" anti piracy DRM scheme that negatively impacted on the sales which they may have wrongly attributed to piracy of the product resulting in a premature death of the dvd-rom series and the creation of Silent Hunter Online.

PL_Andrev

01-31-13, 11:57 AM

There is another interesting project - WarThunder (http://www.warthunder.com). At this moment this game is focused to the planes, but at the future the developers plan to add fleet units.

Some core ideas which may suggest submarine simulation available in the future:

There are some modes, and one of them is a 'simulation' (FRB) with limited ammo, view, physics model where player should control some features to avoid self-destroying,
Long time missions (for human controlled planes is 1 hour), or not limited time mission against AI,
Destroyers are "a light warship designed mostly to fight against enemy submarines and aircraft",

Hope dies last?
:hmmm:

No more detailed info at all.

Herr-Berbunch

01-31-13, 12:06 PM

Bilge_Rat, I am very dissapoint :nope:

We should just make our own! :D

You're young enough, go learn.

Personally, I'm waiting for DCS to realise they need a sub sim in their repertoire. :D

Blacklight

02-04-13, 04:09 AM

I seriously don't want ANOTHER Uboat sim. I'm so tired of World War II. Give me a nice Cold War subsim. I enjoy Dangerous Waters a LOT more than the Silent Hunter games and play it a LOT more. Cold War subsims are a totally untapped market! EVERYONE does World War II sims. I'm sick of them. I want my modern or Cold War era weapons systems and platforms!

My holy grails right now are 1. A new "Dangerous Waters", and 2. A new "Harpoon" (that actually works and isn't a buggy mess).

That said, I think that the game industry is only focused on "Mass Market" console games or apps for iPhones now. The tendancy now is to leave the PC's behind. PC game releases are getting rarer and rarer compared to console and smartphone games.

The other problem is, sadly, that I don't see us getting much in the way of "new blood" into the hardcore sim community. The younger people who we need to flow into the community are, for the most part, not attracted to games that are slow moving, and especially not ones where they have to read a manual to learn to play. Do you know how many people my Dangerous Waters manual has scared off from even giving the game a try? I'd love to give society the benefit of the doubt, but I just don't see the younger generation, that we need to bolster the community, having anywhere NEAR the attention span that's needed to play these games. I just don't see it.

This period that we're in now kind of feels like the way that the role playing game community dried up in the 90's. After a while, when I would go to a role playing game convention, it was just a bunch of us old guys there. There was a period where the younger people just weren't flowing in to keep it alive. Sadly, I see this happening with the hardcore sim community too. Most members are old and way outnumbers the new young blood.

In order to even get a company's interest in this, we're going to have to somehow attract new blood so that we can DEMONSTRATE our numbers and our interest.

So the question we should be asking is, "How can we attract younger gamers, and keep them engaged and interested?" and "How can we grow this community?"

The next best option would be some kind of "Kickstarter" campaign. But we're not going to get interest unless we show them that our community is large enough to maintain sales and is growing.

Maybe Subsim could become the next "Sonolysts"? I mean, we have plenty of REALLY smart people who know a LOT about modern naval stuff here. I'm sure that we have people who know how to make great game graphics here. Maybe Subsim should become a forum, AND a subsim creation collective?

Kaleun_Endrass

02-04-13, 09:31 AM

The next best option would be some kind of "Kickstarter" campaign. But we're not going to get interest unless we show them that our community is large enough to maintain sales and is growing.

Maybe Subsim could become the next "Sonolysts"? I mean, we have plenty of REALLY smart people who know a LOT about modern naval stuff here. I'm sure that we have people who know how to make great game graphics here. Maybe Subsim should become a forum, AND a subsim creation collective?
I have a very similar thought of this in my mind for a long time now. I think that we won't get another sub sim game from a game studio (independent or publisher-bound) because we (submarine playing PC gamers) are a too small niche for them to start a financially risky project. After experienced SH3 to SH5, SHO isn't a sub sim gameplay-wise for me and I think for most of the other members too.
So the only solution is and will be: "develop our own sub sim".
There are just 3 options to do that:
1) just start the project (open-source or behind closed doors, doesn't matter)
3) start a crowd-funding project to hire a game studio
2) start a crowd-funding project to buy SH5 (what wouldn't work because of Ubi and SHO, so there are actually 2 options only)

Each option has pro and cons and I strongly believe that none option will work all alone. But i think that a good mix of 1) and 2) with the constant influence of our community and under the patronage of SUBSIM, which would for instance allow new members fill gaps where dev-team members quit, will work. Such a project should be SUBSIM-based because here all the flotillas and the submarine communities around the web are participating and can bring in man-power. SUBSIM-based would definitely bring in more support. Using a public part of the forum for reports of the development process, binding the community to the project and attract "new blood" and a closed area for the devs only would be working great (I experienced such a method back in my 9th-flotilla times, a german subsim forum, when we were doing SH3 mods and it worked very good).

Unfortunately I have to disappoint you Blacklight. A Uboat subsim should be the first goal to approach because with this theme we know the most technically. We have countless more resources for uboats, PTO submarines and the whole WW2 era than for modern warfare and modern naval weapon systems.
I have to admit that a cold war era and modern subs tempt me and one important feature of our self-made subsim game has to be a modular architecture where you can do campaign-based content and systems (DLL, scripts, assets, etc.) So it would be possible to create a cold-war campaign later on or parallel by enthusiasts.

As I mentioned above I have that thought of building an own submarine simulation for a long time now (to be honest since half year after SH3 was released). Over time there were similar threads like this one but the necessarity to stick more to this topic was never greater than now, because few years back SH4 and SH5 were in sight. But now there is nothing comparable anywhere, no projects like Danger from the Deep, no total conversation mods whatsoever. It's good to see that more people are interested in keeping our genre alive and start such forum threads.

I've backed and am following the development of Star Citizen by legendary Chris Roberts right now and over there I've got some pretty good ideas for how to do a SUBSIM sub sim.
And right here the very important question is raised: Will SUBSIM (Neal Stevens) support such a project?

tonibamestre

02-04-13, 12:24 PM

Well,suggest you to have a look to Vehicle Simulator from Illan Pappini. Have quite lot of potential concerning Aeronaval stuff,and even AJ Weber has put a close eye into it in order to build new naval platforms ( surface+submarine ) for it.
Imagine we could improve the game with more effects,full combat capability and life detection/weapon systems for each platform.

Can be an interesting future :salute:

MAXLD

02-04-13, 02:02 PM

We need the submarine equivalent to this:

Project C.A.R.S. :
- http://www.wmdportal.com/projects/cars/

Community created, PC focused, best graphics possible, best physics possible, all the realism we can put into it, continuous community based feedback and testing.
And it would certainly be cheaper, without having to pay for official licenses (cars brands, tracks, in that case) and other things.

We have a tremendous mod community that always fixed SH games along the years with impressive results... completely transforming them and adding the features we always wanted with great detail and accuracy.

All this time we have been demanding those tons of things that Ubisoft doesn't want to deliver because is not profitable in their eyes. SHO is the ultimate chance for them to make money out of the franchise... they tried dumbing it down in "SHV" to make a few more bucks and they are now desperate to make it even more reachable to casual gamers and cash some real money. We all know how big companies work.

If we want something done the way we want, we might have to do it ourselves. Subsim community is still very large and I think it can be done. :salute:

stormrider_sp

02-04-13, 02:29 PM

Should the future of Subsims only be limited to WW2 era?
How about modern subsim?

JustinReg

02-04-13, 03:33 PM

I say that if SHO does poorly enough, have Subsim start a Kickstarter campaign to buy the rights from Ubisoft and make SH6 ourselves.

Yes a kickstarter project is probably our best hope, but no to buying the name Silent Hunter. Why blow a shed load of money on a name that means nothing.

New game, new name.

There are a lot of talented coders here that make great mods. Can't the Grey Wolves or some other similar group start a studio and head to kickstarter. I'd back a project that was properly managed.

I'd also buy into the Minecraft model, I'll pay very early on, when there is only 1 sub and 1 ocean and hardly any features, but the games development continues to a 1.0 version with everything in.

I'd like a full on WWII sim with multiple nationalities subs (US, Brit, Dutch, Italian, Japanese, German), with the whole war and world modeled. I prefer looking and shooting at things with my Mk1 eyeball than watching waterfall displays.

Rokko

02-04-13, 04:57 PM

The idea is not to get the name "Silent Hunter' but the franchise with all rights associated with it. That would probably good since SH5 has a solid foundation, it's just messed up when you go into detail.

Kaleun_Endrass

02-04-13, 05:49 PM

Yes a kickstarter project is probably our best hope, but no to buying the name Silent Hunter.

And then what? A kickstarter project to reach what goals? I'm sorry, but all those messages I read about crowd-funding are without concepts. What will you do with the money?
If you think of hiring a game studio, the first thing would be to have an offer or to know the costs for development to set up your kickstarter goals. And if you take a look at kickstarter projects without some stuff to show and attract backers there are no backers. What do we have other than our wishes right now?

I like the suggestion of MAXLD and his link to wmdportal.com
Unfortunately, there is just that one project, but the concept is interesting. A subsim project similar to the CARS project might be a good way to get our game done. But again it should be under the patronage of SUBSIM.com to essemble a strong developer team and raise interest in the whole community.

I strongly believe that the subsim we dream of can only be done by the community. We have a bunch of really good 3d artists and programmers here. With high professional tools available (for free) like CryENGINE3 and ScaleForm it's possible to achieve the quality of an AAA game. There might be crunchpoints and stumbling blocks along the development process and right there could a game studio assist that get payed by crowd-funded money.

Blacklight

02-04-13, 06:39 PM

I still want my modern subsim. I'm VERY tired of being stuck in World War II all the time. What about developing an open source subsim that's modular, kind of like the "Orbiter" of subsims where you could just have a repository of platforms and scenery to download and put in. That way, you could probably organize a campaign in any era you would want. Even possible futures.

I think that using Dangerous Waters as a model for this, with all it's panels of controls and interface would be an excellent control interface to emulate. It's simple and works efficiently.

We would also want a mission editor (of course) that's similar to Dangerous Waters where you can set up missions anywhere in the world with a topographical map of the earth in it as well as the ability to scrip campaigns that could last years similar to Silent Hunter III and IV.

I don't think Fancy Fancy graphics would even be needed. I'm perfectly fine with Dangerous Waters-like graphics, maybe with an upgrade to bring them in line to where SHIII is.
There's a reason I'm saying this. We would want this subsim to be playable by as many people as possible because, frankly, our fan base is so small, that we need every person we can get. Not everyone is going to have the latest and greatest video cards. So this sim should be made to run on older systems as well as new ones. This will maximize the number of people who can play it.

Karl Heinrich

02-04-13, 07:08 PM

Some very good suggestions here, and given the diversity of interests (WW2 v cold war... and what about WWI :P), an approach akin to X-Plane or similar which is more modular would be the way forward - however this runs the risk of becoming generic I suppose.

Either way I wholly support a community project whatever its form, and would be happy to contribute in whatever way that I can. As long as there is support for multiple monitors showing multiple interfaces I will be a very happy chap :)

Blacklight

02-04-13, 07:34 PM

Orbiter would seriously be a good model to follow for an effor like this.

DedEye

02-04-13, 07:52 PM

I strongly agree, any new subsim should do its best to distance itself from the Silent Hunter series.

After SH 5 I vowed I would not buy (or F2P) another Ubisoft product unless it was met with universal critical acclaim from both the press and the community.

I think it says a lot about the mindset of a company when its executive makes a statement that 95% of their customers steal from them. You seriously believe that? Incredible...... and insulting.

They release bug riddled software with broken or missing features, kick out a token patch or 2 that fixes issues that often have already been solved by modders, leave the hard coded bugs in, and walk away. Not just once, 4 times in the SH franchise alone. Cliffs of Dover worked out really well too didn't it? Glad I passed on that one.

Why would I keep supporting a company that behaves in such a way?

Btw, I feel bad for the guys on the ground who worked so hard on them.

The great thing about sims though is the fans tend to be very passionate about their hobby. I have little doubt that there is a group of people out there with big ideas for the next great subsim! Well there is here already!

I think there is still a market for a good (both quality & substance) subsim. I think if one were to appear, it would be very successful, and have large and dedicated folllowing.

I'm willing to wait, have many times :03:

Wrt to aircraft, Rise of Flight is very good; I wait for sales to buy aircraft. I hear there's a deal in the works for a "real" sequel to Il2 as well :rock:

MAXLD

02-04-13, 08:01 PM

Personally I don't see the point in a modern subsim... current subs are for intimidation regarding missiles launch and not much else, and with so much tech, would it even be challenging or exciting to hunt, position and fire torpedos like the good old days with low tech and duds? I think I doubt it... :hmmm

I would be happy with:
- a full WWII historically accurate campaign (in several theatres of the war and possible playable factions (Germany, US, British, Japan)(would demand a lot of work, though), providing plenty of scenarios and zones to patrol.

- or maybe a German one until the end of the war, with a follow up & made up story of our character being secretly recruited by US or USSR to fight an hypothetical conflict between the two powers of the Cold War for some time... wouldn't be so "Cold" then, nor historically accurate, but would provide a feasible scenario to those of you that are fed up with WWII and would want something else. Not so interesting, though.

Anything different than that (meaning: modern subs), it's a clear no go for me. But that's just my personal opinion. :)

Good graphics are an important factor and any engine out there gives the ability to lower the settings to those who don't have the full power on their PC's. Not only the game should look good to us, but would attract more people to buy the game later. Not saying it should be Crysis 1 like, but I wouldn't accept nothing less or equal than SHIII on highest settings... I would want some nice details when the ship is hit and goes to the bottom and take some nice screenshots/videos that would help promote the game a lot.

After the basic stable version and beta completed, it would be added on Steam (by Greenlight, probably), a lot of people would buy it full price and on Steam sales. (EuroTruck Simulator was Greenlit, for example, and is doing nicely and selling a lot more than it would if it wasn't there).

Der_Meister

02-05-13, 12:23 AM

Kickstarter is the best option our Subsim community has, and frankly, the only option I believe. Building a sim from the ground up is not like modding. Kickstart will provide the funds, motivation and (more importantly) cohesion to create a finished product.

Kaleun_Endrass

02-05-13, 03:07 AM

Kickstarter is the best option our Subsim community has, and frankly, the only option I believe. Building a sim from the ground up is not like modding.
Again, here is one throwing in the "kickstarter" thing without a concept behind. What will you do with the money?
Kickstart will provide the funds, motivation and (more importantly) cohesion to create a finished product.To whom? That's what I mean with "without concept".

If you want to hire a game studio then they would work as long as there's money. The result they would deliver is a (modable) black box because of copyrights and related rights and intellectual property rights. For different campaigns (WW1, WW2, Cold War) we would definately need the full source code to add stuff (f.i. a new type of event trigger) or change certain program behaviour that isn't scriptable.
What you can do is hire freelancers to built up the basic structure and program needed tools. But the game assets, 3D models, sounds, etc. would have to be done by participating community members (or again by freelancers).

tonibamestre

02-05-13, 03:08 PM

I dont know really the amount of sub or naval simmers here around but,we could rejoin forces and make a common investment in order to bring alive something NEW AND AMAZING !
I want to be one of that investors.

Shiplord

02-05-13, 03:35 PM

I strongly believe that the subsim we dream of can only be done by the community. We have a bunch of really good 3d artists and programmers here. With high professional tools available (for free) like CryENGINE3 and ScaleForm it's possible to achieve the quality of an AAA game.

The team of the Open Source Subsim Danger from the Deep (http://dangerdeep.sourceforge.net/gallery/) had already asked several times for help here and in other forums, but no one has shown real interest in joining the team.

Blacklight

02-05-13, 05:24 PM

Like I said earlier, the best bet would be to REALLY make the sim modular like "Orbiter" is. VERY modular. That way, the new subsim could end up being like a "build your own subsim". Simply have the actual engine that handles the physics and campaign scripting and leave scenery, and platform building to the modders. That way, there would be no disappointment. The WW2 subsim people could have their WW2 subsim. The people who want a modern subsim could have their modern or Cold War subsim.

I think this would be the best way of building the sim. That way, you would only have to write the physics engine and the system for running and keeping track of the movements of ships and scripted events. The modders could build the platforms and ships. Heck. Make it so the stats of the modder made ships are tweakable in case you feel that you should tweak a setting or two if you don't like how the modder set things. It would work out really well this way. It would make the sim open to a LOT of different possibilities.

"Orbiter" is the perfect model for a prject like this.

Another feature that I would love to see added, in addition to the multiplayer possibilities is a multistation multiplayer like what Dangerous Waters has where you can have multiple people in each platform operating their own stations. This would be a fun feature in a subsim set in ANY time period.

tonibamestre

02-06-13, 07:50 AM

What we would need on a first start for a project like this :

1- GLOBAL COVERAGE
2- ACCURATE SRTM + BATHIMETRY DATA
3- DOWNLOADABLE WEATHER CONDITIONS/SEA STATE SLAVED TO SURFACE WIND.

makman94

02-06-13, 01:04 PM

The team of the Open Source Subsim Danger from the Deep (http://dangerdeep.sourceforge.net/gallery/) had already asked several times for help here and in other forums, but no one has shown real interest in joining the team.

thats true Shiplord as far as i know too.
the answer to this is ,imo, becuase no programmers ever involved in modding sh series. all mods so far (with some brilliant exeptions like H.sie's and Stiebler .exe fixes and now some fixes at the .exe from TDW for the sh5) were more called enhancements to the existed untouched sh's engines.

i don't think that the guys from Danger from the Deep (http://dangerdeep.sourceforge.net/gallery/) needed anything like this (judging from their work so far).
the big 'problem' to projects like these is finding talended programmers , all the rest(3d's models and 2d's images) is just a matter of time to be done and yes,there are a lot of talented modders around here to help at this part and complete it

scissors

02-07-13, 12:26 PM

I see these discussions a bit , At the Root is a wish to see SH move forward .. Cited as bottlenecks are the communities lack of interest ,, Ubisofts lack of interest .. The youths lack of interest .. Lack of money . lack of a plan .. and so on ..
I have a cure i think ..
And i think Its going to be done sooner or later somehow anyway .... Its basically who will profit from this and why .. I think ..

Imagine If you will.. Steam controlling the downloaded game market .. Not too hard to imagine at all because they already do .. .. Imagine if You could download, and install Mods directly through steam.... For a price ( call it DLC ) Which is done also . Modders get paid ,, which means .....
More baddass mods ..
It would also open up Modding To a huge segment of people who wouldnt otherwise even know what modding is.. I could go on and explain all the perceived benefits I see but im probably missing something ( Usually am) ..

Sonarman

02-07-13, 01:02 PM

,imo, becuase no programmers ever involved in modding sh series. all mods so far (with some brilliant exeptions like H.sie's and Stiebler .exe fixes and now some fixes at the .exe from TDW for the sh5) were more called enhancements to the existed untouched sh's engines.

Not quite, An independent programmer was hired by Subsim and given access by Ubisoft to the source code of Destroyer Command and Silent Hunter II in an effort to replace the multiplayer code in both games when the game's existing RTime engine was dropped by it's developer (Sony). The resulting patch was known as "Project Messerwetzer".

hellfish6

02-08-13, 08:20 AM

I think before anyone gets too crazy with this, the simulation community really has to realize that it is it's own worst enemy. Not just subsims, but tanks, and especially flight sims. The sim communities are fairly small but exceedingly vocal and all too often just plain disrespectful of development efforts, especially given how few games are out there. As long as there is money to be made in simulations, somebody will be making them. You guys need to understand that nobody will ever make your perfect sim. The best you can hope for is that somebody will make a good enough sim. Don't go threatening the goose after it lays a bronze or silver egg.

rocker_lx

02-08-13, 11:27 AM

I just want to point out that I'm a member at wmdportal and project c.a.r.s.

Project cars is not a community developed game. The community is just testing the game builds and giving input in which direction the game should go. Later on there will be scripting acces where the community can do stuff and artwork like skins. The game is developed by professional studio called Slightly Mad Studios best knows for their need for speed : shift games.

I don't see a lot of chance for community build game as it's a huuge lot of work to be done, no one will pay for such a project on kickstarter except some people from this community which will not be enough to fund the development of such a game.

I'm a graphic whore, and expect for a new u-boat game gfx ,which are at least, on par with SH5. This would be hard to do for non professional developpers. (Could perhaps be solved by using a middleware as unity ,unreal engine, or cryengine... the free versions of the 2 last ones)

Beardmoresam

02-08-13, 12:35 PM

Julhelm

02-08-13, 07:47 PM

And that's the kind of feature list that will require a budget of tens of millions at the very least to develop.

hellfish6

02-10-13, 01:30 PM

I reckon that the key points would have to be:
- SH4 style dynamic map, but fixed so that it is not a "flat world".
- Better than DW sensor simulation
- The ability to walk around your sub, even if you can't talk to your crew, probably stick to SH4 quality graphics as not everyone has a million dollar graphics card.
- Far more control over the sub systems, e.g. you can manage the engines or motors, trim, ect your self or let the assigned crew members do it.
- DW style map with built in TMA (Maybe talk to the MOBO creator).
- Better damage models.

I think the better way to go about it is to try to see if ubi will sell subsim their source code for SH4.

Again, why the simming community is it's own worst enemy. I can't imagine the percentage of players who want to play with valves and circuit boards would be above 5%, but those 5% will scream to high hell if they don't get that feature. It's just not fun. That's like playing an FPS and pulling fire watch or cleaning your weapon. And what's the point of walking around a submarine? Especially if it isn't interactive in any way? The point of submarine games is to sink ships. You can't sink ships if you're looking at a poorly scanned, low-res copy of a pin-up girl in the radio room. I dunno, I never played SH5, so maybe they did something with this to make it useful.

Julhelm

02-10-13, 04:54 PM

Sonarman

02-10-13, 07:00 PM

How about approaching Ilan Papini developer of the Virtual Sailor series as tonibamestre suggested with a Kickstarter proposal for a purely multi-player (up to 24 players) game built upon Virtual Sailor/Vehicle Simulator. He would not develop any ai routines (not his speciality anyway) but rather take on the easier task of modelling ships systems and weaponry: hydrophones, ASDIC, torpedo station , gunnery, damage control etc. As a purely multi-player game it would be just as easy to have surface fleet battles as well as sub/anti-sub actions.

redline202

02-10-13, 09:31 PM

Hello subsim heroes! :)
Such a great ideas here, just want to say...i would be more than happy to donate or pay for a real open source subsim from you guys than to pay for another miserable ubisoft project whose goal is only to make money.

tonibamestre

02-11-13, 04:05 AM

Vehicle Simulator is an excellent multipurpose platform and,well, I m not modelling talented but been told that 3D models, vessels or sceneries are quite easyer to build than into other Sims.

I really think it well worth a TRY !

BigBANGtheory

02-11-13, 02:12 PM

I would be perfectly happy with something along the lines of Seawolf or Red Storm Rising being given a graphics and interface overhaul, like what Xenonauts have done with X-Com. For WW2 subs model it on Silent Service gameplay with a touch of Pirates!

The thing is, any indie sub game that can stand any chance of getting through development and actually ship some copies will have to go back to where we began and build from there because the budget to match even SH3 graphics, amount of content or systems fidelity is not going to happen.

The only reason there are 3rd party devs developing hi-fidelity modules for FSX and DCS is because both those engines have evolved over decades of shipped iterations and even then noone knows if the hi-fidelity DCS modules will actually turn a profit with the magnitude more work they require compared to those in FSX. And this is considering these guys do not have to develop physics, campaign or other gameplay-critical systems from scratch because it's all there.

No such engine framework exists for the sub community so anything would have to be made from scratch. Even if middleware like Unity were used, all those systems would have to be developed from scratch. There's simply more to developing a sim than platform fidelity alone. So IMO it is not realistic to match or exceed what has been done with SH4/5 unless you have a budget like UBI.

I'll pretty much agree with all of that.

What I would add though is that PC gamers/owners on the whole do not appreciate the effort required to develop current software but at the same time haven't invested 1000's £ $ etc in hardware to sold on something that doesn't utilise it.

What I find interesting is that the gaming community is spanning ever wider age groups due to owners of the first home computers sticking with their hobby. Older gamers I think are more naturally drawn to the simulator, less inclined into software piracy and are prepared to pay for what they get. Sooner or later we will see games produced and marketed for this gamer and SubSims tick a fair few boxes :salute:

tommo8993

02-14-13, 06:46 PM

PL_Andrev

02-15-13, 01:43 PM

What if we(subsim) started a kick starter page for a highly detailed game concept. Then appealed for a developer. We put out word on all the gaming sites. Sure some developer would pick it up. So the developer has money waiting for them. I would pay...

Look at the UBI: players have suggestedseveral times with mods:
- playable warships,
- other submarines (Japanese, British mods)
- and finally Destroyer Command 2 mode

What was the result?
- extra paid patch for SH4 (1.5)
- a big step back with Silent Hunter 5

There are no chance to release good & hard submarine sim now. But there are more interesting concepts on the game market based at the Navy world. Maybe we'll find something better than SH series.
No so hard sim, but more playable game than SH series.

Sonarman

02-15-13, 01:50 PM

What if we(subsim) started a kick starter page for a highly detailed game concept. Then appealed for a developer. We put out word on all the gaming sites. Sure some developer would pick it up. So the developer has money waiting for them. I would pay...

Like maybe these guys... on the Unity forums a while back Subsim super modder Hans Witteman (uboat HAHD (http://www.u-boot-hahd.com/)) had a very interesting response to his team's post (http://forum.unity3d.com/threads/127901-U-boat-simulation) on a mooted subsim project...

"Hi Hans,

My main question for you is there a business plan and any available funding for this project?

I know the original lead programmer and designer, Bill Becker, of the very first Silent Hunter and he is available (around 25 years of experience and about your age). The lead artist is also a good friend of ours but he's mostly tied up with a 9 to 5 job but certainly available for your reference. I am also an expert in Unity, with 20 years professional game experience (primarily programming) and I'm currently working on an underwater game and I could answer most technical questions you have. We both come from a heavy simulations background, myself having worked on Gunship 2000 and F-15 Strike Eagle III back in the day, and Bill has worked on a ridiculous number of simulation titles as that is his specialty.

I went through most of your site and can tell that you are extremely passionate and serious about this project. If you can let us know more about your background (commercial projects are of greatest interest) and your team members we could probably put together quite a powerful team. We have access to many of the developers from the old MicroProse Software days, including business development. For a AAA game you need serious resources in business, marketing and distribution so we want to make sure you have the whole picture covered and how we might best work together."

Don Goddard

Presumably the artist of which they speak is the legendary Kim Biscoe who worked on Pirates! Gold, Silent Service II, Great Naval Battles 1,2,3 &4, Silent Hunter, Silent Hunter II and on the radar & sonar screens of Destroyer Command as well as many other sims.

Go to agree with Antar here too this time we really need playable surface units included, even if it's purely a multiplayer game with no AI.

tommo8993

02-15-13, 06:06 PM

If the site sets up a kickstarter page and then appeals to a game developer or even with the money raised hire a developer. A good developer i'm sure we could get what we wanted.

tsotha

02-17-13, 01:45 AM

I seriously don't want ANOTHER Uboat sim. I'm so tired of World War II. Give me a nice Cold War subsim.

But WW II sims have some pretty big advantages. For one, the whole environment changes between 1939 and 1945. You get sent right to the bottom if you're using 1939 tactics in 1945. How much have tactics changed since the invention of TAS?

Also, you're not going to actually do much in a cold war sim. No fiddling with the TDC - it's all computerized. Attacks are made from beyond periscope range, so there's nothing to see.

And a hot war in that era is over in a few days, max. There's no six years of increasingly dangerous duty.

Going the other way, a WW I sim is going to be pretty boring as well, but for different reasons. ASW is still in its infancy, so there isn't much danger until the war enters its third year. Hell, doctrine was to motor up to the victim, order its crew into lifeboats, and sink the ship with explosives placed by a boarding party. It isn't until the last year or so of the war that you had much to fear from the enemy. How is that going to be turned into an interesting game?

My holy grails right now are 1. A new "Dangerous Waters", and 2. A new "Harpoon" (that actually works and isn't a buggy mess).

Amen to a new "Harpoon". I loved that game, especially after they got most of the bugs worked out.

Maybe Subsim could become the next "Sonolysts"? I mean, we have plenty of REALLY smart people who know a LOT about modern naval stuff here. I'm sure that we have people who know how to make great game graphics here. Maybe Subsim should become a forum, AND a subsim creation collective?

I don't know enough about subs to make a modern sim, but if other people did the artsy stuff I can do some of the programming. I still think the best bet would be to buy the SH5 code base from Ubi and then finish it. Otherwise it's a years-long project, just like it was for Ubi.

tsotha

02-17-13, 01:50 AM

The team of the Open Source Subsim Danger from the Deep (http://dangerdeep.sourceforge.net/gallery/) had already asked several times for help here and in other forums, but no one has shown real interest in joining the team.

Based on what I see on sourceforge it looks like that project petered out over two years ago. They claimed to have a playable alpha, though, so it could be restarted.

Schakal_U109

02-17-13, 09:54 AM

Hi Guys,

the idea of creating a own subsim sounds great. But it is not as easy as it sounds in the begining, and some of you already told about the risks and problems. But which options do we have!? :

1st - We took a game like SH2/DC or SH3 and make a list of what we have to change to make a good sim (graphics, realism, gameplay etc....) >>> then look what we need for this >>> how much money is needed for this >>> wo can realise it (community + a professional studio) >>> try to find someone
Biggest problem for this: The gamerights belong to Ubisoft. We can try to give them a concept or to get the permission of them to recreate their game...

2nd - Search a game which is already modder-friendly and has the possability to create a naval game (Virtual Sailor !? don't know such games very good). The do the same like on top, create a list of what we want and what is needed for realising this >>> Coast budget > award a contract

3rd - Creat an completly new game from stock. But if that should be a sucess we need the help of some professionals who can realise this. If we have a basic game, the modding community can build it up like we want it.

4th - Look how other games are made: At first there is someone with an "Idea". Then someone makes a script of it. And then he goes with his ideas and scripts to the gamestudios and perhaps someone will make it.
So, why can't we do this!? We can create a completley new script of a Subsim. New ideas an concepts like we want it. Then we have to write it into a form that some studios can have a look at it. There are two options:
We collect the needed money from our community and give the contract to a gamestudio OR the concept is so great that a gamestudio itself will make the game. Or perhaps a bit of both!?

Why not try it!?
Sorry for my english, hope you can understand what i want to say with that. But if we talk about such a project, we need to know what are our possabilities and how we can realise them. What Ideas do you have? Don't you think, our BIG community can do such a project!? I think, YES WE CAN :know::up:

Julhelm

02-17-13, 06:30 PM

Also, you're not going to actually do much in a cold war sim. No fiddling with the TDC - it's all computerized. Attacks are made from beyond periscope range, so there's nothing to see.
That's just not true.

Karl Heinrich

02-18-13, 07:56 AM

I think with the WW2 v Cold War issue, it would need to be a modular system that can provide both (similar to X-Plane for Flight Sims, the engine provides the enviroment and it can be populated with what you put in it essentially) and any community-led game is likely to be more open to enable this than a commercially-driven one. So I don't think there should be too much debate about that one. Similarly this approach would easily enable the implementation of surface ships (I say easily, this is all pretty abstract and relative at the moment of course).

Eseentially, I think a focus on the core, shared elements first so a potentially great project like this doesn't get slowed down by discussion as to whether it should be WW2 or Cold War or anything else

PL_Andrev

02-18-13, 02:50 PM

1st - We took a game like SH2/DC or SH3 and make a list of what we have to change to make a good sim (graphics, realism, gameplay etc....) >>> then look what we need for this >>> how much money is needed for this >>> wo can realise it (community + a professional studio) >>> try to find someone
Biggest problem for this: The gamerights belong to Ubisoft. We can try to give them a concept or to get the permission of them to recreate their game...

The best idea is a game source code from older productions like SH2/DC, SH3 or Enigma:RT.
But no access for it. Unfortunately.

2nd - Search a game which is already modder-friendly and has the possability to create a naval game (Virtual Sailor !? don't know such games very good). The do the same like on top, create a list of what we want and what is needed for realising this >>> Coast budget > award a contract
Let's calculate:
20 programmers, 12-month term, year market salary 60.000$ = 1.200.000 $ total budget
:o
Who pays?

3rd - Creat an completly new game from stock. But if that should be a sucess we need the help of some professionals who can realise this. If we have a basic game, the modding community can build it up like we want it.
The example of "Danger of the Deep" show us that is it team order not for few fans only but for whole community. Project was cancelled at 0.5 verion.

4th - Look how other games are made: At first there is someone with an "Idea". Then someone makes a script of it. And then he goes with his ideas and scripts to the gamestudios and perhaps someone will make it.
Now I see only one candidate: WarThunder (fleet in development) - the engine and game concept allows to put submarines / destroyers there.

tommo8993

02-19-13, 07:23 PM

for a game engine, unreal looks surprisingly well
http://www.indiedb.com/games/seacraft

finchOU

02-19-13, 09:16 PM

Well I've argued before that what the SH series lacked in general was competition. Not one serious contender to supplant AOD besides UBI. Competition kind of creates a checks and balance system as to not release a buggy or incomplete game. Something I don't think UBI had done once with the Silent Hunter series.
I can't speak to programming or development aspects of making a Sim from scratch. What I can tell you is that if someone did start a SH6 type of Uboat sim from the ground up...where would be issues with the community. Too many Chiefs and self described experts trying to via for selfish inclusions and endless streams of "suggestions". I think the only way it works with a community so dedicated to the cause.....is to poll the crap out of the community as to focus in one direction. Release a statement of what they are going to build with exactly what features. Then let it be and let development go and do their thing. The biggest let down with the Silent Hunter series IMHO has been the lack of progression (or straight up regression (post MODs to new game development) of core game play aspects, lack of testing (buggy incomplete games), over focus of graphics and RPG specifics, and general lack of support post release. I always felt that after playing AOD in my younger years....that the next step in Uboat sims would be amazing. While the graphics didnt disappoint. ......most everything else did.
If I was a first time PC gamer that didn't know any better, didn't know of SUBSIM.com and MODs, and played SH5 stock. I'd be turned off within hours....never to return to WW2 subsims.

So I think Silent Hunter series or UBI needs to die. The progress has been lackluster based on where it started in Dynamix's AOD. Which they obviously didn't play or refused to follow. Had they just made AOD with better graphics, it would have been a huge success in SH2. SH3 was much better (MODs made it AOD part 2...without some easy immersion that AOD had.... victory flags, bar inport with news, attempt a wolfpacks). SH4 ...buggy (i hear), then SH5.. .which was a huge step forward in graphics (at least for the series, and a huge step back in core aspects and was boarder line unplayable out of the box. It proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that the series has been completely comfortable in its unchecked (read: competition) post release "let Subsim fix it" mentality...and that the series was more or less done. As harsh as it sounds...and as much as everyone owes UBI for trying .... it's the truth. Am I telling anyone anything they don't know? Probably not. Am I an untalented (at least programming wise) whiny person complaining on the WWW? you bet. But I've spend a lot of money on crap...and I've still yet to see the type of quality I used to see in a sim released in the 90's. I do heart :subsim: ...as I'd would have left uboat sims had I not discovered it while struggling to grasp how bad SH2 was. It gives me hope.... maybe when someone with passion, a bank roll, and community backing can reinvent the Uboat sim. It's hard to see with our 'got to have it now' world view....but maybe. I'm still hopeful that when I retire in 30 years or whatever I could be engrossed in a Sim as much as I was in AOD. Until then....Don't give up the Ship! hehe

BigBANGtheory

02-22-13, 11:39 AM

sidslotm

02-23-13, 03:27 PM

Personally I love the silent hunter. When I bought the first copy years ago, this was an accident by they way and it me took several attempts at playing before I found I was hooked.

Looking back I ask myself what was it about the sim that reeled me in, it was the western approaches and the North sea. The shallows where uboats first operated that had me hooked. Without the added feature of ocean depth the only survival technique was stealth on the continental shelf around the British Isles where the waters may only be 50 meters deep, this is the challenge I personally find alluring, how those men did this amazes me.

Of coarse this will be different for everyone who plays, some may like the big convoy attacks and diving further than anyone has yet managed and survived. Again the excitement can be addictive taking your boat down another 30 meters when your already at 175 m. Then there are the spy drops, photo ops etc etc, but it really does't go a lot further as far as scenarios go, personally speaking.

Seems to me a complete rethink is needed for SH, a fresh set of minds to capture a new and daring generation of Captains into the service. The big failure of SH5 is the lack of the type IXC of coarse, it's probably Ubi's single biggest mistake, I always hoped for an addon to be released but Ubi had already cut their cloth as it were and that's exactly what I mean by a rethink of production and marketing, the lack of imagineering. If you what to know what SH5 should have been, load up SH4 with Uboat missions along with Lurkers Operation Monsun mod and try crossing the Bay of Biscay in 1943, you'll understand what I mean. This is how SH5 should have been, difficult and hard core. Ubi could have done a lot worse if they had offered Lurker a place on their thinktank before launching SH5.

I now only use two mods on SH5, Dynamic Enviroment and a little enhancement put together myself to improove the type VII using some od Sobers seaworthy mods and SteelVikings interiors, these give me the playability I like. I hope there will be another generation of Silent Hunter, but without some clear and fresh thinking it will be pointless sad to say.

thruster

02-24-13, 06:33 AM

ok too much wine tonight, but im gunna lash out anyway...
i think im a perfect demographic for SH franchise. but the online requirement gig just killed me. i worked [then] in a place of very poor internet, there was no way i couldve sustained a constant reasonable line to get into SH. i utterly adored SH3, was wasted by the pointlessness of bad antisub of IJN inherant in PTO SH4 and couldnt wait till SH5.
by the time my work situ settled, and even when SH5 ? lost its internet req, it was too late. there was so much modding going on [which is awesome, please please please dont stop that] i was just lost and didnt know where to start?
i love campaigns, i love the 'immersion' that i think [at least till WW2 tank sims wake up] only subsims [SH3-modded] give. i think ubisoft killed opportunities by their on-line requirement, and alienated a % of its customers [regardless of their motives, im one of them!].
to me the magic of subsims is that to a sub cmdr [especially a ww2 uboat commander, no matter how many boats were supposed to be in his wolfpack] he still operated on his own. he made the point of attack and the cunning escape a recipe of his own. modded, it was seriously PLAUSIBLY realistic! i think, modded, SH3 caught that; and its what vanilla subsims should aim for.
i have missed SH5. i regard this as tragic. im not in the generation of computer fluency, i struggle with simple stuff and despite having an IRL life altering occupation, cant be assumed to have simple knowledge of computers. i need an utter IDIOTS spell-it-out guide to manipulate mods.
i look fwd to SH6, or perhaps its intricately explained modded SH5 offline version that eludes me.
i am an end user. i am a subsim fan. this was my voice. that was my 'soapbox'.
cheers to you all.

Singed

02-25-13, 12:25 AM

A big step in improving their relations with my tiny little part of the PC community would be sell me something I can play. No stupid DRM, no having to log in to something like uplay, I can find communities to game with on my own (hello subsim.com!), I just want to buy the game and play it.

The big failure of SH5 is the lack of the type IXC of coarse, it's probably Ubi's single biggest mistake, I always hoped for an addon to be released but Ubi had already cut their cloth as it were and that's exactly what I mean by a rethink of production and marketing, the lack of imagineering.

I'd have been really happy with a type VII sim, even just restricted to say a VIIC, to me the big failure (once you get past all the release issues, DRM and bugs) is the entire campaign layer. They had some awesome examples of good campaigns coming from the modders in SH3 and SH4, GWX and RFB + RSRDC are my favorites, but each of them has several quality options, NYGM, Trigger Maru, etc. Yet with all of this awesome work done for free by the community, they give us something that is really a console style series of achievements.

The modders have been heroic on SH5 and gave us something more than playable but I'm still finding SH5 kind of hollow and drifting back to SH3.

What I'd love to play:

An SH3+(megamod) style campaign / career on SH5 with Sober's mod list and all the goodies, real nav, scripting, etc. I realize that mix is too hardcore for most of the non-subsim community, but realism can be tweaked to make it as easy as one would want.

ahaysub

02-25-13, 01:55 PM

Get back to basics. GREAT visual details. Harbors, coast lines, weather, waves, realtime damage models that vary with each time you play a mission.
AI that actually works correctly. Never mind talking to crew members to make them feel good, running around the ship, picking specific crews, writing logs, etc.
Make things like saving games and returning to campaigns that actually work. STICK TO BASICS AND MAKE THEM OPERATE CORRECTLY.

If Ubisoft can't or won't fix their game and all they are worried able is DRM, piracy, and locking the software on their online servers, forget about them.

Dig up ACES OF THE DEEP or SILECT SERVICE - do a 21th century upgrade and roll it out. Competition will fix or sink UBISOFT

Theodor Christensen

02-26-13, 06:52 AM

Would love a new simulator, a good one for once, good graphics and good gameplay, and make it look real..its jsut a dream but it should be possible. SH5 graphics in SH3 game would be a good one.
-Captain Theodor

sidslotm

02-26-13, 12:17 PM

The modders have been heroic on SH5 and gave us something more than playable but I'm still finding SH5 kind of hollow and drifting back to SH3.

Hollow is a good description and about how I feel. Even in the shallow waters there is not enough tension to go round, I find myself Submerging and going out for an hour or two, only to take it up when I return, I have left it running all night before now. But no matter how I try to break away from this sim, I seem to return to Kiel and re-enlisting. :up:

flag4

02-26-13, 12:45 PM

tommo8993

02-26-13, 07:39 PM

Hinrich Schwab

02-27-13, 10:28 AM

Ubisoft: 'We want to improve our relationship with PC gamers'
http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/ubisoft-we-want-to-improve-our-relationship-with-pc-gamers/0111333

Maybe someone should point Stephanie.Perotti@Ubisoft.com in this direction to test if they are serious or just making throw away comments.

I vote for, "throwaway comment". Ubisoft's actions indicate that it will maintain its current course of action, much to the consternation of all PC games, not just us. I feel as if they have just written all of us off.

Simpson(simo251)petramylov

02-27-13, 11:22 AM

why dont thay make a submarine game on current times sending missles in land and nukes taking on other subs dog fighting under the sea even with ships that can be controlled think a sh5 style where u can walk around and go to all the stations in the sub would be good and pick your country and start a war be cool

Simpson(simo251)petramylov

02-27-13, 11:25 AM

even better a carrier where u have to train as a torpedo man sound man radio man etc to finally become captain of your own sub or ship lol just hoping and praying a all out naval sim would be the tits

BigBANGtheory

02-27-13, 01:30 PM

I vote for, "throwaway comment". Ubisoft's actions indicate that it will maintain its current course of action, much to the consternation of all PC games, not just us. I feel as if they have just written all of us off.

Personally I bet Ubisoft made good money from Far Cry 3 (PC version) above their expectations and someone is trying a weak effort as part of thier career promotion prospects to close a quick gap, tick in the box, sell it internally as a win etc etc.

...but I'll gladly eat my own words if genuine progress is made, show me the olive branch and I'll listen.

Iron Budokan

02-27-13, 05:24 PM

Considering how Ubisoft treated players in the past I wouldn't trust anything they have to say now. Wanting to repair their 'relationship' with gamers is nothing more than a desperate attempt to repair their salable image.

They have proven time and again they really don't care about the gamers they profess to respect. So they can cram it as far as I am concerned. :shifty:

tsotha

03-02-13, 12:02 AM

Ubisoft: 'We want to improve our relationship with PC gamers'

The big news on the business side in the last few quarters is console game sales have cratered. Nobody really knows why, though a lot of people are speculating it's because the current generation is so long in the tooth. But Valve is making money hand-over-fist on the PC with Steam, so it's not surprising Ubi wants to set up a competing service.

Reading the article I get the impression they think removing the always-on DRM restriction was a huge concession on their part (remember, this is the company that said 95% of installations were pirated). I didn't see anything that would make me think they were interested in putting more effort into improving game quality at release time.

And for me that's pretty important. Sure, if the game is selling well they'll put out a few patch releases. But if it isn't, those bugs are never going to get fixed and I'm left feeling swindled.

Lasstmichdurch

03-05-13, 05:27 PM

Very interesting about WWII <-> Modern era thing...
I´m interested in numbers what the community would like to have...we should make a poll about it...

The situation for modern era is even more frustrating since DW will not run under Win 8...

gorilliamos

03-06-13, 11:28 PM

Anybody try this one out yet? Arma 3 is still in Alpha but you can buy it off steam. What do they support now? SUBS and underwater environment. This has always been one of the most moddable games.

http://img541.imageshack.us/img541/3757/2013030600018.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/541/2013030600018.jpg/)

Lasstmichdurch

03-08-13, 06:44 AM

I´m wondering what´s about Danger from deep...is it dead?

drupps

03-11-13, 10:31 AM

It seems like most game publishers and developers are doing the DLC think lately. I think the best idea for a niche genre especially is to release the game after a prolonged beta. And add new ships, campaigns, etc to further the development and patches for the product.

I realize this means more cost to the users, but I think it keeps interest and could in fact create interest to people that might not have played a game in the genre.

Also Ubisoft needs to get the game on Steam, Origins, all the digital distribution services. I use Steam and have bought many games through that that I probably wouldn't have through retail or digitally on their website.

tommo8993

03-28-13, 08:16 PM

I think a 1960's cold war gone hot would be perfect. The best of both worlds.

thefinnishguy

04-03-13, 10:15 AM

In my opinion, it would be great with a new subsim about the Cold War, many people are already tired with WW2 subsims. Or maybe an early Cold War sim
with diesel subs like the Whiskey and Barbel? Like a 1960's online-based open-source sim :D?

JagdPanzer44

04-04-13, 12:39 PM

I'm not optimistic at all about the future of these sims.

If we were still in the days of independent studios putting out quality games - I might have some hope; but in this day of a handful of bloated corporate entities owning everything, I'd say we've seen the last of any presentable submarine simulations.

And I'd rather Ubi stay out of the equation altogether - they've done enough damage. Selling a rough framework of a game at full price and then expecting a small niche of modders to spend the next 2 years making it playable is insulting. Fool me once, shame on Ubi, fool me two or three times...well...

Our only salvation would be some small company out of nowhere surprising us with a great, working sub-sim that would set a new standard.

But realistically, I don't see that happening.

ruky00

04-05-13, 04:31 AM

I am not native English so excuse me if it is difficult to understand some parts.

I found this thread really interesting, and looks like some people think that developing a new game should be a good option, you know, hire some developers and start building the code. Let me tell you what's my opinion about that. Of course, I may be wrong, probably I am wrong but some may feel it useful.

First a bit of background.

I always wanted to play a game which no one seems to be interested into developing. speaking with my friends/colleagues about it they told me that now days with plenty of game engines available it is an easy task, so I decided to code my dreamed game my self.

My programing experience dated from 15 years ago, using the old Turbo C or Turbo Pascal on MSDOS when I was a student, after that I just coded small bash/perl scripts to help in my day work. No knowledge of OOP, or modern languages/IDEs ...

First I decided which language should I use, finally I decided python due everybody said it is easy. Then I tried some free game engines, after some trials I chose a big and well documented engine which seemed ideal for my proposals.

Then I sit on my chair and started to code, but after a while I realized that game building is not about programing, first and foremost you need to desing the game, define its rules, its parts, its dynamics ...

Led me try to explain with an example. I am a big fan of UFO game, there is a open source project that is coding a new engine for it [openXcom]. A gamer can play the original one, or the new project and he will not appreciate any differences, indeed if you don't tell him he will think that he is playing the same game. Yep, the same game but they don't share a single line of the code.

So the game is above the code/engine used, now days you can implement it with a great number of technologies, some will need more resources other less but if the game is not well designed it doesn't matter the technology used, it will be a fiasco.

In my humble opinion, if the community wants to build their own subsim, they need good game designers, and there is no need of good coding skills or technology knowledge from the start, rather than, a well though game mechanics is far more important.

When you have the game designed and began to code it, no matter which technology was finally chosen, you realize that a good code doesn't means a great game. Yep, it seems obvious but some times the quantity and quality of work outside of coding doesn't seems well pondered. It is not just good quality artwork even the gamer orders flow needs to be work with well designed user interface, which its not easy.

That's the reason why most open source games looks so awful, yep there is plenty of talented developers which can code by free, but its hard to join them with talented 3D designers, music mens, ...

A community developed game would be really nice, but rather than go en hire developers opening a wiki to start a brain storming ideas for the game may be better.

If some one has read all the brick, thank you for you patience with an old guy. :)

Miki_Mundi

04-17-13, 02:16 PM

I love this type of game.
As to the future of games like it?
Well, tbh, I think that todays generation of young gamers want instant gratification, easy kills, cheats and awesome firepower.

Games like Silent Hunter unfortunately do not fit into this demographic, requiring skill, routine and patience to excel effectively.

To move forward, this genre would need to appeal to both demographics and essentially widen the market.

To appeal to the first SUBset [pardon the pun] it would possibly have to take the form of an arcadey open world format, whereby you have a semi-linear storyline with main missions,a protagonist, ally characters, enemies and an arch nemisis.
Side missions would fill out the game and various "power ups" not related to realism would fulfill the urge of those who feel the necessity to disproportionally wipe everything out of existance.

To appeal to the purist however, the game would need a slightly different tone, still open world play but with the emphasis on realism with attentive graphics and an immersive (should I say SUBmersive for pun no.2!) environment.
It wouldn't change too much from Silent Hunter 3 (not played other versions) in the fact that micro management of several details such as crew, weapons, fatigue, damage etc but with definate improvements related to modern computer hardware to bring it into the 21st century.
The possibility of a choice of theatres from WW2 until present day could appeal with some interesting what if scenarios.
The ability to create your own story is paramount here.

Needless to say, online gaming is also an important part of anygame in this current day and age and would probably appeal to both the gamers and the purist.

Anyway, just my two penneth worth...

desertstriker

04-23-13, 07:07 PM

as much as it pains me to say it the subsim genre is more than likely dead. no corporation will want to pump money in the development of something that only 5-10% of the gaming community will consider buying and of that only 2-5% will accualy buy. it will probably end in us poor chaps making our own games and even then we will slowly die away because every few people get recruited to the subsim genre and of those are the survivors who are not immediately turned off by games like SH5. People just don't seem to have the respect for the games and what they stand for. like today many people don't hear about the battle of the atlantic they hear more about the land battles than the fear of Uboats.

Sailor Steve

04-23-13, 08:50 PM

desertstriker

04-23-13, 09:21 PM

i know what you mean there is a comic book store near me sells axis and allies stuff but they have more things like magic the gathering and other games that get far more attention. it is a shame that very few of my generation can appreciate a historical game. perhaps they don't understand what could have happened. thats why i play and when i play i legitimately think i can win the war.

I just feel bad that one of the genres that i enjoy the most may no longer be around 10 years from now... i just hope i am wrong

TBoone

04-24-13, 07:22 AM

The first game I played was Medal of Honor PS1, I've been playing almost nothing but historical war games ever since. My only hope is for ever more realistic representations of the wars of old on my PC, mostly WW2, and perhaps if somone would produce a shooter, simulation, etc. that is as acurate to the experience of that war as can possibly ever be made, then people will understand. The modern man has a type of man which no longer exists as a result of the modern world to thank for eveything they have and take for granted! I am a very strong minded person and very rarely shed a tear, but somtimes I cry when I see a video of USS Arizona, and know that it took some of those poor heroes three days to run out of air down there in an inpenitrable steel tomb, or some other clip of the absolute hell they lived in. For three days you could hear men tapping the steel inside the ships, and know there was no way to save them. And I can not understand how a world full of people who has those men to thank for their freedom, to be either ignorant of it, or unapreciative of that sacrifice, I find it disgracful and sickening! And an unrealistic game is almost an insult to the men who lived it, because realistic games are a good way for the young men today to remember the old, and the dead.

Hawk66

04-24-13, 01:00 PM

I hate to say it but you may be right. I am part of what used to be a thriving wargaming community where I live - dozens of players here and hundreds all over the country - playing boardgames and tabletop miniatures games. It was common for us to have at least ten people show up on any game night, which may not sound like a lot but that was for our favorite group of games, and there were many others playing games that we weren't interested in. Today we meet every other Thursday and there are never more than five of us. The hobby shop is filled with people playing fantasy wargames and roll-playing games, but the historical stuff seems to be dying out.

Yes, that's true...I only know one buddy, who has in general interest about (modern) history and with whom I can discuss related topics.

Luckily, in the board gaming sector, in the last couple of years a couple of solitaire games came out, which make a lot of fun....usually I am not a WWII subsim fan but U-Boat Leader (http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/85108/u-boat-leader) together with the fan-made tactical expansion I can strongly recommend. There are also other WWII solitaire boardgames available, with a more strategic setting.

Concerning subsims in general: crowdfunding or the approach, which the warfaresim.com guys took...

Cowboy10uk

04-29-13, 03:45 AM

Guys, all I can say is dont give up. I remember flight sims, going through this about 5 years ago, and while we still don't have loads of sims coming out, the flight sim community is fairly healthy and we now have some stunning sims to choose from, and the future is looking fairly good.

While I agree that it is unlikely we will get any help or intrest from large studios these days, and since Ubisoft own the Silent Hunter name it's a pretty good guess that sadly that sim has sunk without trace.

With the new use of Kickstarter, it is now possible, so long as we have a talented bunch who is willing to make us a good subsim, for it to happen.

I mean, look at the success of Star Citizen, and again that is a genre everyone said was dead, think they are only 50k away from hitting 9 million raised through donations, now that shows the power of the people.

Yes we are a niche genre, BUT simmers have never been known for accepting defeat and where there is a will there is a way. I do strongly believe that there is a place for a accurate 100% submarine simulation. The only question is which time period. I believe there would be intrest in any period, so long as the simulation is accurate enough. A full on living and breathing submarine, all switches, doors, hatches etc fully working. Maybe with Multi player crew positions. All with a historical accurate world, correct paint work, radio transmissions etc etc. A lot of work, but certainly nothing that isn't acheivable. Hell our wonderful modders have done a lot of the work to make the world look and feel realistic already.

I for one, would certainly be happy to back something like this on kickstarter. Where there's a will there is a way. While certainly at the moment, we are sinking fast, there is still a hope we can blow those tanks and limp back to port, before coming back out and blowing everyone away.

Cowboy10uk

Cybermat47

04-29-13, 04:33 AM

I think that even if subsims die out, they will come back.

Take the BBC TV show Doctor Who, for example. It ran from 1963-1989. It was canned because not many people were interested in it anymore. Then, in 2005, it was bought back by a man who had loved it as a child, and was in a position to bring it back. Someday, I'm sure that the same thing will happen with subsims.

Don't give up hope. In most cases it's all we have.

Takeda Shingen

04-29-13, 10:00 AM

With the new use of Kickstarter, it is now possible, so long as we have a talented bunch who is willing to make us a good subsim, for it to happen.

And that will be the key for the future. A Kickstarter project is the most likely prospect for a future submarine simulation. For those of us that don't code, like myself, it will be our job to be ready to support those type of projects with money.

EDIT: Some notable examples of Kickstarter success:

Wasteland 2 --

http://wasteland.inxile-entertainment.com/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9hQWqtxXPU

Xenonauts --

http://www.xenonauts.com/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZILKabhJouI

Skullgirls --

http://skullgirls.com/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4oW5He_6x0

There's three refined, high quality, and in the case of Skullgirls, tangible products that were crowd funded on Kickstarter. If they can do it, well you know the rest.....

Julhelm

04-29-13, 12:21 PM

Xenonauts is probably the most reasonable meter of graphic/feature fidelity that can be expected from a kickstarter subsim. Anything approaching SH let alone surpassing it will not be done on a kickstarter budget alone. inXile for instance who ran the very successful Wasteland 2 and Torment kickstarters is still an established studio with other investors. Chris Roberts also has other investors involved outside of kickstarter.

So far we haven't seen any sims on kickstarter and I think in part this is because the sim community is known for having some very high (too high?) expectations on what they want from a sim. Personally I think the current hardcore sim model that focuses on systems fidelity only is flawed and I would not support such a kickstarter.

McBeck

05-02-13, 11:43 AM

And that will be the key for the future. A Kickstarter project is the most likely prospect for a future submarine simulation. For those of us that don't code, like myself, it will be our job to be ready to support those type of projects with money.

EDIT: Some notable examples of Kickstarter success:

Wasteland 2 --

http://wasteland.inxile-entertainment.com/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9hQWqtxXPU

Xenonauts --

http://www.xenonauts.com/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZILKabhJouI

Skullgirls --

http://skullgirls.com/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4oW5He_6x0

There's three refined, high quality, and in the case of Skullgirls, tangible products that were crowd funded on Kickstarter. If they can do it, well you know the rest.....

You miss Star Citizen from those. Its a space sim. They have raised 9.000.000 USD so far!

http://www.robertsspaceindustries.com/

Mr Quatro

05-02-13, 03:17 PM

I would like to see a modern Sub Command with lots of time to play on normal time or quick time if you could slew like on FSX, but the future
is surely not for your normal to higher intelligent players.

The future is lunch or on a commuter train going home to unwind or a doctor's visit or a passenger terminal or runway delay.

The future is mobil and touch screen and ugh consoles :oops:

Windows 8 touch screen is begging for a good sub sim game to just touch and the target becomes id'd with CIC being notified of your
intentions to fire upon a known or unknown target.
Scoring system would be like bowling with misses counting against you.

Employees love to surf and shop and even post in forums lol

So why not a quick way to relax? :)

Heinrich Liebe

05-02-13, 04:06 PM

makman94

05-03-13, 12:10 PM

Ubisoft's SHO? No thanks UBI! :/\\!!
Successor of Dangerous Waters? I have no hope!

And this is why: I Build my own simulator;)

Title of the Project: Submarine Simulator - The challenge.

Here is my first video about the project: http://youtu.be/6Y-NSQ2tunk

http://www.ubootsimulator.de
Website is in German. Translation follows ...

Sorry for my bad english...

Lars

hello there Heinrich Liebe ,

i am very impressed with your project and i am looking forward see it growing up :up:

good programmers are exactly the guys that are needed for a real simulator at first place so as i saw your post only possitive hopes comes in my mind that we may see a real good sim some day :yep:

congratulations Heinrich Liebe , you are doing amazing things there :salute:

ps: if you need any help that i can be usefull ,drop me a pm

Subnuts

05-04-13, 04:28 PM

Let me go off-topic for a moment and describe a weird dream I had last night.

So I load up Silent Hunter 6 for the first time. The big selling-point of this sim is that the player can control any crew member from a first-person perspective. So, the first thing I do is walk down to the engine room (which is the size of a cathedral and has a stone texture in the overhead, but never mind) and click on one of my mechanics. For some reason the screen starts flashing red, my guy starts groaning in pain, and my hit points are rapidly declining. He drops dead right there, so I select the other mechanic, and the exact same thing happens.

Right after the second mechanic dies, my boat loses all of it's diesel fuel in about 10 seconds, and a screen pops up saying that my submarine is stranded at sea and everyone onboard has died. What happened is that part of my mechanic's character models were colliding with the diesel engines, which only affected them when I was in their first-person view. The diesels ground up their hands when I selected them, causing enormous amounts of damage to the engines themselves. When the second mechanic was killed, my diesel hit points dropped to zero, and both exploded, making all the fuel leak out of the boat.

I think my dream was telling me that in the future, game developers need to be cautious during play-testing. Or that somebody besides Ubisoft should make subsims. Something like that.

Jimbuna

05-04-13, 04:47 PM

I dare not say what I suspect but do a pregnancy check in the morning :O:

TorpX

05-04-13, 07:55 PM

I think my dream was telling me that in the future, game developers need to be cautious during play-testing. Or that somebody besides Ubisoft should make subsims. Something like that.
That's just what I was thinking. :yep:

Nexus7

05-18-13, 04:24 PM

Sartoris

05-19-13, 04:45 AM

I-M-P-R-E-S-S-I-V-E

I agree, very interesting! Perhaps you should consider using Kickstarter? I know I would back such a fascinating project!

stormrider_sp

05-20-13, 08:44 PM

me too!
:up:

flag4

05-21-13, 04:22 AM

thebeasle

05-24-13, 05:02 PM

This is going to take one or a handful of highly motivated individuals to make a new subsim game.

I don't see how buying the Silent Hunter IP or source code or hiring an existing studio makes any sense. What are you going to do? Say donate to my kickstarter and once I get all this money I will negotiate on your behalf?

I disagree that the sim market is dead. Look at the success of Minecraft, X-Plane, and Kerbal Space Program. Yes, Call of Duty fans outnumber us, but part of being an older group is that we also have more money. X-Plane 10 is $70 plus shipping which I gladly paid. It's a great sim.

It's just going to take a talented programmer with a great vision for a new subsim game to run a successful kickstarter campaign. I'm not a programmer so I'm not going to do it, but I hope someone else does.

TorpX

05-24-13, 10:50 PM

I don't see how buying the Silent Hunter IP or source code or hiring an existing studio makes any sense.

Why not? When your light goes out, do you re-invent the light bulb, or buy one of those proven Edison jobs?

raymond6751

05-25-13, 03:42 AM

[quote]
Originally Posted by Heinrich Liebe http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/smartdark/viewpost.gif (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=2050388#post2050388)
Ubisoft's SHO? No thanks UBI! :/\\!!
Successor of Dangerous Waters? I have no hope!

And this is why: I Build my own simulator;)

Title of the Project: Submarine Simulator - The challenge. [quote]

I can see this is a work of love. Congratulations! Every subsimmers dream is to have a physical control system like that. We just can dream. Few could afford to purchase that much hardware.

You have taken on a huge challenge, my friend. I wish you all the best with it.
:rock:

thebeasle

05-25-13, 03:54 AM

Why not? When your light goes out, do you re-invent the light bulb, or buy one of those proven Edison jobs?

My guess is any one of those things would cost 6 figures and don't lend themselves to a kickstarter campaign (may not even be allowed by the rules). I mean someone has to own the IP, someone has to own the source code (unless they vow to make to turn it over to open source). You raise funds to hire a development studio, but then who owns the game? Who takes responsibility for sales, marketing and distribution? Who gets the sales revenue?

There are a whole host of issues that I think makes crowd-sourcing those three options difficult if not impossible. I could be wrong. Software development is not my profession or expertise.

Nexus7

05-25-13, 06:51 PM

desertstriker

05-25-13, 09:17 PM

submarines are not that slow some can reach up to 40 knots and more IIRC. Besides they have several tactical advantages that still make them indisposable.

Besides no mater how much people want to think there is a such thing as total stealth there is no such thing as total stealth. Using optcal camaflog that presents a picture of what is behind you and around you (i cant remember the name of it) leaves a distortion and you still have a shadow and a smell for dogs to pick up, radar stealth you still have a cross section and for submarines you still have some sort of noise. In the movie Hunt for Red October the sub had the magnetohydrodynamic drive (MHD for short) nicknamed the caterpillar well not to say the sounds they where supposed to hear wouldn't happen you would still have the sound of the water being forced for example.

Minoslas

05-26-13, 12:47 PM

Eagle dynamics can be convert on a (far) future on a option for a naval simulator.

Naval units can be implemented into Digital Combat Simulator: World (only a year live) with some engine limitations (for now), but the future EDGE engine and if some can be make a 3rd party. DCS:World engine can be include Low to High fidelity aircraft's, Helos, vehicles and ships (for now DCS:W only have ED / 3rd Party aircrafts and Helos, but expected more in the future).

3D models make by 3D Max 2012 and beyond can be integrate into DCS:W by LUA files (or convert on C+/DLL by a 3rd party). The bad part has be actual DCS:W no support submarine warfare or naval underwater environment, but adequate pressure (modders and / or 3rd Parties) can be change them. For now ASuW and AAW warfare can be simulated (with some limits).

Some features has been implemented by requirement (example: future troop / cargo capability into helos on UH-1H / Mil Mi-8 modules, Multicrew post on aircraft / helos (UH-1H pilot / copilots / gunners, and some training aircrafts (Bae Hawk / L-39 / C-101) double command trainer, or improved carrier operations on future F-18C/E modules).

With time, work and patience, can be some similar spectrum to Dangerous Waters. And actual module Combined Arms expected on the future a "similar" capability to old "Fleet Command" with the inclusion of the naval units to give command and take control.

And not only can limit to "modern" envirotment. WW2 aircrafts (P-51D and FW-190D-9 modules) open the to U-boat operations on WW2 maps

Kapitan_Phillips

05-31-13, 09:34 AM

I would like to turn the discussion into "the future of submarine warfare", the future of the silent service.

the future is the space.
If airborne becomes undetectable, whats the advantage of the slow submarines?

Submarines are rather more self sufficient than aircraft, I would think. Also, if I were to pick one of the top three "Bomb these first" targets for an attack, airbases would be way up there.

Whereas not knowing where an SSBN may be lurking until it's launched throws a spanner into my plans somewhat.

denis_469

06-01-13, 01:56 PM

I think, that Ubisoft need made patch 1.6 for SHIII, so:
1 - SH III is best game in series
2 - SH III is best game for modding

And so in patch need made:
1 - support memory to 256 Gb
2 - support videomemory to 256 Gb
3 - delete limit planes in air (now 50 planes, if more so crash)
4 - made insert 200 submarine types (it is easy, so now all limited number submarine types for gamers) total
5 - made insert more flotillia (now see p.4)
6 - made insert other countries (like USSR, British, Poland, France, Japan for example). In new countryes made flotillias and few boats for gamers (more would be made community himself) and few AI ships like targets for subs this countryes (more wold be made by community himself)
7 - game not need connect with Internet for work
8 - made insert 200 (or more) weapon types for submarines, so would be submarines various states and need more weapon types
9 - insert normal homing torpedoes with realistic data. This data can see this: http://sovpl.forum24.ru/?1-4-0-00000051-000-0-0
especially for german T-V torpedoes.
10 - not need insert in new patch US submarines, so in this case sell SH IV would be kill total
11 - may be more after.

And last - new patch with it launch new interes in Silent Hunter serie, so SH III receive new features. New features is new interest and new prosuct sell for company Ubisoft.

desertstriker

06-01-13, 10:30 PM

I agree with you denis the only problem is ubi has abandond SH3 and without seeing alot of money they won't consider reopening it. Also think about all of the excelent megamods that we have now think about all of the hours of work that could potentialy be blown sky high because of such a patch

denis_469

06-01-13, 11:42 PM

Iproblem is ubi has abandond SH3 and without seeing alot of money they won't consider reopening it.

Without reopening SH III Ubisoft kill serie Silent Hunter. SH V is real vision in future Silent Hunter series in it time.
And for money - new patch Ubisoft can sell like new geame (f.e SH VI) and like free patch for gamers what have SH III yet. Now have many peoples who not have SH III, so this game launch in 2005 year. Now is 2013 year. And new selling SH III in new mark (like SH VI) would be good.

desertstriker

06-02-13, 12:07 AM

yeah try convincing them of that. we could do it ourselves if we had the SDK but again ubi only cares about $$$$

denis_469

06-02-13, 12:18 AM

yeah try convincing them of that.

Really SH serie is dead, so Ubisoft can not made nothing more. Ubi wish $ and so made SG V, but receive total failure. In SH V Ubi not think about peoples, but about money only. But money not need this game. This game need for peoples. And without understand in Ubi this reasons this company can not made nothing in this Silent hunter serie.

Nexus7

06-02-13, 04:03 AM

Really SH serie is dead, so Ubisoft can not made nothing more. Ubi wish $ and so made SG V, but receive total failure.

It's not dead... there's SHO. Going online opens for a huge number of possibilities.
I mean, it could be worse. What if Ubi totally abandoned the subsim genre?!

What will SHO be actually? And further, what could SHO2 be like in maybe 2 years? SHO3 ? :O:

Sailor Steve

06-02-13, 09:03 AM

there's SHO.
How much money are you willing to spend on upgrades, extra torpedoes and whatever else they charge for?

Vince82

06-02-13, 12:20 PM

I've played the beta, SHO is free. But people that want to spend money have the option to do so. Besides you don't have to battle each other. SHO is about working together as a wolfpack.

LoBlo

06-02-13, 12:56 PM

Julhelm

06-02-13, 02:09 PM

If it's good, probably a whole lot less than Flight Simulator fans pay for addons and peripherals.

JU_88

06-02-13, 04:07 PM

if SHO can redeem the fanchise after the SH5 fiasco, its not impossible that SH might see another reboot in years to come.
whether or not that would be 'good thing' depends entirely on Ubi recognising their past mistakes and learning from them. namley not trying to push the wrong genre at the wrong market and loosen up the DRM noose.

And likewise subsimmers who feel they've been burned by Ubi would have to be prepared to wipe the slate clean and give them another chance (abeit with realistic expectations), we are masters of our own destiny in that respect.

Ubis approach with the SH franchise has not been very smart,
3 titles in 5 years (none of which ever reached their full potential at Ubis hands) and now SHO, which is just seems like an attempt to squeeze some cash by recycling a knackered franchise by throwing on it the F2P bandwagon at low cost. If you ask me SHO seems like a marketing experiment on Ubis part.

I really, really believe SH could still do well if it perhaps adopted the railsim model of a progressive sim, start with a basic but solid foundation and build it up with DLC over time. You could even end up with playable destoyers and aircraft eventually.
Even if you think DLC is scandoulsly over priced, i think its sometimes a neccesary evil -and in the case of an open world sim like SH its seems to be the only way to deliver everything to the fans in financially viable way for the publishers.
Getting a near perfect subsim out of the box with all the bells and whistles for a one off payment of $50 is just not going to happen, its pure fantasy in this day and age.
Im sure the perfect subsim is possible with out a huge dependency on modders.... but y'all gotta pay!

desertstriker

06-02-13, 11:58 PM

I would pay $100 for the perfect subsim maybe even 200 :D

Vince82

06-03-13, 04:19 AM

Maybe its a generational thing. WWII is becoming farther and farther away in history and modern submarines don't have the mystique of cold-war warriors they once have. How's a up and coming young gamer community even exposed to the concept of submarine warfare nowadays? Outside of Ubisoft, who else is making anything of quality?

lb

Quality arcade games like WOW:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0x-yMXGUSo

Documentaries (and youtube in general):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JP-ytvCRuk

Julhelm

06-03-13, 05:07 AM

That's not World of Warships. It looks like Battlestations Pacific.

Vince82

06-03-13, 06:04 AM

That's not World of Warships. It looks like Battlestations Pacific.

Yes you're right it's Battlestations Pacific. And not WoW. :salute:

flag4

06-03-13, 10:46 AM

its not impossible that SH might see another reboot in years to come.

build it up with DLC over time. You could even end up with playable destoyers and aircraft eventually.

Even if you think DLC is scandoulsly over priced, i think its sometimes a neccesary evil
Im sure the perfect subsim is possible with out a huge dependency on modders.... but y'all gotta pay!

I agree with 98% of what you say except the above!:yep:

Nexus7

06-03-13, 11:47 AM

Im sure the perfect subsim is possible with out a huge dependency on modders.... but y'all gotta pay!

I agree, WoT is not moddable and look what a success. I play it since two years but have'nt spend one single cent on it yet. If there are advertisements around i practically never noticed any. It's sort of funny but it's possible or even probable that people that don't like it so much will spend more (don't know).

Anyway, modding a single player game is one thing, modding a multiplayer game is another! Assume there are 10 mods available for a multiplayer game: you will have the players distributed into those 10 mods, reducing everyone's chance to get a game!!!

The smaller the number of players, the sharper the consequences (ppl quit playing).

GlobalExplorer

06-06-13, 12:07 PM

Good to see this getting some discussion. Let me chime in ..

First, I think UBIs simulation branch is a thing of the past. Stupid decisions, bad software quality and support, and also astronomic expecations from the users have killed not only Silent Hunter, but IL2, and LOMAC long before.

Worst of all, while the flightsims have survived somehow, the people that brought us Silent Hunter are scattered into the winds.

But perhaps not all is lost. Flightsims are as strong as ever and live on through dedicated companies like DCS and 777 Studios. There are even new games in development like Battle of Stalingrad. The same with racing sims, there are companies who have specialized in that field as well. This self published model works much better for simulations than the big publisher / small developer relationship that never really exploited the potential.

What we need is only 1 developer who takes up the naval sim field. I think one day we'll see it happen but it could take some years. As to the kickstarter approach, I have not seen anything interesting happen in the simulation field, but it could happen.

Such things simply take time, often a decade until someone sees the opportunity. Old hands will remember that there was a completely bleak period between 1995 and 2005, and how did that change with SH3. There was a similar drought in WW1 combat sims, there was practically nothing decent available for a decade between RB2, and now there is practically too much choice with Rise of Flight, Over Flanders Fields, First Eagles, etc.

Julhelm

06-07-13, 04:51 AM

That the users tend to have astronomical expectations is a real problem - Remember the original announcement of Battle of Stalingrad where there was a HUGE ****storm about how they went back to 'only IL-2 levels of fidelity' because essentially CLOD fidelity was not financially feasible? Look at DCS - how many modules have been released so far? And still the same Black Sea terrain since 1996.

One great thing with the current crop of WW1 sims is that they are all very different games. RoF focuses on accurate physics and multiplayer, FE is a lite-sim singleplayer game and OFF is the very deep, immersive singleplayer experience.

Personally I would love to have the choice between Silent Service-type lite sim and Silent Hunter-type deep immersion and SHO-style online-focused game.

Nexus7

06-08-13, 02:19 PM

Maybe its a generational thing. WWII is becoming farther and farther away in history and modern submarines don't have the mystique of cold-war warriors they once have. How's a up and coming young gamer community even exposed to the concept of submarine warfare nowadays? Outside of Ubisoft, who else is making anything of quality?

lb

I agree. Today drones cover the news.

On the other hand, the other day I toke a look at the US budget on submarines for the next years and it looks like they are going spend even more !

helo06

06-12-13, 09:46 AM

Subsims were always a niche of their own to begin with, produced mainly for a small dedicated group of people, less than half the size of flightsim fans.

I honestly think that the Silent Hunters we have now, will be all we have for the foreseeable future. Kickstart campaign though could work. A good example of a successful kickstart campaign started by a community, is getting 3 real truck brands into ETS 2. It's not exactly comparable, but it does show that even smaller community than Subsim can get results with relatively little effort.

There's no telling what a well organized, dedicated and talented community like Subsim would get done with a real concentrated effort.

robbierob2005

06-21-13, 08:03 AM

I would pay $100 for the perfect subsim maybe even 200 :D

I agree on that :up:

Minoslas

07-04-13, 12:18 PM

DCS - how many modules have been released so far?

From may 2012 (DCS: W) release to today (Jul 2013) 6 modules:
ED:
- P-51 Mustang
- Combined Arms
- Flamming Clifft 3
3rd Party:
- Belsimtek: UH-1H
2 previous ED titles integrate on DCS:W:
- Black Shark 2
- A-10C

On Develop (Today) 12 modules:
ED:
- F/A-18C Hornet
- Fw-190D-9
- F-15C
- Su-27S
3rd Party:
- Studio Beczl: Mig-21Bis
- Belsimtek: Mil Mi-8MTv2
- Albatros Team: L-39ZA/ZO.
- Coretex: F/A-18E Super Hornet
- Virtual European Air Operations (VEAO): Hawk
- RAZBAM: T-2 BuckEye
- Mil-Sim Projects: F-104G StarFighter
- Kinney Interactive: F-35A

Planned:
- ED: Future theatres and modules (and continuous update DCS:W)
- Studio Beczl: Mig-23
- Belsimteck: AH-1G Cobra / Mil Mi-24 Hind
- Coretex: F-5 Tiger II.
- VEAO: Eurofighter
- RAZBAM: AV8B Harrier II, F-15E Strike Eagle, A-7 Corsair II
- IRIS: DB-5J Microjet, T-38A Talon, F-15E Strike Eagle, F-14 Tomcat, F-22 Raptor
- Mil-Sim Projects: MB.339, SF.260, AMX, G.91
- Kinney Interactive: F-35B/F-35C/F-4U Corsair/AM6 Zero.

And more planned but indeterminate if make ED or a 3rd Parties:
- F-86F
- Mig-15Bis
- OH-58D
- F-16C
- Mig-29STM
- L-29

Old low fidelity Flamming Clifft planes (F-15C / Su-27S / Mig-29A/S/G / A-10A / Su-25 / Su-33) move to Med-High Fidelity DCS:W level on the future.

And still the same Black Sea terrain since 1996
Nevada theatre has complete (no the theatre show on A-10C Beta 2, a new build from scratch), but wait to the new EDGE graphic flight / ground / sea simulator engine for release (and making 3rd Parties a SDK to build new theater:
* ED has working on a new indeterminate theater and plan a WW2 europe Theater.
* Kinney Interactive plan a Taiwan / China and a WW2 Pacific Theater.
* Other two teathers are on hold status (Afghanistan / Vladivostok) waiting EDGE release
Future EDGE version plan a whole earth capability.

Minoslas

07-12-13, 09:57 AM

some days ago, ED open on DCS:W forum a Treat with the Naval Theme.

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=1806890#post1806890
What changes and new features would you like to see in DCS regarding naval operations?

Matt

shakakoz

07-13-13, 12:46 PM

Subsims are indeed a niche market. Hopefully Ubisoft made enough money of off SH5 to maintain some interest in future development, but I am not confident that this is the case.

deutscher40

07-13-13, 09:29 PM

Like most companies, they go where the money is. I have to say it's been the mod community that kept them from sinking completely. The mod community comes up with better ideas and add-ons than the programmers who wrote the original code.

Julhelm

07-15-13, 02:10 AM

Jimbuna

07-15-13, 08:41 AM

Julhelm

07-15-13, 09:14 AM

*Cough* what?

desertstriker

07-15-13, 01:53 PM

Well to be honest, modders have it pretty cozy. They don't have to spend 50% of the time meeting predefined milestones or risk cancellation, nor are they at the whim of management who may at any time force huge redesigns, replace key members of the team or demand this or that focus because marketing says so.
it is also not as cozy as yo may think i think it is far from cozy knowing that some people will also never post in sub sim but only download their mods and only post when they have an issue. or when they are working on a mod and are being pestered when can "we" expect a release date or any updates for "us".
some of our excellent modders have severe OCD when it comes to the historical accuracy of some of their mods which seems to be a thankless trait for many.

Jimbuna

07-15-13, 02:08 PM

*Cough* what?

Do you mod?

If so, what have you been involved with?

When I read a broad sweeping statement like yours I get to wondering the above because I can tell you now as far as GWX was concerned your most definitely incorrect.

Julhelm

07-15-13, 02:38 PM

FYI I was a modder for about a decade before I became a game developer by trade - starting out with Quake2, Half-Life at the time when mods were really synonymous with 'total conversion' and I've also modded Strike Fighters (a series that's been kept alive by modders to a far greater extent than SH in my opinion) for many years and IMO being a modder is a very cozy place.

When I mod, I can afford to take risks and since I have a day job that pays my bills I can take as much time as I want to in order to make it perfect. When I made mods for SF, I only made stuff that interested me personally, which happens to be obscure what-if designs. And I could afford to make them because I mod for me and if someone else likes it and gives it a 5 star rating that's cool. So you never have to answer to anybody.

On the commercial games I've worked on, it's always been the opposite: minimum risk, cloning what is already popular and suits making the key decisions and telling you to in effect start over from square one after crunching for weeks in order to meet a milestone or present a playable build. Or crunching for weeks on end because someone somewhere has decided that the game gets released on this specific date. Or getting laid off after said crunch :D

As a modder, you really have complete freedom to do whatever you want to and if someone pesters you about a release date you just say '2 weeks' and go about your business. Your only constraints are literally free time and how moddable your base game is.

So yes, modders have done a lot to fix the various iterations of the SH franchise, but I take issue with the somewhat irreverent-sounding attitude some display against the devs on internet forums. Yes, the games are broken on release, but it's not because they're being made by a bunch of incompetents and need the modders to step in and show how it's done. They're broken because there were factors outside the devs' control and they had to compromise or face cancellation or layoffs.

Jimbuna

07-15-13, 03:21 PM

Most interesting (and I'm happy taking your word) because knowing a few people in the business they have told of similar experiences.

One small difference irl can sometimes be as a member of such a large community as we have here and informing people of WIP (not my decision as I wasn't the project manager) and in so doing building up peoples expectations which in itself can be counter productive because of the self induced build up of pressure....but I guess your aware of that.

BTW...I really enjoyed Quake2.

Julhelm

07-15-13, 04:52 PM

I agree about building up people's expectations and how that can induce pressure which is unfortunate because I believe one shouldn't be feeling pressure doing what is essentially a hobby.

Nexus7

07-16-13, 06:13 AM

It's not the first time that I read stories about modders becoming game developers (the hobby becomes a job). Sort of career like in other fields... involves stress management, like in other fields, I guess.
I don't know, but I was involved in a major IT project lately together with other 10 people : what i could notice is that apparently on every idea, there were, most of the times, 10 different ways to go (11) ...

Interesting discussion !

XabbaRus

07-30-13, 02:31 PM

OK, I remembered my password.

Reading this thread reminded me how I was involved with Dr Sid and a few others to make a community sub sim. Started out with the basic world, getting the physics right and a few decent 3d models to play with.

The idea was to make a Sub Command / Dangerous Waters type sim. It failed due to real life, as you can see I hardly post here anymore, too busy with family.

I'd love to see a Sub Command type sim but without the flaws. IE a dynamic scenario that was less scripted, ie wouldn't play out the same way if you played it over and over, better AI etc. I like Dangerous Waters but in the end I think it lost focus, tried to do too many things in one package.

As for being a modder. Yes sometimes the expectations are high, people asking when the next sub will be ready, when such a function will be done, and then getting crucified if it doesn't meet expectations or doesn't work as they thought it would. I've been involved in my fair share of disagreements, being just as quilty of going off on one.

I also wouldn't like a full systems sim. I'm happy enough to tell my sub which direction and what depth I want it to go. I don't want to go to the point of fiddling with my trim tanks or running up the reactor. Though better damage control would be good.

Anyway I'd love to see a good community subsim, or even a commercial one but I don't think it's going to happen.

Nexus7

07-31-13, 07:10 PM

Hello Xabbarus.
Nice to see you again :)

First, artificial intelligence is not yet as far as to replace human brain, but getting closer and closer.

I dislike to read complaints "of any kind" about Sub Command or Dangerous Waters, as by release they were playable at a great "extent", at least if you compare it to the SH series where after two years I didnt even manage to install the game (SH5).

Sub Command was patched until very stable and even Dangerous Waters came out unbelivably stable at launch. The modders failed I am sorry, in the name of more realism, playability has suffered too much.

I have been an enemy of the modding trend on DW very soon, for at least two reasons:
- the objective to make a more realistic DW is stupid (sorry).
- the release rate of updates has been too frequent.

The disaster is just done if SA doesnt get back.

makman94

07-31-13, 09:14 PM

Reading this thread reminded me how I was involved with Dr Sid and a few others to make a community sub sim. Started out with the basic world, getting the physics right and a few decent 3d models to play with.

,,,,,,

Anyway I'd love to see a good community subsim, or even a commercial one but I don't think it's going to happen.

hi XabbaRus,

what about the 'Danger From The Deep' group ?
this project was so lovely progressing and the team had made a very impressive work so far.
but it ended up without any support from modders. and when i am saying modders i mean programmers and technicians and not the 'eye candies' modders(these can step in at the end and polish the whole thing).
i believe that we will see a real sim for subs at future when some serious programmers and mechanics steps in ('Danger From The Deep' was one step for achieving it if some serious programmers and mechanics joined them)

also, i read somewhere that the DCS may expand their sim(what a great team for plane sim!) to other vehicles too (maybe subs will find their way in)

or ,...long shot.....lets wish the sonalysts to strike back !

Hello Xabbarus.
Nice to see you again :)

First, artificial intelligence is not yet as far as to replace human brain, but getting closer and closer.

I dislike to read complaints "of any kind" about Sub Command or Dangerous Waters, as by release they were playable at a great "extent", at least if you compare it to the SH series where after two years I didnt even manage to install the game (SH5).

Sub Command was patched until very stable and even Dangerous Waters came out unbelivably stable at launch. The modders failed I am sorry, in the name of more realism, playability has suffered too much.

I have been an enemy of the modding trend on DW very soon, for at least two reasons:
- the objective to make a more realistic DW is stupid (sorry).
- the release rate of updates has been too frequent.

The disaster is just done if SA doesnt get back.

i completely agree with all you said Nexus7:yep:

Sub Command , Dangerous Waters (and their 'mother' 688i) are the best subsim(even unmodded) we have... even today

Julhelm

08-01-13, 04:38 AM

Danger from the Deep was essentially a more hardcore Silent Hunter 3. I personally believe it failed because the team bit off more than they could chew and lost interest.

When you're developing something, there's a certain amount of momentum that needs to be kept and once you lose that it's usually the end of that project. The world of sims is littered with once-promising projects that turned out to be just too ambitious and were abandoned.

Hawk66

08-01-13, 05:46 AM

i completely agree with all you said Nexus7:yep:

Sub Command , Dangerous Waters (and their 'mother' 688i) are the best subsim(even unmodded) we have... even today

I also agree...Sonalysts sim were not top when it comes to graphics but their core naval engine is the best commerical naval engine out there.... the possibilites - especially with DW - were and are still endless - especially with the mods.

I've never really understood why not more people have tried out or play regularily DW especially after their was the DW Wiki with a lot of good content , tutorials and articles. Also DW really does not need a high-end machine.

Julhelm

08-01-13, 08:28 AM

Hawk66

08-01-13, 02:57 PM

For me it has to be that DW and the Sonalysts games in general are too much like technical demonstrations than immersive games the likes of Seawolf or Red Storm Rising. It's kind of like how Black Shark is much more advanced simulator yet in ways a much lesser sim than Gunship 2000 was 20 years ago.

Yes, that is true and if I have one major criticism concerning DW than that they might should have put a little more effort in getting away from the look-and-feel of a navy trainer but emphasizing (optionally) more the captain's view like in RedStormRising. You're right, RSR is still unbeaten when it comes to transporting a strong theme (cold war) within a nuclear submarine simulator.
What I really find astonishing is that even after more than 20 years there are still new reviews about this sim published in different languages and all those reviews are transporting the same message: How is it possible that such an old software creates such a tense atmosphere with minimal graphics&audio and compared to today's standard with a minimal budget.

What I've also realized is that apart from the power of the mission editor in DW, which is boosted by undocumented features - like the possibility to fine-control individual AI units, the majority of the people do not have the time or the passion to play with this tool. I think that more or less all Microprose simulations from the 80's and early 90's had dynamic campaigns, was a big contributor to their success.

Julhelm

08-01-13, 04:25 PM

I think a big reason why RSR still holds up well is because it's a Sid Meier game. The guy's a genius.

Nexus7

08-01-13, 05:28 PM

I think a big reason why RSR still holds up well is because it's a Sid Meier game. The guy's a genius.

:haha: must agree: the games i played the most are still civilization 1 and 2

Platapus

08-06-13, 04:33 PM

One of the issues with having our "community" design a subsim is gaining consensus.

Each one of us knows what would make a great sub sim game.....but can we agree?

Some want emphasis on graphics for appearance
Some want more reasonable graphics for platform compatibility)
Some want more technical simulation (player does more stuff)
Some want less technical simulation (player delegates stuff to AI)
Some want adversarial multiplayer
Some want cooperative multiplayer
Some don't want multiplayer at all.

And probably a hundred more conflicting desires.

What is important to me, I can guarantee is not important to others.

I just can't see the Subsim community working this out en-mass.

Nexus7

08-07-13, 03:23 PM

Some want emphasis on graphics for appearance
Some want more reasonable graphics for platform compatibility)

First two points apart (not sure what you mean with the second one), the other points are not conflicting and covered by DW.

Some want more technical simulation (player does more stuff)
Some want less technical simulation (player delegates stuff to AI)

In Dangerous Waters you can choose full manual or delegate some stations to the AI.

Some want adversarial multiplayer - DW has it
Some want cooperative multiplayer - DW has it (so called multistation multiplayer)
Some don't want multiplayer at all. -DW has it

but you're right anyway. Despite the above points are well covered, the list of whishes in regards of DW is as long as the bible. And I don't call me out: for example in SC the CM's couldnt detonate the fishes, making evasion an art. In DW they can. I don't like that :hmph:

To set up a suitable team for such a project is probably as difficult as the development part itself :timeout:

vytek

08-15-13, 05:07 AM

Hi to all.
I have read thie discussion and it is very interesting.
My dream is to have an OpenSource framework to simulate all vehicle (submerged and surfaced). A sort of OS subsim where anyone can create modules (open and closed source, both free and to be purchased) and simulate a sea war game.

I would like it to be:
1) OpenSource and free
2) Playable in internet
3) With real and NPC vessel

I have read an academy project very interesting:
http://oceansys.fe.up.pt/publications/2006_SantosMatos.pdf
http://sourceforge.net/projects/wavesim/

Is this project useful to understand how to simulate physics?
Are there other resources to study, analize, understand dynamics, sound propagation and water simulation?

I know that similar projects have been attempted ...are there any source code to study?

I would like to use:

3D Engine: http://sourceforge.net/projects/irrlichtlime/
Phisics Engine: http://www.mataliphysics.com/
Network Library: http://code.google.com/p/lidgren-network-gen3/
Sound Library: http://www.ambiera.com/irrklang/

Any type of help is welcome!!

Sorry for my bad english.
Regards.

biosthetique

08-15-13, 10:52 AM

The other problem is, sadly, that I don't see us getting much in the way of "new blood" into the hardcore sim community. The younger people who we need to flow into the community are, for the most part, not attracted to games that are slow moving, and especially not ones where they have to read a manual to learn to play. Do you know how many people my Dangerous Waters manual has scared off from even giving the game a try? I'd love to give society the benefit of the doubt, but I just don't see the younger generation, that we need to bolster the community, having anywhere NEAR the attention span that's needed to play these games. I just don't see it.

In the hardcore simmers world, there are some distinctions to make.

That community is at least to be divided in half. One half being made up of simmers like you and the other half made up of gamers pretending and asking to be recognized as hardcore simmers when in fact they are buying and playing hardcore sims, in Arcade mode.

Such players are not committed to a simulation, but to an entertainment mode where they can blow the Crap up, in ways that seem to them REALISTIC, with all the Hollywood effects to feel like they were a "A LETHAL WARRIOR". They would meet up on line with their manned up bodies, play a Sim in Arcade mode and club AI baby seals, because "Force on Force" was too hard. Then brag about how good they were. I have seen it, experienced it in Tactical Gamers, SimHQ, etc... playing games such as Arma's, Steel Beast Pro pe, Swat 4, etc...

Hence, your DW manual did not interest them and never will. That is the acid test to separate the wheat from the chaff.

A real hardcore vet simmer, will still be a simmer tomorrow, a fake hardcore simmer will switch after a while to console gaming, anything that shines and easy to play.

The new gaming generation goes for ease. Moreover, the ones attracted to sims, will have the same interests in simulation as their counterparts before. People wanting to be James Bond for an hour pretending to be a Hardcore simmers so their wives and kids will leave them alone "SIMULATING", and not have an imaginary stigma attached to "playing a computer game". Then, the other 1/2 that eat, breath the simulation of the complexity and operation of some technologies, and enjoy it.

The only difference today, is the availability of platform variation to play a game.

I have been a gamer for 20 years, and I have seen it and experienced it!

desertstriker

08-15-13, 11:32 PM

Hence, your DW manual did not interest them and never will. That is the acid test to separate the wheat from the chaff.

are you saying you have to play DW to be a hard core simmer? i sure hope not because DW may not have the same alure to them and cannot get into it for their own reasons perhaps being a modern simulator and not a WW2 simulator for example.

biosthetique

08-16-13, 10:30 AM

A sim is a sim!....And a manual is a manual!....Read again Blacklight post!

hellfish6

08-16-13, 01:37 PM

In the hardcore simmers world, there are some distinctions to make.

That community is at least to be divided in half. One half being made up of simmers like you and the other half made up of gamers pretending and asking to be recognized as hardcore simmers when in fact they are buying and playing hardcore sims, in Arcade mode.

Such players are not committed to a simulation, but to an entertainment mode where they can blow the Crap up, in ways that seem to them REALISTIC, with all the Hollywood effects to feel like they were a "A LETHAL WARRIOR". They would meet up on line with their manned up bodies, play a Sim in Arcade mode and club AI baby seals, because "Force on Force" was too hard. Then brag about how good they were. I have seen it, experienced it in Tactical Gamers, SimHQ, etc... playing games such as Arma's, Steel Beast Pro pe, Swat 4, etc...

Hence, your DW manual did not interest them and never will. That is the acid test to separate the wheat from the chaff.

A real hardcore vet simmer, will still be a simmer tomorrow, a fake hardcore simmer will switch after a while to console gaming, anything that shines and easy to play.

The new gaming generation go for ease. Moreover, the ones attracted to sims, will have the same interests in simulation as their counterparts before. People wanting to be James Bond for an hour pretending to be a Hardcore simmers so their wives and kids will leave them alone "SIMULATING", and not have an imaginary stigma attached to "playing a computer game". Then, the other 1/2 that eat, breath the simulation of the complexity and operation of some technologies, and enjoy it.

The only difference today, is the availability of platform variation to play a game.

I have been a gamer for 20 years, and I have seen it and experienced it!

Sorry, but this is one of the dumbest posts I've read in a long time. It's hard to tell, as you write like a 12 year old (though, admittedly, with more proper grammar and spelling) but it seems to me that you're complaining about the people who don't dedicate their waking lives to games, which makes them less valid as consumers of entertainment in your eyes.

Who cares how a person plays a game? All good games allow players - be they super hard core because they prioritize that in their life; or others, who prioritize other things in life and can't invest the time to learn something at an operator-level of efficiency - play the game as they want to.

SH3 was a success because it catered to both. SH4 was almost there too. If everyone only ever made games for the die hard sim crowd, there would be no gamers today - just a extremely vocal minority of zealots who can never, collectively, be pleased.

Who are you to judge one way is the Right™ way to play a game, and the other way is the Wrong™ way? Congratulations - you have the time and energy to invest in something you paid $40 for and know intimately.

I have a job (which, by the way, has me deployed overseas doing the exact same thing most of you here are simming) and a family and a fairly active social life. I still like - nay, love - gaming. I just can't invest the time and effort into it that you do.

I don't care how many rivets a Type VIIC U-boat has. I don't care if it dives 0.25m per second slower than the real one does. I care that it looks like a sub, plays like a sub, and sinks things like a sub. And, yes, unless I cheat, it sinks like a damn sub too.

But obviously I'm the one wrong here and ruining it for everyone else that's a Real Hardcore Simmer™. Where's my Xbox?

Hawk66

08-16-13, 02:14 PM

I think it would be good if you guys calm down a little.

A good sim is accessible to both types of player: hardcore and casual.
Even the king of all sims, which is for me Falcon 4.0, had some in-built settings and game modes...directly aimed at the casual gamer. Or look at the Microprose simulations...

DW does do that job...the only issue is that it would be helpful if the manual would include also a tutorial chapter...running an example mission for the casual gamer...

Herr-Berbunch

08-16-13, 04:48 PM

It's hard to tell, as you write like a 12 year old (though, admittedly, with more proper grammar and spelling) but it seems to me

Please bear in mind we are an international community with a great deal of members who have English as a second, third, or more language. Even those who don't have it as their primary language do a much better job of it that native English speakers returning the favour. Also we are a family-friendly forum, it's possible that the writing like a 12 year old could actually be from a 12 year old, or younger.

Regards,

Herr-Berbunch

Sailor Steve

08-16-13, 05:14 PM

A sim is a sim!....And a manual is a manual!....Read again Blacklight post!
Not necessarily. People say that Falcon 4 is the best aircraft sim out there, but to the pilot a true simulator is a full cockpit mock-up on a gimbal that precisely represents flying the airplane.

It could therefore be argued that a true submarine simulator would be a real submarine interior the 'player' could walk around in. Anything played on a computer is going to be less than that. Some hardcore players would insist that a true sim allows you to turn every single dial and control every single lever, but those are things a captain never does. Everything is governed by what 'feels' real to the individual player. Once again I quote Rockin Robbins: "Realism is in how you play, not in the game settings".

desertstriker

08-16-13, 05:20 PM

It could therefore be argued that a true submarine simulator would be a real submarine interior the 'player' could walk around in.
you mean my dream man cave? lol

Sailor Steve

08-16-13, 06:37 PM

you mean my dream man cave? lol
:yep:

Actually I think the only real possible WWII simulator would be the set from Das Boot, gimballed pivoting full interior with all the controls in place.

biosthetique

08-16-13, 06:42 PM

Wow!...That is interesting how some people felt depth charged and got on the defensive!...They might have identified themselves with some details on the post and they did not like it.

So, they went on to blame the writer of the post as a 12 years old, etc.....

Nevertheless, I don't have the power to make anyone feel, they make themselves feel.

Hence, man-up and take responsibility for the way you feel about that post, don't blame me!....I am not 12 twelve and I already served my country!

Hooowhat?

desertstriker

08-16-13, 07:12 PM

:yep:

Actually I think the only real possible WWII simulator would be the set from Das Boot, gimballed pivoting full interior with all the controls in place.
true lol but considering that i would actually be living in it, it would need to be a little more high tech and have a little more tech in it:k_rofl:

NOW to adress Bios' post. CAN EVERYBODY CALM DOWN?
only 1 person said you posted like a 12 year old and then HB came to your defense. now like was said some people can't just play on 100% realism for their own personal reasons/preferences. but to condem them for what you consider as arcadish (atleast thats what i am geting out of your post as well) that may be a little harsh.

i will admit i misunderstood your post at first but after rereading it several times i think i got the full meaning but i admit i might still be missing something.

Nexus7

08-17-13, 02:02 AM

Btw, the DW manual, despite being a fat manual, doesnt explain anything "in depth", but rather what button does what. Being the interfaces quite self eplainatory, most part of the manual will not be much usefull to most players. It's a reference manual (together with the in-game manual).
But the game is delivered with training videos as well, and that is (IMO) more useful to quickly begin to actually do things. It still requires concentration and reasoning to make meaningfull (and successfull) actions. Then it's a matter of motivation. If one has it then he'll ask questions (for example in here); if not, he'll try another game.
People that want something to "just blow stuff up" simply bought the wrong game (even because they will be disappointed by the raw graphics in first instance) - he'd better buy one from the SH series :haha:.
If I'd try to play a fly simulator for fighters (the detailled ones) just to blow up things, I'd probably throw manual amd DVD in the cellar after 10 minutes as well. Then when everything is more or less understood, there is the need for triggers.
Virtual navies were excellent triggers to add variety to the games, putting in place players stats, rewarding medals, organizing clan-wars (!), promoting players and so on, adding a lot to the bare game itself. Maybe that will rise again :ping:

hellfish6

08-17-13, 11:02 AM

Brag

08-19-13, 06:46 AM

The return of Sonalysts into the fray might possibly include an eventual sub sim.
SH5 failed primarily by its online requirement followed by the game being buggy and arcade type missions. In short, Ubi managed to get its customers mightily oizzed off. SH III, on the other hand (with help of the super mods) has developed a large following for the genre.

Basically a new SH3 with a few features that, I think, would excite this group of veterans and would be a success.

I am assuming the developer would be pressed for cash, therefore limiting what it can do.
The benchmark being SH3 with GWX, but:

Better graphics and physics.
Ability to walk the deck, bridge and interior
Equipment failures
Navigation option with chart showing only entered plot (keep torpedo officers assistance as option).
Arcade option with frequent targets
Have a Bernard who requires supervision
Clouds and weather representing local climate, for example cumulous od a cold front, tropical or summer squalls.
To avoid AI overload, have player boat lead wolf pack.

In rel life patrols were boring but there was still work to do, This needs to be addressed in the game.

biosthetique

08-20-13, 01:23 AM

I like your vision Brag.

I would add:

Possibility to pilot and operate any freighters or commercial ship to experience what it was to be in a convoy hunted down by submarines.

Then, the possibility to take total control of a Destroyer ,ASW trailer, or Frigate class to hunt down submarines.
That feature was made possible in "Enigma Rising-Tide", and it was a very interesting experience.
Then a game called "Destroyer Command" WWII Naval Combat Simulation, was also about hunting down Submarines. Game which was designed to be used in Multiplayer to hunt down submarines from Silent Hunter II. It was unfortunately a failure as an online game due to code incompatibilities, yet a great concept ahead of it's time that could be revived today.

Julhelm

08-20-13, 03:41 AM

I honestly would like the plot solutions completely separate from the TDC. In these games 'realistic plot' always means you can only ever plot a solution for one target at a time, and have to go through all the motions of setting up a new solution if wanting to fire at a second target. When we were doing manual plots during my time in the navy we had no problems at all maintaining 4-5 different contacts using visual observations only. And in real life when doing a manual plot you can use dead reckoning to update your map contacts even if visual reference is lost. Yet in these supposedly realistic sims dropping down the periscope means contacts disappear from the map instantly, lol.

And that's not delving into other strange design decisions in these games like tying the TDC solutions to the periscope only, such that you need to operate the stadimeter to enter range. Or not being able to save presets for different tubes - surely the weapons officer can write down torpedo settings on a piece of paper so he can set them up quickly for successive shots?

And I have to say I disagree about having more work to do on patrols in-between battles. My greatest issue with SH games is how patrols are conducted in real-time with player controlled time compression. It means hours and hours spent for maybe half an hour of tense combat. And tbh I don't have the time to spend untold hours driving around the sea aimlessly - even less so now that I have kids in the house. It worked much better in Silent Service where you had a strategic transit part and a combat part.

I would actually prefer a U-Boat sim to eschew the 'patrol' aspect completely in favor of a strategic meta-game similar to what was in Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe where you basically get to be Dönitz and can direct the overall campaign.

hellfish6

08-20-13, 10:35 AM

biosthetique

09-30-13, 03:53 PM

Darpa Actuv!....Piloting a drone, that is the future!

flag4

10-08-13, 10:40 AM

In real life patrols were boring but there was still work to do, This needs to be addressed in the game.

...potentially the most serious part of the sim. more depth of immersion here would enhance the overall playing quality. crew management, cooking, shift change, repairs...

my god - Das Boot!

Admiral Halsey

05-01-14, 01:07 AM

now like was said some people can't just play on 100% realism for their own personal reasons/preferences.

Like me for example. I've never been able to figure out manual targeting so I always tick that box off.

Trojandronepros

06-11-14, 03:49 PM

My holy grails right now are 1. A new "Dangerous Waters", and 2. A new "Harpoon" (that actually works and isn't a buggy mess).

You should try Command: Modern Air/Naval Operations. It costs $80, and is supposed to be a successor to Harpoon. It uses NTDS symbology.

JU_88

06-14-14, 02:26 AM

War thunder is set to add ships and naval warfare soon, its not yet clear if they will add subs or not.

Imo WT is actually a huge plus for WW2 simulation, that game is free and undeniably a massive hit and while its arcade mode is just that (arcadey) you still have the core fundementals of a WW2 flight / Tank sim in there - and it also has historic and Realistic modes with big rewards to attact players to part in them once they have got to grips with arcade.
In that sense its good tool for generating new intreast in WW2 simulation and great for 'easing' people in rather than just chucking them in the deep end. :) It has potential to encourge people to see what else is out there in a similar vein and pick up something more hardcore.
Admittedly games have gotten dumber in general, but that is just a trend, trends can always change when people get fed up with them I suppose.

Nexus7

07-23-14, 05:27 AM

according to the voice on wikipedia submarines will not be present in world of warships, without leaving room for doubts... so to say ;)

commandosolo2009

07-28-14, 01:13 AM

If any of you play DCS world, I think at some point Naval units was said to be on a planned list of developments, or maybe delegated to 3rd party developers. Take it as 0% confirmed but if it does, boy we're gonna have things to sink. Not sure how this impacts this convo, but a shot in the dark often saved sailors...

JU_88

08-04-14, 08:24 AM

according to the voice on wikipedia submarines will not be present in world of warships, without leaving room for doubts... so to say ;)

Subs in war thunder could be a lot of fun (and hunting them too), but from a practical perspective, I'm not sure how well they would tie in to the game play due to the slow pace of most WW2 subs. Your average WT Arcade match is about 10-20 minutes. Realistic can be longer due to no Auto reloads, or shorter because it has no respawns either :) Anyway that kind of match time could be a bit too short for Sub players to inflict much damage.

Subs would probably have to play a role like bombers do in the air matches, their would need to be AI merchants for them to primarily sink,
Some reckon subs would be OP because they are sneaky and hidden.
I believe they opposite is true, I think they would be abit of lame duck and a rather easy kill because:

1) Every player controlled surface ship is bound to outpace and out gun them on the surface.

2) Most WW2 subs were so slow submerged it would take forever for them to get anywhere in real time

3) On a limited sized map, locating submerged Subs wouldn't be too hard for Escort players, especially as they will know where their spawn/re-spawn point is, an roughly where they will be heading..

4) As per reality, in a mixed Air and Naval match, taking a sub in to battle will probably be suicide.

HerbertMcCheese-Wang

08-12-14, 09:46 AM

BTW have you seen iambecomelife's WW1 overhaul for SH4? He's redoing everything! Right down to the explosions and uniforms. Go check it out http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=156161

I know it's not a new game, but, for the meantime, it'll suffice - when it's released of course *sigh*.

Rickenbacker

08-18-14, 06:34 AM

I agree about War Thunder. I don't play it, but it is getting new people into the sim-ier side of gaming, which is a good thing in my book. Maybe we'll even get a decent online sim one of these years :).

greensleves

08-18-14, 07:51 PM

Ahoy!
To me the golden era of gaming has come to a halt, big company's have ruined it. The gaming industry is dominated by company's like EA and Ubisoft who add new sequals to their games year after year to get even more money. Games like the Silent-Hunter series should be sold to small indie company's that actually do a pretty good job of resisting this trend. Beeing 17 years old I got engaged to subsims pretty early with playing Silent Hunter 4 the release of SH5 was a great moment for me and i still like to play this game a lot after all these years. I think that if we ( the gamers) could get the small companys to create amd realease quality content in the sim branch we could get more young people to play sub sims. With SHO being the future of the SH series SH has turned into another one of these "we want to make even more money" series which you often see from companys like EA and Ubisoft.
Yours
greensleves:salute:

JU_88

08-19-14, 10:09 AM

I'm totally fine with Silent Hunter going over to an F2P model, if that means it gets the fixes and add-ons that are always needed. I don't mind paying for that, My problem with SHO is that its bleeding browser game that's taken 10 steps backward in terms of features from the original Silent Hunter experience. If Ubi decide to do SHO properly by building a proper game with SHVs engine and asset from SH 4 & 5, then I'm up for it and don't mind giving them some more $$ for some upgrades and stuff, but until then Ill just dust off SH3/4/5 and add some mod soup for a better experience - if need to scratch that itch.

greensleves

08-20-14, 06:28 PM

Thats the thing. SHO has taken SH 100 steps backwards.

Grind_and_Click

09-12-14, 02:28 PM

How about making it part of a bigger world as many are saying, with the likes of DCS World and War Thunder.

I posted this on Gamedev the other day-

"Here to exorcise this from my mind, have read the warning posts on MMO's etc, so it really is just theoretical, but will pose a single question in the direction of making it possibly feasible towards the end.

Is there a possibility for an ArmA/take-your-pick-full-sim-game, MMO where like in "Star Citizen" you buy into one ship, in this case "faction of a military's vehicle", yet inserted on a global scale terrain wise, using perhaps the "Outerra" engine. www.outerra.com

Want to be a tank? Buy the tank you want, get a crew. Aircraft? The plane and co-pilot(s) and so on and so on. All made for the game at sim/close to sim level by an independent (vetted) mini development team and put in to the game world, a bit like how Star Citizen held a competition with small development teams to build starships for their game that people would buy individually, at a full game price, yet only the ship (vehicle here) they chose would be available. Here it would basically be like a modding team getting to make a creation an actual part of the game world, and rewarded financially by its downloaded purchases. Perhaps soldiers and players are free, and only very high level weaponry they use would cost anything.

The scale problem? Mining.

Have varying resources, minerals, that can buy fuel etc, that can be hunted with special vehicles, and appear only in certain parts of the world. A person would build a base much like they do in ArmA and begin mining. The game world in Outerra is 1:1 that of Earth, IE actual scale, so in order to allow people to interact and battle- perhaps depending on the base's scale, it will make a "radio signiature noise" that allows it to be honed in on, perhaps by patrolling AWACS.

Going back a little, I used to see people building Simpits on youtube, and others that ran flight sims just for the fun of flying a plane realistically from one point to another, nevermind combat. I understand this is a niche area in gaming, but wondered if it was one that could be developed?

I had this idea before DayZ, but you know the feeling you get when you play, like you're immersed in the world, and scavenging with what you have and making fluid decisions. This is similar, but on a more persistent level, and each vehicle meticulously modelled. You can buy the sim you want, but put it into a world with consequences. Not an inert AI filled poorly detailed space that will disappear when done.

All aspect. Smaller vehicles like trucks, APC's can be bought cheaply as a pack, perhaps AI can be assigned, but there's your micro transaction in these smaller but vastly important vehicles, you'd be encouraged to be a team, part of a "corporation" like in EVE Online, to allow armies to be coordinated. Perhaps in a 1950's - 1960's time frame, so weaponry isn't too overpowered.

Here's one other dangerous and soon-to-be demolished thought- low end gambling eventually, in certain areas of the game, once exploitation is addressed? A financial risk to the success of an endeavour/flight/patrol/attack/exploration, or destruction of your own vehicle/base, but balanced. So if staking a higher risk, thus is gained a higher reward but a balance between what the destroyed enemy's stake is reached. Never above a certain amount, depending on what type of vehicle/base/whatever is destroyed so as to only create a real risk to the experience, not a detrimental habbit.

Lastly in regards to a direction of this somehow becoming fact, is Kickstarter a feasible tool that could make an idea like this a reality? If I made a video featuring gameplay in differing sim games and their aspects, trying to conjour a picture of what the end result would be, be a way to offer a vote to the mere possibility, for then a team to be created from it?

I've posed this idea from a typically uninitiated standpoint, another individual with no history, but hoping to find inspiration from others, in no way would I be the lead, this is a batton to be passed, if it was every anything."

Anyone familiar with the Outerra engine? People I believe would play as a sub, but unsure how the scale would work for them in particular, can't do time compression in PvP fairly on an world sized scale.

Perhaps ships are something you spot with aircraft then choose a place in which to spawn your sub, but it has to be outwith a certain range of the enemy player?

Bilge_Rat

09-20-14, 09:03 AM

The problem with simulations is that they have become a niche market. Big developpers are not interested because the market is too small. That leaves only small developers with an interest in sims. However, they also have to earn a living, which means concentrating on subjects with a potential, basically WW2 and modern flght and land warfare sims.

For those sims there is a lot of offer, i.e. Battlefront with their Combat Mission line, DCS, 777 with Rise of Flight and the new il-2:Battle of Stalingrad. But if you take a close look, you will see all those Devs run a tight ship and use a careful building block approach so enough revenue is always coming in to produce a decent profit.

Naval sims are viewed, rightly or wrongly, as an unprofitable market. The potential market is too small and development costs are too high.

Ice Forge

12-01-14, 12:01 AM

As for Warthunder, not sure on how they will fair on the naval part BUT they do have a persistant map global "World War" mode brewing; with nothing said around it but i have a gut feeling it will look something simular towards WWIIONLINE / Heroes and generals map wise. And in WWIIONLINE i have spent 3-5 hours driving around as a destroyer / cargo ship to transport tanks in operations so thats always possible.

Biggest problems with those games are that they do not need subs as they fill no purpose since there is not a supply convoy system making them obsolete as they have no game :/

zachanscom

01-23-15, 02:16 PM

sims have always been a niche market, it's just that now the market is bigger, and the contrast is greater. the amount of people who play sims is actually larger now than before.

get dr sid, some of the pro and amateur developers here together, throw a kickstarter, use a modern engine, and make a prototype. make sure to accentuate the visual fidelity, as that is the important first impression. and see the money roll in. simple as that.

a spiritual successor to dangerous waters with silent hunter sensibilities, in a new era and setting, with the cryengine or a similar modern era engine that is capable of multicore and good gpu usage, and it's a sure bet.

CybrSlydr

01-23-15, 03:57 PM

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/elanlee/exploding-kittens/posts

Exploding Kittens has raised over $3 million in 3 days.

Pigboatcook

03-12-15, 04:59 PM

The problem with simulations is that they have become a niche market.

Very sad. It seems humans have rejected all but FPS.

Jaqwon_The_Chef

03-13-15, 09:47 PM

I think a company like Paradox Interactive could make some great Subsim games. They already make games that appeal to a niche audience and do extremely well with their historical sandbox titles aka. Crusader Kings, EU4, Hearts of Iron.
Great company that really pays attention to detail and Historical accuracy. Two things this genre needs

Aktungbby

03-13-15, 10:11 PM

Jaqwon_The_Chef!:Kaleun_Salute:

Hartmann

03-13-15, 11:48 PM

Jimbuna

03-14-15, 06:52 AM

Welcome to SubSim Jaqwon :sunny:

ReallyDedPoet

03-14-15, 07:40 AM

Welcome to SUBSIM Jaqwon_The_Chef :sunny:

JU_88

09-03-15, 04:30 AM

I suspect SHO was merely born out of SH5's failure. A way for UBI to try to Milk/recoupe what they had already invested into SH5, (a bit of low risk and cost effective recycling on their part)
A sorry way to see out a once great franchise. But that's Ubi for you.

R.I.P Silent Hunter.

What ever we get next, I hope it gets the building block approach, whether that's though paid DLC or an F2P model, I don't care, just so long as its by a developer who's in it for the long haul and not the '2-3 patches and we're out' approach. And I really hope I will never find my self needing to install 'mod soup' to get the most out of it.

Terragon

03-27-16, 11:46 AM

With a sub simulator, I think the mantra, "Easy to learn, difficult to master" should apply.

Not everyone is a realism nut. But I do think the learning curve shouldn't be steep. I would like to see better tutorials implemented (other than shooting a single target with auto-aim).

I like the idea of getting a casual crowd in a game that is easier to learn, and allows them to take incremental steps towards 'realistic'.

I would love to see better mod support. And by the way, we shouldn't have to mod a game so that it will WORK.

Something cool would be Oculus Rift support, with proper voice activated commands. I would like to see a U-Boat vs. Surface mode where players can play both sides. Speaking of multiplayer, I wish that there was a mode where players can play on the same U-Boat.

One as captain, navigator, torpedoman, etc. Players would have to work together on patrol. I also like the idea of trying to fix things that break on your U-Boat yourself as a damage control party, with some type of mini-game or procedure you have to do personally. Depending on how you do, it can shorten or lengthen the time the system can be repaired (optional).

Some more story-based stuff would be great as well. I know simulations are supposed to be mainly about the nuts and bolts, and while my imagination is great, I wouldn't mind playing in a story with cutscenes and extended dialogue based on real events and history.

There can be so much more there than what they put it without sacrificing the sim. I would love to see a game developer go, "Screw it, we are going to make a sub simulator that will be the measuring stick for all sub sims to measure up to."

I think there is a possibility that a sub simulator will exist out there one day where the casual player would love the hell out of it, and 100% guys would like it as well.

For now we wait and mod SH5 or play SH3 to get the bad taste out of our mouth. :)

Rockin Robbins

03-27-16, 07:43 PM

I think a submarine simulator should be about submarines, not just U-boats. Submarines won their war. U-boats, by their very existence and because they were used, lost their war. Making heroes out of villains seems to me to be doing a disservice to mankind. Not that the men who served on those U-boats were terrible men. The U-boats themselves were inappropriate tools. The manpower they stole, the materiel they diverted, the time they squandered in a pursuit they could not possibly fulfill absolutely guaranteed the defeat of Germany. Every man who died in a U-boat died in vain.

Why? Because England received supplies on the bottoms belonging to other nations. Destroying those nations' property and killing their men absolutely guaranteed that Germany would end up fighting the entire world, sealing its defeat, instead of focusing the war on its natural adversaries, which it could possibly defeat.

This folly is obscured by the fact that Germany's "leadership" made a hat full of fatal mistakes. The utter failure of the U-boat was in good company with dozens of fellow failures, leading the wishful thinkers to wonder if the U-boats could have won the war. They could not. Every kilo of steel, every highly trained and irreplaceable man, every second devoted to the management of the U-boat war was wasted.

So why are so many people captivated by the possibility of commanding such a craft? I believe it is the contrast between the publicly prosecuted and highly promoted U-boat campaign vs the secretively conducted American submarine campaign.

Even during the war, the personal heroes of American submarine commanders were.......German U-boat commanders! They studied them. They analyzed their successes and imitated them. They studied their failures and tried to avoid those mistakes. But the American sub commanders' key to victory did not lie in anything they did.

Their victory lay in the correct analysis of why the Japanese war was different from the war against Britain. Japanese shipping was on Japanese bottoms. There was no risk of drawing other nations into the war against the US by sinking Japanese shipping. Yes, there were technical reasons American submarines were much better than U-boats, but without that central fact, Japanese shipping was on Japanese bottoms, NO submarine could have gained victory in that war, just as no submarine could have won the war for Germany in the Atlantic.

I wonder if American leadership were even aware of that crucial fact? Certainly the Germans never considered it, or they would have confined U-boats to coastal defense and diverted men and materiel to those areas where they could secure victory. But I suspect that American leadership also was blind to the most important strategic factor in the submarine wars of both sides.

I'd love to see a simulator that included the American boats in its world view. I think the opportunity to assume the duties of any single man in the crew is brilliant. I think the opportunity for cooperative play between players assuming different crewmembers is brilliant, although there are dragons there.

But most important is that the game have depth. Just about anything should be able to run on automatic, but have as much detailed manual control available by the player's choice, configurable on the fly, as possible. If you want to supervise the loading of food on the sub and decide where each item is stored, then you should be able to. If you just want to push a button and be supplied, that should be possible.

The dev team needs to be stable over a period of years, with evolutionary updates released every year or every other year. Income needs to continue to come into the company past the several weeks of introduction in order for this to happen. A game with the depth and customization we want won't be built in a year. Or two. Or five.

That's why an evolutionary model of a long-term team is necessary. The game won't be complete on release, but an overall vision of a schedule of implementation of announced goals, along with a strategy to produce a reliable income stream, not just a flash, of money to make this possible, must be found.

It will mean commitment beyond the comfort level of game company and player. It will mean foregoing the popcorn disposable sale of FPS games to millions in exchange for a grueling, slave to reality, long struggle for mere thousands. It's a tough sell. I don't see any buyers.

Julhelm

03-28-16, 04:06 AM

Rockin Robbins

03-28-16, 12:36 PM

Writing in the 1970's Admiral Gorshkov identified one of the primary causes for the failure of the U-Boat campaign as the inability of the germans to support their submarines with surface units and aircraft, thus giving the allies free reign to hunt down the subs with specialized hunter-killer groups. Interdicting these would have been a much better use of the pocket battleships than trying to use them for merchant raiding. But the ultimate reason for the failure of the U-Boat campaign must surely be Hitler's hybris in declaring war on the Soviet Union and the United States in the same year.
Huge factor in why using U-boats as an offensive weapon in the war was grossly inappropriate! And the Germans could not produce enough surface units to control the Atlantic, no matter what, even if they sacrificed every piece of land weaponry ever built.

Their only path to victory was to focus on one adversary at a time, keeping all others at arms length until each one was defeated in turn. That would have required discipline that Hitler did not possess. And even that would not have guaranteed a win.

The best way for Germany to have won would have been not to fight the war at all, to pay off the British and French, then make them dependent nations to superior industrial and management skill.

And Germany should have accepted the Jews as major contributors to their efforts in WWI, proven patriotic citizens who would sacrifice for the good of Germany. The Jews had indispensible talent to contribute and Germany squandered all of it. They thoroughly deserved to lose and defeat looks much more like victory today than victory would have at this point.

But they were led by a delusional madman, worshiping himself, sacrificing his own nation on the altar of insanity.

Julhelm

03-28-16, 02:46 PM

All of the german heavy surface units constructed after the Deutschland class were bad designs that were entirely inappropriate to operations in the North Atlantic, mainly because the steam machinery limited their range.

The invasion of Norway only accelerated the defeat of the kriegsmarine by robbing them of several surface units that could not be replaced.

dominiclevey

04-02-16, 03:18 PM

im thinking about making a spiritual successor to sh5 well ive been thinking about it for a while just need people to help me do it

ZeroAntiquity

04-02-16, 04:03 PM

Interesting...

BigBANGtheory

04-06-16, 04:38 AM

On the subject of what a sim should be like, there is no one size fits all. I personally would not be interested in a hardcore DCS-style sim. I can say categorically that the one sim I had and still have the most fun with is the old Red Storm Rising, with Fast Attack and the original Silent Hunter as runners up.

DCS has a lot to teach other sim, granted the hardcore simulation and study sim style is not for everyone which is also why the developers of DCS have the Flaming Cliffs series allowed to operate side by side.

What do I mean by that...
- Free downloadable simulation with very basic units for players to try out and get a feel for things.
- Free and regular updates to the core simulation with a mixture of improvements, bug fixes and new major releases every few years.
- Players pay for naval units of their choosing with the developer focusing on the most popular e.g. U-boat type7 & 21 and more modern units like a Vanguard class nuclear sub, perhaps patrol boats too anything playable basically but non-playable is all free in the core sim
- All about attention to detail and immersion, knobs and switches doing things, radio chatter, VR
- Having a lite version which includes many playable units but at a lower level of simulation e.g. not being able to walk around a sub interior, but you get many subs

The point is to have a model that continues to fund new development on the base simulation for all by selling new simulation modules to players that want them. From my observation what doesn't work well in sims is where players make a one-off payment for a sim and then require (no fault of their own) updates, fixes and improvements over many years and sims need this.

DCS and Falcon4 are the only sims that seem to have nailed that model and for different reasons. I'd just forget Ubisoft at this point this way of games development is incompatible with their business model... they wont share their code and they wont do rolling updates.