Question on Data Rights Management [Archive]

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Pablo

02-06-09, 05:32 PM

Lempereur1

02-06-09, 07:08 PM

Hi!

Jutland looks like a good game, but I have a question about the Data Rights Management (DRM) scheme: does that mean that I can no longer play the game if (Heaven forfend) Storm Eagle Studios goes under and the website is no longer available?

Thanks!

Pablo

Pablo: Thanks for your interest in Jutland!

This is a great question that comes up often.

In the event of the worst, i.e. Storm Eagle Studios going defunct, With the flick of a compile switch, Storm Eagle can release a final patch that can be applied locally, to remove the DRM.

If you think about it, should we did go under, why would we not do this?

Since we would be in a situation of not sellling the game any more, why would we care about copy protecting it?

Norm Koger, Conductor here at Storm Eagle, is still providing support to people who bought his first game, Stellar Crusade - 1988 SSI, 21 years later!

Can you name anyone else in the gaming industry with that kind of record?

Jim Rose
StormEagleStudios.Com

em2nought

02-10-09, 09:35 PM

Lempereur1

02-11-09, 01:18 AM

Looks like we cant hide from you no matter where we go...

Ok you got me...

Take me to your......

Who do you work for?

AVGWarhawk

02-11-09, 12:39 PM

I really do not understand the concern or upset over data rights and protection programs in this game or any game for that matter. :hmmm: Maybe one day someone can explain it to me. Until then, I play the games and not worry about protection programs, etc. :up:

em2nought

02-12-09, 04:00 AM

Who do you work for? The makers of Starforce, we're just mad that you came up with DRM worse than ours. ;)

GlobalExplorer

02-13-09, 10:56 AM

Who do you work for? The makers of Starforce, we're just mad that you came up with DRM worse than ours. ;)
No more. This (http://www.stragames.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=3&sid=682930092ca682872110f89a5e331142) wannabe developer seems to suffer from the same delusions, game appears to be extremely unpopular, too ;)

Bullethead

02-13-09, 12:49 PM

The makers of Starforce, we're just mad that you came up with DRM worse than ours. ;)

That's not in any way an accurate statement.

Starforce was a complete abonination, I agree. Besides sinking roots all through your system files that were nearly impossible to get rid of, IMHO the worst part about it was that it poisoned the whole world against the entire DRM concept. When folks hear "DRM", they think of Starforce, or perhaps Spore which is bad in different ways, and go on the warpath.

Our DRM has nothing in common with Starforce or Spore's system. It does nothing to your system; it's all within the game itself. If you uninstall our game, there's no trace of our DRM left on your system. And while it's still on your system, it affects nothing else on your system. You have unlimited uninstalls and reinstalls. You download the game onto as many computers as you want and easily transfer the license between them all as often as you want.

AVGWarhawk

02-13-09, 02:40 PM

I see nothing wrong with this DRM. It is the nature of games today. They come with a copywrite protection system. There is no way around this as far as I can tell. Oh well, my game fires up and my computer is just fine. What is the worry:06:

GlobalExplorer

02-13-09, 06:00 PM

AVGWarhawk

02-13-09, 06:05 PM

DRM stands for Digital Rights Management, actually.

I see nothing wrong with this DRM. It is the nature of games today. They come with a copywrite protection system. There is no way around this as far as I can tell.

Well I think It is a bit like pay TV, there's always a way around which is to avoid it.

Oh well, my game fires up and my computer is just fine. What is the worry

Sure some people are happy to live for the moment.

Sure, just like pay TV, getting around paying is well, theft. I guess that is part of living in the moment? If the protection right really bothers anyone, then the option is to not load the game. I have never had an issue with any protection device on a game. That includes SF. -shrug-

GlobalExplorer

02-13-09, 06:37 PM

AVGWarhawk

02-13-09, 07:16 PM

That theft remark was completely unnecessary. What I said was no one has to buy products only because they are in large supply. Living for the moment = be happy that something runs at the moment, without knowing whats really going on.

Well, a horse is a horse. Working around something to gain use that requires a payment for use is theft. Working around pay tv to receive the signal then is what? I completely missed the part were you explain something about a large supply. And living in the moment= happy something is running but not really knowing what is going on? So, just what is going on when I play Jutland or any other game with a protection device that causes such an uproar by little few? How would you handle protecting a game you created? Have you purchased Jutland?

GlobalExplorer

02-13-09, 07:35 PM

Not my problem if you think everyone who is advocating to not buy products with DRM must be a a pirate.

So, just what is going on when I play Jutland or any other game with a protection device that causes such an uproar by little few?
I thought that's clear. Concerning Jutland, it will potentially refuse to play every 7 days. E.g. if you have no internet connection, or if the server does not accept your e-license. That's a bit like having batteries instead of a dynamo. Sooner or later someone will forget to charge them.

Other infamous DRM systems limit the number of installs to 3 that's also well known. Of course during the first installs everything will work fine.

AVGWarhawk

02-13-09, 07:43 PM

So, just what is going on when I play Jutland or any other game with a protection device that causes such an uproar by little few?

I thought that's clear. Concerning Jutland, it will potentially refuse to play every 7 days. E.g. if you have no internet connection, or if the server does not accept your e-license. That's a bit like having batteries instead of a dynamo. Sooner or later someone will forget to charge them.

Other infamous DRM systems limit the number of installs to 3 that's also well known. Of course during the first installs everything will work fine.

From the developer and this DRM.

Our DRM has nothing in common with Starforce or Spore's system. It does nothing to your system; it's all within the game itself. If you uninstall our game, there's no trace of our DRM left on your system. And while it's still on your system, it affects nothing else on your system. You have unlimited uninstalls and reinstalls. You download the game onto as many computers as you want and easily transfer the license between them all as often as you want.

This quote is what is clear to me. It could potentionally not play in 7 days?Everything in life could potentially not work on any given day. Does not stop me from making a purchase.

AVGWarhawk

02-13-09, 07:59 PM

Just for kicks I disconnected my internet to see if this game would start. It started without issue. So what you are saying in 7 days if I have no connection to the net and have not played the game within the 7 days it potentially could not start, correct? Perhaps it may not accept my e-licence, correct? One could wait for the internet to work on their computer again. no? If my e-license is not accepted I can go to customer support, no? I have never been without internet for 7 days. Customer support is willing to help. I think these are minor issues really. No worse then losing a key code on a jewel case or having your cat do a dance on your disc scratching it up. You have stated that "other' DRM have been known to limit the number of installs. Here, the developer, said you have unlimited downloads. So, again, the quote for the dev is what is clear.

Bullethead

02-13-09, 08:33 PM

Just for kicks I disconnected my internet to see if this game would start. It started without issue. So what you are saying in 7 days if I have no connection to the net and have not played the game within the 7 days it potentially could not start, correct?

Here's the deal with the 7 days....

Every time the game starts, it phones home to SES to make sure it's really your copy. When it makes contact, it remembers the date.

Now suppose you start the game and for whatever reason it can't contact SES. The game compares the date it last made contact to the current date. If it's been less than 7 days, then the game works fines. IOW, you can go for up to 7 days without an internect connection. But note that this is based on the last time the game made contact. IOW, if you haven't played the game for a week already, and the day you do it again you don't have internet, then it treats this as being more than 7 days.

If it's been more than 7 days since the game made contact with SES, 1 of 2 things will happen, depending on whether or not the game can make contact with SES:

If it makes contact, then it will ask you to re-enter your license number and password. Once you do that, the game will run normally and this date gets recorded as the time of most-recent contact.
If it doesn't make contact, then the game will revert to its demo condition. HOWEVER, this is NOT permanent. Whenever the game regains contact with SES, it will ask you to re-enter your license and password, and resume normal operation.There are 2 reasons for this, both intended for your convenience:

You can go without an internet connection for up to 7 days without internet. As noted above, this time could be reduced by the number of days beforehand since you last played the game.
If your computer blows up unexpectedly, you only have to wait a maximum of 7 days before the game will run on your new system. This period is also reduced by however long it was beforehand since you last played the game.So assume it's been 4 days since you last ran the game:

If the game makes contact when you run it today, it works just fine without asking you anything.
If the game can't make contact, then it will run just fine without asking you anything. It will continue to run for another 3 days, but after that it will revert to demo mode if you haven't got the internet back by then, but will only remain in demo mode until it regains contact.
If your computer blows up today (HD crash, MB fried, etc.) before you run the game, then you'll have to wait 3 days before you can run the game on your new system. But it will likely take that long just to get a new system or repair your old one anyway. Once you're up and running again 3 or more days later, you can download the game on your new rig, enter your license and password, and the game will work with full features.
You have stated that "other' DRM have been known to limit the number of installs. Here, the developer, said you have unlimited downloads. So, again, the quote for the dev is what is clear.

This is quite true. Each license you buy is associated with 1 computer at a time. However, you can have the game installed on as many computers as you want. Only the one with the license on it at the time will run with full features, the others will run as demos. But you can transfer the license between them as many times as you want with just a few keystrokes.

Onkel Neal

02-13-09, 09:01 PM

Lempereur1

02-13-09, 09:02 PM

It's DRM is as clean as it can get.

There are some people who do not DRM. We understand and respect that.

They choose not to buy. Thats ok.

But our solution is the cleanest, easiest DRM on the market.

One other feature that our detraftors never mention is that if you have not connected in 7 days, our server automatically releases the License so it can be installed on antoher PC. If autolog back in, the counter starts over.

This puts control of the License directly in the hands of the gamer. There are a very small number of people who go more than 7 days without connecting to the internet. TO everyone who has purchased our game, our DRM is invisible to them, and they get extremely excited everytime we release and update!

I am sure the developers of Silent Hunter IV would love to release more updates than they are allowed to by the publisher. Thier hands are tied and are at the mercy of the Publisher in most respects.

It also has the built in feature of autoupdating. We are about to release version 1.020 in the next day or two. Thats twenty(20) updates in two months.

It allows us to maintain uniformity in the code by keeping everyone at the same update level.

But if you refuse to purchase because you dont like DRMs, you may find that lack of support of these types of games may result in them vanishing from the market, or, in our case, you miss out on some awesome fun!:yeah:

Lempereur1

02-13-09, 09:07 PM

If you think about it, should we did go under, why would we not do this? For one the code would be an asset, so if SES owed anyone money you just couldn't legally turn over your assets to fans. All one has to do is follow "your" postings on the gamesquad forums to date to get a feel for what kinds of actions "you" might take. Benevolence isn't in your DNA from what I've seen. Apologies to Norm Koger.

I don't think SES plans to "turn over the code", they would simply patch the game so that it would not use the DRM.

Leaving gamers hanging would go against everything we have ever done in Gaming.
WE recently tried to count all the PC and board games that we have been involved in over the last 27+ years and we stopped counting at 68!

If we were in this strickly for the money, we would be making first person shooter games.:up:

em2nought

02-15-09, 01:52 AM

The makers of Starforce, we're just mad that you came up with DRM worse than ours. ;)
That's not in any way an accurate statement.

Let me quantify that, to someone still using a dial-up connection SES DRM/patching is worse than a game having starforce. At least with starforce I could still play Enigma Rising Tide, that is until I had to reformat and throw away my cdrw. Steam is just as bad to me. FWIW

Bullethead

02-15-09, 11:03 AM

Let me quantify that, to someone still using a dial-up connection SES DRM/patching is worse than a game having starforce. At least with starforce I could still play Enigma Rising Tide, that is until I had to reformat and throw away my cdrw. Steam is just as bad to me. FWIW

Apart from making the patches take longer to download, how does dial-up make things worse? All you have to do make contact at the start of the game, you don't have to maintain it during the game. And as mentioned above, you don't even need to make contact at all for days at a time, with no ill effects.

Dial-up is perfectly adequate for the game phoning home. Bandwidth matters not a bit for that; all it has to do is make contact. Seriously, doesn't your telephone work just fine for vox?

I myself live way out in the boonies so only have broadband via satellite, and I only got that about a year ago. Thus, much of my work on Jutland, and everything I did with the RJW game, was over dial-up. This never caused me any problems other than the long time required to download files. And because I have a development build, my DRM is WAY harsher than the retail version. In fact, dial-up in my experience is far more reliable at making contact than satellite, it's just way slower when it comes to downloads.

So I'm somewhat at a loss to know why you think our DRM won't work for you because you've got dial-up. That certainly doesn't match my own observations.

GlobalExplorer

02-15-09, 02:32 PM

It also has the built in feature of autoupdating. We are about to release version 1.020 in the next day or two. Thats twenty(20) updates in two months.

It allows us to maintain uniformity in the code by keeping everyone at the same update level.

That autopatching sure is a fine thing.

But your DRM is not.

Selling a product that will disable itself after seven days is not generous. It's just outright dangerous.

Besides, you could offer the autopatching without the kill switch, there is no logic in justifying one with the other.

But if you refuse to purchase because you dont like DRMs, you may find that lack of support of these types of games may result in them vanishing from the market, or, in our case, you miss out on some awesome fun!:yeah:

I have no problem with that, there are many other fish in the sea.

em2nought

02-15-09, 03:37 PM

So I'm somewhat at a loss to know why you think our DRM won't work for you because you've got dial-up. That certainly doesn't match my own observations. Admittedly my dial-up is really bad, but autopatching is more the concern with dial-up. I usually go someplace else to download anything over 10 MB. If I even leave something like Firefox on auto update it brings my internet experience to a halt. SES type of DRM wouldn't work personally for me even if I had a T-1 internet connection, but then neither would Steam. Maybe, and that's a big maybe, I'd be willing to suffer thru your DRM if I didn't have to have auto patching too, but having BOTH is just too much.

smithcorp

02-20-09, 04:13 AM

Here's the deal with the 7 days....

Plus more.

I just got back from 14 days away from the game (14 days away from my PC, it was switched off and not connected to the internet for this period), started the game up, it updated and started just like normal. No prompting me for licence numbers or anything. Just like I hadn't been away.

So what Bullethead says about the game's DRM is just how it works. I was a little nervous about it when I got back today, having read some others' experiences, and wondered if I would have problems as this was the first time I hadn't started the game for more than a few days, but it was perfectly seamless.

smith

Bullethead

02-20-09, 10:08 AM

Admittedly my dial-up is really bad, but autopatching is more the concern with dial-up. I usually go someplace else to download anything over 10 MB.

I know what you're talking about. Back when I had dial-up, I had to go into town periodically to get big downloads off a hotspot.

Our autopatching really isn't that big a deal even for dial-up, however.

First off, it's not really automatic, it's optional. The automatic part is that the game always checks if there's a patch available, but then it asks you if you want to download it. If you say "no", the game will still work just fine, but of course won't have whatever fixes are in the patch. The game will ask you again if you want the patch next time you run it, so saying "no" isn't forever.

Second, the vast majority of our autopatches are only 1-2 megs. Even my old 23.6K dial-up could get them in the time it took me to pump bilges and get another beer. Only on very rare occasions is one of our patches even 10 megs. When one of these came along, I would decline it to start with and then download it overnight.

So really, the only thing dial-up can't handle is the initial download. The RJW game is about 350 megs and Jutland is about 620. But these are installers, so you can get them at a hotspot on your laptop, then copy them to and install them on your desktop when you get home. After that, the desktop's dial-up can handle the autopatching.

Bullethead

02-20-09, 10:10 AM

I just got back from 14 days away from the game (14 days away from my PC, it was switched off and not connected to the internet for this period), started the game up, it updated and started just like normal. No prompting me for licence numbers or anything. Just like I hadn't been away.

Thanks for the endorsment :)