The Way I See It

[Red October1984]

The age of Naval Simulations is over. Companies want to make big, blockbuster, moneymakers. So, as the "new simulation" they release cheap, easy, games that wont last, or they're broken without mods. Are we stuck hoping for a new SH3? Or a new Dangerous Waters. All we get are these little flash games like Battleship Chess. Battleship Chess is hard, and i dont like it too much. Nowadays, The Sims 3 is the top in the simulation category. That isnt a real simulation. Sims are going to free to play formats now. Microsoft Flight, Silent Hunter Online, etc. Maybe I havent done enough research. Correct me if you want, the only sims coming out now are crappy. Or there are very good ones like X-Plane 10. But thats a small company compared to Ubi, Activision, EA, etc.


Thats just the way I see it.

[Sailor Steve]

The only thing companies have ever been interested in is making money. That is why they exist, after all.

I think the best sims have always been made by small groups who really wanted to do them. Silent Service was created by Sid Meier. Aces Of The Deep was Dynamix. Silent Hunter was made by Strategic Simulations Inc. When they were bought out by Ubisoft the downhill slide started. SH3 was a jump up, but after that they started to suffer because it was all being controlled by corporate heads who don't really care about sims at all.

It's the nature of the beast.

[Red October1984]

The only thing companies have ever been interested in is making money. That is why they exist, after all.

I think the best sims have always been made by small groups who really wanted to do them. Silent Service was created by Sid Meier. Aces Of The Deep was Dynamix. Silent Hunter was made by Strategic Simulations Inc. When they were bought out by Ubisoft the downhill slide started. SH3 was a jump up, but after that they started to suffer because it was all being controlled by corporate heads who don't really care about sims at all.

It's the nature of the beast.

I will admit i have never played Silent Service or Aces of the Deep. I hear that they are very good. Microsoft has done some remarkable work with the Flight Simulator series. Now, the new Free to Play Microsoft Flight, i dont think, will ever live up to Microsoft Flight Simulator 2004, 2002, X, etc. I would like to try out AOTD and SS one of these days.

[Hinrich Schwab]

Aces of the Deep is one of the best subsims ever made. Silent Service was good enought to both get a sequel and a NES port, thanks to Konami's old front company, Ultra Games. Both franchises are worth experiencing. As I have repeatedly said in the past, the next great subsim is going to come from the subsim community, not these greedy megacorps who only want cash-cow titles.

[Hawk66]

The only thing companies have ever been interested in is making money. That is why they exist, after all.


Yup, ...else they could not survive ;) at least not within the western business model...but yes, especially big companies strive often for short-term goals due to the stock market.

So, in the 80/90's there was a market for simulation, simply the people were interested in such stuff and the graphics capability were not that strong so game mechanics was to some extend more important than today.

RedOctober is completely right...colleagues and buddies of mine buying iPads and that stuff like the hell, telling me that the PC is dead and buying nonsense games from the AppStore which they delete after a couple of days and buy the next. When you are saying that you are interested in naval simulations, with manuals big like a telephone book (Dangerous Waters), you get a weird look at the best.

The flight sim guys have at least DCS, which is very fortunate for them.

And apart from the Silent Hunter ('offline') series, also the modern naval simulation era looks in a very bad state...I've not seen any message from the Sonalysts guys for over a year now.

[BigBANGtheory]

You have to carve out your own market for SIMs imho, the reason why DCS series works is that it sells itself and they offset some of the development costs with collaboration on commercial contracts.

My point is you need to put something out there that screams High Quality, even if its limited in scope. I think also people under estimate how fed up console gamers are of the rinse and repeat FPS games but they don't want some half arsed attempt or something that isn't up to par on the presentation its got to look real.

Above all else this is what BIS with Arma3 understands, lessons to be learnt.

[mkIpetrucci]

The flight sim guys have at least DCS, which is very fortunate for them.



Agreed, DCS is the perfect counterexample that you can be succesfull and produce high quality simulators in the same time.

[Red October1984]

DCS, i hear, is a very good group of sims. But, the 'puter isnt powerful enough for most games. Im stuck playing the favorites from 2004. Im not saying that my games arent fun as hell. I love a good flight sim. Good naval sim too. One of these days, im going to score a new desktop and catch up on all of the newer sims. Flight sims havent died yet. I dont believe that the PC is dead, I just think the game selection is changing drastically. Pop on over to amazon and take you a look through the Simulations category in the PC section. All I saw was the Sims 3 and its thousands of add ons. The PC isnt dead, simulations are dying. :Kaleun_Crying:



Moment of silence for all the greats.... :()1: :/\\chop

[Takeda Shingen]

All things are cyclical. Simulations will be back.

[USS Drum]

The last good Silent Hunter game was S.ilent Hunter 4

[Red October1984]

All things are cyclical. Simulations will be back.

I really hope so. There is no better genre in the PC world. :rock:

[Julhelm]

*rant on*

If you really love sims that much, take up programming and get working on one. Everybody here is all doom&gloom about how sims are dead etc but just look at the indie forum here and it is utterly dead. Literally no projects going except the random guy doing VS addons or projects like ComSubSim or Danger from the Deep which have been around for a decade and aren't going anywhere.

Like I've said before, I've been trying to launch a decent sub game for years now (I'm an artist) but always get stuck on not finding any programmers interested in subs. Then on these boards, where people are sub enthusiasts, noone steps up to the challenge but instead will bitch about how the evil publishers and casual gamers won't produce a sim for them.

Seriously, with flexibly priced middleware like Unity, Leadwerks, UDK and Cryengine around, it's never been easier to start an indie project on a competitive tech base provided the motivation is there.

*rant off*

[Iron Budokan]

All things are cyclical. Simulations will be back.

^This. As a writer I have seen the same thing happen with genres. I've seen it happen with games, too. It is ever thus.

[Hawk66]

@Julhelm...I think it is realistic to do a 2D sub sim like RedStormRising (concentrating on game logic and simplify the simulation environment a bit)...but 3D with a scope like Dangerous Waters(multi-platform including non-subs, which needs 3D) is a complete other story.

The engines you mention have not the focus on simulations..more on RPGs and that stuff...I am not claiming it is impossible but you would need months alone to learn the stuff to do simulations with it...

So or so to develop a 3D naval sim, you would need to find a bunch of very dedicated people, doing this for a decade or more in their spare time...

[Hinrich Schwab]

*rant on*

If you really love sims that much, take up programming and get working on one. Everybody here is all doom&gloom about how sims are dead etc but just look at the indie forum here and it is utterly dead. Literally no projects going except the random guy doing VS addons or projects like ComSubSim or Danger from the Deep which have been around for a decade and aren't going anywhere.

Like I've said before, I've been trying to launch a decent sub game for years now (I'm an artist) but always get stuck on not finding any programmers interested in subs. Then on these boards, where people are sub enthusiasts, noone steps up to the challenge but instead will bitch about how the evil publishers and casual gamers won't produce a sim for them.

Seriously, with flexibly priced middleware like Unity, Leadwerks, UDK and Cryengine around, it's never been easier to start an indie project on a competitive tech base provided the motivation is there.

*rant off*

It's nice to know you still won't miss an opportunity to let everyone know how much you truly hate the community here. Your argument that no one will step up to make a sim is invalid. The group here at http://www.u-boot-hahd.com/index.html are both working on a megamod for SHIII and are laying the groundwork for a new sim, as well.

[Julhelm]

It's nice to know you still won't miss an opportunity to let everyone know how much you truly hate the community here. Your argument that no one will step up to make a sim is invalid. The group here at http://www.u-boot-hahd.com/index.html are both working on a megamod for SHIII and are laying the groundwork for a new sim, as well.
Oh really?

I've seen that board and IMO it's going to be another vapourware project the likes of other "ultimate sims" like Fighter Ops or Danger from the Deep. Modding SH3 which already is a really good, solid sim isn't even comparable to creating one from scratch with all of the systems modelling and tech programming that requires. UBI tried with SH5 and even they couldn't get it right with a 50-something man team. So the idea of enthusiasts building the ultimate U-boat sim that blows SH3-4-5 out of the water simply isn't credible. Where's the funding? Fighter Ops aimed to be the ultimate flightsim and used one of the first crowdsourced funding models and they've been vaporware for almost a decade. Jet Thunder showcased awesome proprietary tech and artwork, even have a publisher but has failed to materialize, going the vaporware route. Danger from the Deep looked awesome = vaporware again.

What would have been credible would have been SH1-type sim with 2D interface and simpler 3D ships. But designed-by-committee ultimate full-3D all-systems-modelled u-boat sim? It's not a realistic goal. Hawk has it right when he says you'd have to have a bunch of very dedicated people working hard for over a decade and even then it's too big of a scope and since it's community-input driven, it's going to suffer from a bad case of feature creep. Remember S.T.A.L.K.E.R.? Originally set to release in late 2002? Then the devs fell into the trap of trying to implement every feature the community asked for to the point where THQ had to step in and drastically cut the scope down to something that was manageable.

Look again at the indie subsim forums here. It is littered with "never-went-anywhere" projects. And all of them will have failed on setting out with too big a scope and too lofty goals. Or they were one-man visions without the will to compromise and work with others, and died when spare time ran out.

@Hawk66:

The engines I mentioned can be used for sims if one is willing to give up modelling the whole earth:

Combat-Helo is pretty far along and uses the Leadwerks engine which is optimized for FPS's. Naval War uses Unity. For both of these, the compromise is map size. But the question is, do we really need to navigate the globe in realtime in 3D? Or can we live with transiting on a 2D map ala Silent Service and procedurally generate a 32x32km 3D area when combat occurs? Or have a set of smaller but more detailed maps? Modelling a globe sounds nice but it's going to end up like MSFS where you get the entire globe but in pretty lacking detail with a few key areas modelled to look authentic. Interestingly there is a flightsim that uses Google Earth as its terrain renderer.

[Takeda Shingen]

*rant on*

If you really love sims that much, take up programming and get working on one. Everybody here is all doom&gloom about how sims are dead etc but just look at the indie forum here and it is utterly dead. Literally no projects going except the random guy doing VS addons or projects like ComSubSim or Danger from the Deep which have been around for a decade and aren't going anywhere.

Like I've said before, I've been trying to launch a decent sub game for years now (I'm an artist) but always get stuck on not finding any programmers interested in subs. Then on these boards, where people are sub enthusiasts, noone steps up to the challenge but instead will bitch about how the evil publishers and casual gamers won't produce a sim for them.

Seriously, with flexibly priced middleware like Unity, Leadwerks, UDK and Cryengine around, it's never been easier to start an indie project on a competitive tech base provided the motivation is there.

*rant off*

Oh really?

I've seen that board and IMO it's going to be another vapourware project the likes of other "ultimate sims" like Fighter Ops or Danger from the Deep. Modding SH3 which already is a really good, solid sim isn't even comparable to creating one from scratch with all of the systems modelling and tech programming that requires. UBI tried with SH5 and even they couldn't get it right with a 50-something man team. So the idea of enthusiasts building the ultimate U-boat sim that blows SH3-4-5 out of the water simply isn't credible. Where's the funding? Fighter Ops aimed to be the ultimate flightsim and used one of the first crowdsourced funding models and they've been vaporware for almost a decade. Jet Thunder showcased awesome proprietary tech and artwork, even have a publisher but has failed to materialize, going the vaporware route. Danger from the Deep looked awesome = vaporware again.

With stated attitudes like this, it is not surprising to me that you cannot find programmers to work with.

[Julhelm]

Yes, heaven forbid one has a realist attitude when it comes to indie development.

Trying to do AAA-level DCS: U-boat is simply not going to happen unless there is substantial funding behind it to pay people to make it.

Until the HAHD team can demonstrate that, they'll be no more credible than Fighter Ops or Jet Thunder.

So go ahead and prove me wrong.

[TheDarkWraith]

Yes, heaven forbid one has a realist attitude when it comes to indie development.

Trying to do AAA-level DCS: U-boat is simply not going to happen unless there is substantial funding behind it to pay people to make it.

Until the HAHD team can demonstrate that, they'll be no more credible than Fighter Ops or Jet Thunder.

So go ahead and prove me wrong.

Have any of you tried to do any 3D rendering with DirectX or OpenGL? Trust me, it's not easy. It's easy to render a 3D model with them but rendering many 3D models in real time is not. Now you want to add realism to it also (parallax mapping, AO, bump, etc.) and you have little to no programming experience? It will be a LONG time before you have anything even remotely feasible. You can be a great 3D artist but that is just a very small part of making a complete game from scratch.

You need a team of programmers to make a new game from scratch!

[Hinrich Schwab]

So go ahead and prove me wrong.

Oh look. You are back to weasel-wording arguments. Takeda is right. You are the one with an attitude problem. The only thing you have really done here is bash on anyone who complains or refuses to agree with your narrow views.

[Takeda Shingen]

Yes, heaven forbid one has a realist attitude when it comes to indie development.

Trying to do AAA-level DCS: U-boat is simply not going to happen unless there is substantial funding behind it to pay people to make it.

Until the HAHD team can demonstrate that, they'll be no more credible than Fighter Ops or Jet Thunder.

So go ahead and prove me wrong.

I think you are missing the point. You trash a whole bunch of people's projects in the course of your posts and then complain in the next sentence about how nobody wants to work with you. Come on, you can't put those two things together? Improve your attitude and people will be more willing to collaborate.

[Onkel Neal]

Attitude is very important, to developers and to gamers. It's tough to see people who have bad attitudes expect better results.

[Julhelm]

I think you are missing the point. You trash a whole bunch of people's projects in the course of your posts and then complain in the next sentence about how nobody wants to work with you. Come on, you can't put those two things together? Improve your attitude and people will be more willing to collaborate.
FYI I work with other people on shipped commercial projects all the time and never have a problem since I'm always the first to kill my darlings.

And no, I'm not trashing people's projects: I am saying they all ended up as vaporware. That's the truth.

It doesn't matter if they started off with the best of intentions, because in the end they all failed to deliver because ambitions were too high. So what good are community projects like these if they at best fail to deliver (like Jet Thunder, DotD) and at worst scam people through paid-access forums (Fighter Ops)?

Come on. If a project runs on and on for 5-6 years without even an alpha release, then it's not going to happen any time soon. And even if it does, it faces the problem of looking obsolete and poor against the competition so it ends up like Duke Nukem where engines are swapped out, content and code has to be scratched and redone and features are added in the meantime etc. So it gets perpetually delayed as the bar keeps getting raised and when and if it ever ships, it's going to be broken and unsuccessful.

What I want to see is a proper project plan where milestones and deadlines are planned ahead, a design document that describes how the game plays and what features are and are not in, and a funding plan, be it publisher money or preorders with alpha build access. And it has to have someone in charge acting as a producer that can manage things so the project isn't killed over in-fighting between team members or losing a key member. Without this organisation, it's not going to be any more credible than the projects I listed.

For the sake of perspective, consider that DCS runs on about 15 years of legacy codebase and experience. FSX/Flight has 30 years of legacy development. X-Plane about 20 or so? Even Strike Fighters has over 10 years and only began to be "complete" some 3-4 years after release. So if you develop your sim from scratch today, that's the kind of timeline you're looking at before you can reach that level of production values/fidelity.

Again, this isn't a case of bad attitude on my part. If you go look at the state of indie projects, you'll find 90% of them never make it to beta, much less release, for all the above reasons.

[PL_Andrev]

It is no time for "true sim" now. All developers look at our money only and keep attention for arcade or simply games. Unfortunately only the big game companies can give us usually good and playable game.
The open projects have too poor background - examples: undeveloped DotD, SurfaceWarfareSuperMod still not developed, GR2Editor for SH5 is developed by one person only...

At this moment only "World of Battleships" can be good target for us. Developers still change the idea of this game (latest news tell us about shooting torpedoes by destroyers and transport ships) - maybe in the future we'll spot submarines at this - unfortunately arcade game...

Other idea is access to open source of game - this forum join many moders with some brillant ideas. But no open codes for horizon included old project like Battlestations:Midway, SH3 or Enigma:Rising Tide...

[SilentOtto]

What I want to see is a proper project plan where milestones and deadlines are planned ahead, a design document that describes how the game plays and what features are and are not in, and a funding plan, be it publisher money or preorders with alpha build access. And it has to have someone in charge acting as a producer that can manage things so the project isn't killed over in-fighting between team members or losing a key member. Without this organisation, it's not going to be any more credible than the projects I listed.

Ok I think you would make a great Führer for this project. Now we only have to find some people who would want to work under your iron heel... :salute:

[Ducimus]

Personally, i don't think we'll see any more submarine sims (not sure if this upcoming flash based game qualifies or not), and i also see a decline in "big name modding" on subsim in terms of "super mods".

I don't think many have thought about it, but a lot of the big name supermods are made by the same generation of modders on subsim. The scene that developed on SH3 might have been unique. Since then, there has been a steady decline in participation by much of this older generation , and not as many new modders are picking up the baton and moving forward.

Five years from now, half the people on subsim will still be playing SH3 on some screwed up aspect ratio, with no real headway going forward on the other titles that are more current to the technolgoy of the machines these games are being ran on. If people were smart and got together, they'd make a concerted and organized effort to move to SH4 or 5, but the likelyhood of that is remote. There's a lot of loyalty in the community to platforms (be it SH3, 4, or 5), and a lot of "Brand loyalty" to whatever brand name mod of your choosing.

Unless a fire is lit under some asses, and people stop expecting this small cadre of people to make everything for them, i think eventually, things will sort of fizzle out. People need to stop relying on the same old names to provide for them. Eventually, all these same old names will get bored, and move on to other hobbies, taking whatever knowledge they have out the door with them.

[Red October1984]

I agree. If a group of people got together, they could make SH4 and SH5 as good as any supermod for SH3. Take SH5 and add GWX. Wouldnt that be great. But yes. I see people complaining, I have done my share of complaining too, but why cant SH4 and 5 be as great as SH3? It isnt as if its a lost cause, I just think that people have their mind set that SH3 is the best and there will never be anything better. I say, stop thinking like that. Supermods are slowly being developed for SH3? A pretty old game. Mods exist for SH4 and 5. But has anybody sat down and tried to do a supermod for 4 and 5?

[SilentOtto]

I agree. If a group of people got together, they could make SH4 and SH5 as good as any supermod for SH3. Take SH5 and add GWX. Wouldnt that be great. But yes. I see people complaining, I have done my share of complaining too, but why cant SH4 and 5 be as great as SH3? It isnt as if its a lost cause, I just think that people have their mind set that SH3 is the best and there will never be anything better. I say, stop thinking like that. Supermods are slowly being developed for SH3? A pretty old game. Mods exist for SH4 and 5. But has anybody sat down and tried to do a supermod for 4 and 5?

I hope TDW (and many others!) won't need their heart pills when they read this...

It's not as if Ubi has made their games uber-modder friendly, man, he has been even working with damned disassembler to make stuff work, and then patching the exe file... :/\\!!

[Julhelm]

Ok I think you would make a great Führer for this project. Now we only have to find some people who would want to work under your iron heel... :salute:
Here's a better idea:

You find me the funding, and I'll hire you a bunch of competent people to do the job fulltime. That's the only way large, ambitious projects like coding hardcore sims from scratch can be done.

Don't believe me? How many AAA-level indie/community sims not based on a commercially available base have released so far?

And yes, you really do need a führer to manage big projects and make the tough decisions if you want it to succeed. That's kind of a no-brainer.

[SilentOtto]

Here's a better idea:

You find me the funding, and [...] That's kind of a no-brainer.

ftfy

[PL_Andrev]

But has anybody sat down and tried to do a supermod for 4 and 5?
Wake up, sailor! Read forum before spamming!
TMO or OM for SH4 and OH2 or MMM for SH5.
:03:

[Sailor Steve]

TMO or OM for SH4
And RFB and GFO and FOTRS. :sunny:

[Red October1984]

Wake up, sailor! Read forum before spamming!
TMO or OM for SH4 and OH2 or MMM for SH5.
:03:

Ok pal, we're all friends here. :timeout: :D I stand corrected. I dont spend much time in the 4 and 5 forums. I dont own the games, my machine isnt powerful enough. I hope i dont make anybody mad enough to need heart pills. I forgot who posted that, but, I sorry! Im just expressing the opinions i have. I have no experience with programming other than a crash course on Flash Programming i had a couple years ago and never stuck with. :arrgh!: Too complicated for me. All the people who dont have any experience with programming are the ones who complain. Flash Programming was hard for me. 3D game programming is probably evil torture. If you arent a programmer, you shouldnt complain because you havent tried. I have complained in the past, but the past is past. I will complain less because I kinda have an idea how hard it is. If you make an effort and get an actual product, you're farther along than me. An effort is about how far I got a couple years ago with Flash.

[Julhelm]

I have no experience with programming other than a crash course on Flash Programming i had a couple years ago and never stuck with. :arrgh!: Too complicated for me. All the people who dont have any experience with programming are the ones who complain. Flash Programming was hard for me. 3D game programming is probably evil torture.
I'd say the people who don't have any experience programming are the ones saying how easy it is and how the modders can not only fix all that which the professional devs were too incompetent to get right and even create new AAA-level U-boat hardcore sim from scratch.

Anyway, my point is a lot of the people who post on forums vastly underestimate just how much work goes into a modern sim. All of the current products have evolved over the course of more than a decade. In the case of MSFS that is 30 years of evolution. It is unrealistic to assume people working in their spare time can develop a product with the same production quality, scope and fidelity over 2-3 years, which is the window you have before your assets and tech become obsolete. I just can't see why this should be such a controversial opinion on this board.

So yes I agree with Ducimus that we aren't going to see anymore subsims (at least not indie ones) unless people lower expectations of complexity and fidelity to the point where they might accept SFP1-type game with submarines that can be done by a smaller team working fulltime.

[Ducimus]

I'd say the people who don't have any experience programming are the ones saying how easy it is and how the modders can not only fix all that which the professional devs were too incompetent to get right and even create new AAA-level U-boat hardcore sim from scratch.


In college I was a CIS major because i didn't have the mathmatics to be a CS major. At the time, designing/making games was my dream. I believe that is the standard lament of an IT puke this day and age. I took several programming courses. Visual basic to start, then Java, and then to C++ doing win32 console apps, SDI with Doc/View, and other business related things like ODBC. Hell, i took the advanced programming course twice, just for fun. And then I fell into my current job because i couldn't find an entry level programming job, and all those skills (assuming I ever really had them), went away from disuse. I remember logic, but not so much the syntax. These days after 12 years in my current field, I would not put ANY OF THAT on my resume. It's a dead issue.

Anyway, my point is, when I took on making a supermod for SH4, I gained a newfound appreciation for just how much work goes into these games. On top of doing my normal job that paid money, i was doing my "modding job" that didn't pay any money. The two combined, i was sitting in a computer chair for anywhere between 16 to 18 hours a day. That is painful, and there just wasn't enough time in the day to do everything i wanted to do. Through all that, the thing is, your never REALLY editing the game. All your editing is configuration and resource files, and often enough trying to illicit a behavior the game was never coded for through said resource files.

As an aside, I will never bust my ass like i was doing, ever again. It just takes too much out of your personal life.

[HW3]

I took COBAL 68, RPG II, and Basic in college but, never could get hired into a entry level job, so all knowledge went away over time. I do remember how hard it was writing the programs, and debugging them, till they did what you wanted them to do. Believe me, it takes alot of patience to set for hours going over pages and pages of code to find one little error. That is why I never complain about how long a mod is taking to develop.

[Hinrich Schwab]

I took COBAL 68, RPG II, and Basic in college but, never could get hired into a entry level job, so all knowledge went away over time. I do remember how hard it was writing the programs, and debugging them, till they did what you wanted them to do. Believe me, it takes alot of patience to set for hours going over pages and pages of code to find one little error. That is why I never complain about how long a mod is taking to develop.

GW BASIC and QBASIC, here. Debugging programs was a massive hassle back in the old days before all of the nice, spiffy compilers and debuggers we have nowadays, not to mention how mundane OLE is compared to back then when it was all new and spiffy. I wanted to program computers when I joined the army, but the "needs of the service" had me fix radio scramblers, instead. All my programming savvy rotted over time. I can stumble through XML with mixed results and ActionScript is an alien mess to me.

[Red October1984]

I wanted to program computers when I joined the army, but the "needs of the service" had me fix radio scramblers, instead.

Where did you join the army? Which country do you live in? Just wondering, I have great respect for anyone who wears a uniform so their fellow citizens can sleep safely at night.


Again, i have little to no programming experience. I dont see myself ever doing that. I see myself flying an A-10C over some battlefield in the near future, not programming the weapon systems. :cool:

[Julhelm]

GW BASIC and QBASIC, here. Debugging programs was a massive hassle back in the old days before all of the nice, spiffy compilers and debuggers we have nowadays, not to mention how mundane OLE is compared to back then when it was all new and spiffy. I wanted to program computers when I joined the army, but the "needs of the service" had me fix radio scramblers, instead. All my programming savvy rotted over time. I can stumble through XML with mixed results and ActionScript is an alien mess to me.
I took QBASIC and TurboPascal classes in highschool but I never had the talent for it. Then when I was in the navy I was a combat systems operator and stared at radar search plots all day and spent my spare time learning 3d modelling instead. To this day the only programming I've ever been good at is ISO G-code for CNC multiaxis machines :)

[Der_Meister]

Hell, I'd be happy if someone simply updated the DOS version of Aces of the Deep; sharpen the graphics/resolution up a bit, add new textures to the pre-existing screens, include new/updated sound files for voices, engines, etc. and you're set. Gameplay-wise, there is very little (personally) that I would change. Hmmm does anyone know how moddable a DOS game is....:hmmm:

[JU_88]

*rant on*

If you really love sims that much, take up programming and get working on one. Everybody here is all doom&gloom about how sims are dead etc but just look at the indie forum here and it is utterly dead. Literally no projects going except the random guy doing VS addons or projects like ComSubSim or Danger from the Deep which have been around for a decade and aren't going anywhere.

Like I've said before, I've been trying to launch a decent sub game for years now (I'm an artist) but always get stuck on not finding any programmers interested in subs. Then on these boards, where people are sub enthusiasts, noone steps up to the challenge but instead will bitch about how the evil publishers and casual gamers won't produce a sim for them.

Seriously, with flexibly priced middleware like Unity, Leadwerks, UDK and Cryengine around, it's never been easier to start an indie project on a competitive tech base provided the motivation is there.

*rant off*

To be fair there is a big difference between parting with $50 and dedicating several years of your life to accomplish what you are suggesting - and I challenge you to truley enjoy any game you spent years working on, to a large extent you'll be sick of the sight of it and you will know it inside out, so there is not alot of fun to be had in the fruits of your labour.
The things you love can rapidly become the things you hate once they switch over from a leisure activity to obligatory one.

But yeah the games industry is pretty much done with sims. The market for them has shrunk while development costs and consumer expectations have gone through the roof.
So it comes as no surprise.

[Sailor Steve]

The things you love can rapidly become the things you hate once they switch over from a leisure activity to obligatory one.
Reminds me of something I heard a long time ago: "When your hobby becomes a job it ceases to be a hobby."

[Ducimus]

To be fair there is a big difference between parting with $50 and dedicating several years of your life to accomplish what you are suggesting - and I challenge you to truley enjoy any game you spent years working on, to a large extent you'll be sick of the sight of it and you will know it inside out, so there is not alot of fun to be had in the fruits of your labour.
The things you love can rapidly become the things you hate once they switch over from a leisure activity to obligatory one.


Quoted for truth.

I don't have ANY Silent Hunter title installed anymore. SH5 is something that was stapled on top of SH4, with SH4 being something duct taped over SH3. In all three cases, it's the same sim, new shiny wrappers, with each new iteration bringing more bugs to the table.

[Madox58]

Anyway, my point is, when I took on making a supermod for SH4,

Corrected for posterity.
:03:

I do some 'messing about' in C, C++, Visual Basic, and other scripting for different programs.
But I would not enjoy a large scale project myself.

I'm enjoying messing with many different things for SH3/4/5 right now and that's plenty.

Now show me the money? And it's a different story, maybe.
:hmmm:

[JU_88]

Makes me think,
for those of us who are still facebook friends with former SH team member Dan Dimitrescu, you will notice he NEVER posts about his escapades in SH3/4/5, even though he poured his heart and soul into those projects at the time, I cant blame the guy, as I've had a taste of it for myself, I used to love installing mods for SH3 and discovering all the shiny new toys, then I worked on GWX 2.0, but did i want to play it afterwards? not really....
Then theres the IOS racer i worked on for over a year, do I even play that? No! it just brings back too many agonizing memories!
I reckon it must be the same with actors that dont like to watch their own shows or Musicians that dont like to listen to their own albums, painters that dont like to look at their own exhibits etc.

Playing games is for fun, but making them is bloody hard work, motivation is one thing you need, but mental endurance is another!
Ive worked in I.T support, behind a Bar, on a shop floor, all of them had their testing moments where I just wanted to walk out, but nothing came as close to breaking my will, as games development. :haha:

[Ducimus]

Corrected for posterity.
:03:


Oops. Yup, I stand corrected. As modding goes, I wouldn't touch SH5 with a cattleprod on the end of a 12 foot pole.

[Madox58]

Oops. Yup, I stand corrected. As modding goes, I wouldn't touch SH5 with a cattleprod on the end of a 12 foot pole.

I guess I have a 13 foot pole for now.
:hmmm:
:haha:

But I'm only helping figure out how to do model imports.
Not modding the Game actually.
:D

[Hinrich Schwab]

Where did you join the army? Which country do you live in? Just wondering, I have great respect for anyone who wears a uniform so their fellow citizens can sleep safely at night.

I am American.:) I started my army days at Ft. Leonard Wood.


Again, i have little to no programming experience. I dont see myself ever doing that. I see myself flying an A-10C over some battlefield in the near future, not programming the weapon systems. :cool:
The Warthog is absolutely golden when it comes to close air support. "Go Ugly" has a very special meaning. :D

[Red October1984]

I am American.:) I started my army days at Ft. Leonard Wood.

The Warthog is absolutely golden when it comes to close air support. "Go Ugly" has a very special meaning. :D

DUDE!! Awesome!! I live within 100 (Im pretty sure) miles of Ft. Leonard Wood out near Cape Girardeau!! Had a friend go out there! :up:

The Warthog is my all-time favorite. I really hope i get a chance to fly "Ugly" :rock:

Most of my family is Army, but im going to break tradition and go USAF. Ive always dreamt of flying. :sunny:

[Julhelm]

Then theres the IOS racer i worked on for over a year, do I even play that? No! it just brings back too many agonizing memories!
Which IOS game was that?

I worked on Golf Battle 3D (http://itunes.apple.com/se/app/golf-battle-3d/id411944607?mt=8) and Turbo Grannies (http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/turbo-grannies/id422577950?mt=8). Both done in about 8 months (actually 7 months for GB3D - we did TG in 5 weeks). I never want to crunch that hard again (actually I did when I joined EA DICE but at least there I got paid for doing so).

[artao]

LOLOLOMAO
:har:

I'm not even gonna TRY to read this whole thread, but I can't resist commenting on the OP.

If everything was "over" or "dead" that people have declared "over" or "dead" over the years, there wouldn't be much left in the world.
... books are "over", desktops are "over, vhs tapes are "over, NTSC TV is "over" ... I guess I myself then am "over" :haha:

[thebeasle]

Okay I guess everybody's heard about kickstarter.com by now.

I would love to see someone make a X-Plane type sim for subs. However, I'm not a programmer and at my age and occupation, I don't intend to learn how to program. So I can't / won't do it and can't really complain about other who can't / won't do it.

However, I'd like to see a group of programmers do it. I think there's a commercial market for it if it's good. I paid $80 for X-Plane 10. Millions of other people did too. And I thoroughly enjoy that sim.

So for now, I will just be grateful for the modders who took SH5 from a broken game to the best in series IMHO. I would also encourage programmers to take a commercial risk, design a hardcore subsim from scratch, and reap the financial rewards if the game succeeds. I think there's a large commercial market for a high quality hardcore sub sim.

[Madox58]

Julhelm,
What you and many don't know?
There was a 'sort of' attempt to include some Modders on the SH5 project.
Had the details been worked out to those Modders satisfaction?
(NO! It did not concern money!)
I'm sure it would have been a different Game from what was released.

This is all second (maybe 3rd or 4th) hand knowledge mind you.

Is far as I know? An offer was made.
It was turned down.

So Modders will work with Devs and even do it for free IF it's a fair deal.
It don't need money being exchanged.
It demands trust!
Trust, or the lack of it, destroyed what SH5 could have been.

I see the On-Line version very open to the same problem.
They will not trust or contact the Modders.
So they will fail in the same way.

[Julhelm]

Is far as I know? An offer was made.
It was turned down.

So Modders will work with Devs and even do it for free IF it's a fair deal.
It don't need money being exchanged.
It demands trust!
Trust, or the lack of it, destroyed what SH5 could have been.

I see the On-Line version very open to the same problem.
They will not trust or contact the Modders.
So they will fail in the same way.
It got turned down, and always will. Even a one-man indie dev like Third Wire turns this down everytime it is suggested, and for good reason. The people who post on forums and who mod their games are in the minority. The big majority (maybe as much as 80-90%) of paying customers never go online to post on forums. So from a business perspective it would be crazy to cater exclusively to such a small niche within a niche.

As for SH5, had it had another 6 months dev time to finish features and no UBI DRM on launch it would probably have been an outstanding game. Since the online game by definition will continue to be developed over its lifetime I don't really see how it'll die like SH5.

Finally I would like to point out to you that the most commercially successful online games of the last 5 years have all been absolutely closed to modders.

[RC0007]

If only I was as good as the guy in the launch trailer...........

[TorpX]

It got turned down, and always will. Even a one-man indie dev like Third Wire turns this down everytime it is suggested, and for good reason. The people who post on forums and who mod their games are in the minority. The big majority (maybe as much as 80-90%) of paying customers never go online to post on forums. So from a business perspective it would be crazy to cater exclusively to such a small niche within a niche.

It isn't a question of catering to a small niche, it is a matter of listening to the most dedicated and knowlagable players. You presume that the customer base is devided into a small group of forum posting users who want one thing, and a much larger group of casual players who want something entirely different. I think input from this forum would result in a better game for everyone, if only Ubi would listen.

As for SH5, had it had another 6 months dev time to finish features and no UBI DRM on launch it would probably have been an outstanding game. Since the online game by definition will continue to be developed over its lifetime I don't really see how it'll die like SH5.


But it never got that 6 months dev time or much else really. Ubi may say SHO will be developed over it's "lifetime", but how long will that be? Most likely, Ubi will pull the plug as soon as they see it doesn't fit in with their 'get rich quick' business model.

[PL_Andrev]

it is a matter of listening to the most dedicated and knowlagable players.
Meeh! Wrong answer!
The "most dedicated and knowlagable" players are not important gruop with current business model - because it is a small group of players.
It means:
Release product as cheap as possible,
Show as advanced as possible,
Sell as much as possible (trailers, trade marks).

Do you see the place for modders? I'm not.

But it is not so bad how it looks. We still have independent, small developers from 'third world' f.e. Eastern Europe, Russia, India or China.
Hope that success of "World of Tanks" shows the new & correct way to new online sims (and sub / navy sims) in future.

[Herr-Berbunch]

The best case I expect - people new to subsims to Google it and stumble upon Subsim.com, and then find SH3/4/5 and mods. :yeah:

[Hinrich Schwab]

Most likely, Ubi will pull the plug as soon as they see it doesn't fit in with their 'get rich quick' business model.
:sign_yeah:SH5 is a precedent of this mentality being a reality. It is not an "if" it will happen, it is a "when".
There have also been times where I have wondered if an ancillary reason for making SHO was to intentionally shut out the modders because, to be honest, the modders keep showing up Ubisoft by fixing bugs the execs refused to allow its now former dev team to repair. :hmmm:

[Julhelm]

It's a completely different business model, though. With a free-to-play game you cannot simply shut down development unless you want the game to die. UBI aren't stupid. You don't become one of the big 4 mega-publishers by being retarded. They have a franchise and they want to keep it a viable means of making a profit.

[Madox58]

It got turned down, and always will. Even a one-man indie dev like Third Wire turns this down everytime it is suggested, and for good reason.

What you fail to understand is that the offer CAME from Ubi!
Not the other way around.

[Julhelm]

What you fail to understand is that the offer CAME from Ubi!
Not the other way around.
Really? So why was it turned down by the modders?

[Madox58]

Really? So why was it turned down by the modders?

It's all third or fourth hand info so I'm not sure the offer was infact a real offer or just a 'what do Modders think about this idea' kind of thing.
:hmmm:

I don't believe there was ever a follow up on the whole idea probably because the Modders did not jump on it without questions.

Other then that? I have no more information I can reveal under threat of death.
:haha:

I do know that some certain people are watching me on this topic though.
:shifty:

They will be The Men in Black should I vanish at some point.
:o

Just know that not all is as it appears at times.
:|\\

I also like your renders done in Marmoset Tool Bag.
It's a nice handy program at times.
Nice models!

[JU_88]

Really? So why was it turned down by the modders?

AFAIK, it was a 'proposal' that came from some of the Ubi devs on the SH5 project (who were on good terms with the Subsim community),
I get the impression that after they approached the individual modders, they then presented their proposal to the legal & management folks, and somewhere along that road, it got shot down.
Got to see it from their point of view I suppose, collaberating with uncontracted, unpaid & unmanaged volenteers, outside of the controlled development enviroment. Thats got to be a legal & logistical minefield for a big fish like Ubisoft, who want to do everything by the book.
It was a nice idea with the best of intentions, but one it seems, that was never actually going to be allowed to happen.
Maybe if SH5 had been produced by someone like Valve (in the late 90's), it might have been different.

[TorpX]

The best case I expect - people new to subsims to Google it and stumble upon Subsim.com, and then find SH3/4/5 and mods. :yeah:

Agree. :yep:

[Satch]

Oops. Yup, I stand corrected. As modding goes, I wouldn't touch SH5 with a cattleprod on the end of a 12 foot pole.
WPW, Coming from you it must be a really bad piece of work.:-?