Most often asked Questions (& Answers) for DW (Tactical)?

[OneShot]

Most of you should know by now that there is a Wiki for DW (which is slowly growing) and can be found here : http://www.commanders-academy.com/wiki/index.php?title=Dangerous_Waters_-_Wiki

Now in one of the posts ML mentioned that the tactical question posted by a newbie is one that has been asked over and over and that he (ML) should get it included in the FAQ. Now those who have taken a look at the Wiki should have noticed the link to the "Tactical FAQ" which as of now is empty. However I want to change that, and I'm looking for help from the community.

So what do I have in mind - specifically?

Please post one or more questions you think are so basic and are asked so often that they should be included in a FAQ. Preferably add your answer to this question as well. Others may add additional points to that answer or simply post their own questions/answers. I'll monitor this thread and put the questions and answers in the wiki (formatted and merged where needed) so that in the future we can direct the people who have asked a question thats in the FAQ either to the FAQ itself or simply copy & paste the information therein to the relevant thread here. Of course credit will be given in the wiki to those who came up with the questions and answers.

If by chance, anybody wants to add directly to the FAQ or edit stuff in the Wiki, feel free - thats what its for.

Link to the Tactical FAQ : http://www.commanders-academy.com/wiki/index.php?title=Tactical_FAQ

Thanks in advance for your help people.

Cheers
OS

P.S. : Please post only Tactical Stuff here, General questions like "Why does SCS not allow modders to make new playables?" and technical stuff are already part of the relevant FAQs.

[OneShot]

C'mon, that ridiculous ... 69+ Views and not a single reply with even one Q&A? How hard can it be to do something most of the regular hands in this here community do on a near regular basis? Apparently its easier to write the same stuff over and over ... this is quite dissapointing.

Maybe it needs a little help ... so how bout this ? "The TMA is so hard, what do I have to do to get a good TMA solution?" Or "I'm shooting all my torps at my target but none of them hits ... when I turn on truth I see that the target is in a totally different patch of ocean - this game must be totally broken (or I'm too dumb)?" Those are just two examples ... and there are many more out there.

[NefariousKoel]

+1 view. :p

Honestly, I haven't asked any of these questions in years and years. Up to the new guys, I guess.:hmm:

[OneShot]

The newbies dont know the answers ... they are looking for them. Its not the point to simply collect the questions ... whats needed are the questions together with the apropriate answers and thats something the "old hands" could do, after all they answer the same questions over and over again on this here board. So they should be familiar with the most often asked questions and they have proven they have the answers ...

[Camaero]

If anyone is up to it, I think one video of someone showing exactly what they do from start to finish when it comes to sinking an ememy sub or something would be golden.

[Molon Labe]

I added classification for submarines to the tactical section. It might be better placed in the other FAQ, though, but if we want it there we'd need a general submarine section (right now all the sections are individuated).

[DURUK]

'eyy.. i've heard someone is calling my name.. yep "newbie" i am at dw.. and i'd die for a tactical FAQ so thanx in advance all and especially oneshot..
a video as Camaero described would be also great however i am not sure if it will be covering all the tactics which can be employed in dw..

anyway, as a contribution i may ask something which i'm not also sure for being suitable on listing at tactical FAQ but was considering to ask today anyway so..

* i've seen some explanations of how crazy ivan tactic is being carried out. but could not find the aim of it (what good for is turnin' 360' with shouting out that you're there, if i may say)

[Molon Labe]

You know, a video is a little much for me too, but a few weeks ago I made a training mission with a written walkthrough that more or less might be what he's looking for. Has anyone seen Bill latey?

[OneShot]

Well, at least one has stepped up to the plate till now - thanks ML.

As per MLs suggestions I have broken down the Tactical FAQ into 3 pages, one each for submarines, surface and airborne platforms since most tips apply to all platforms within one category and exceptions can be easily noted.

The question put forward and answered by ML btw. : How can I classify contacts accurately?
Link to it : http://www.commanders-academy.com/wiki/index.php?title=Tactical_FAQ_-_Submarines

Now where is the rest of our walking Knowledgebase?

Cheers
OS

P.S. : Suggestions, Ideas and Critique are welcome.

[OneShot]

Here are some questions for the Tactical FAQ (for starters, copied & pasted together from various threads):


Is there a recommended platform to focus on and then a logical path to head down towards mastering the platforms?
How to use Sonobuoys?
What are the individual Sonobuoys good for?
How can I make the DEMON work?
Can masts, antennas and periscopes ever be detected by radar?
Whats the use of setting torpedo floor, ceiling values?


and here are some posted by ballernik here (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=113363)

1. when autosonar is on, the sonar picks up lots of contacts as unknown. problem is it stays this way for ever. the autosonar guy really never classify contacts and when u head in the sonar room to look urself u can classify a contact in seconds using the broadband and then the narrowband search. How come the autosonar never classifies contacs?

2. "torpedo in the water bearing xxx" how do u know if the torpedo is fired on u, or on someone else? i sometimes get the characteristc sound of a "high pitch noise", which seems to get more intense if the torpedo is close, and less frequent when the torpedo is further away, i think? so, are there any good ways of finding out when a torpedo is fired at you?

3. followup to question 2, when to lauch countermeasures effective?

4. i follow a unkown contact so close that i litteraly can see it on the 3d map. but it stays unkown... this is my most annoying problem that the game never can classify.

5. what depths and speeds are best for staying undetecxted? i know so much that u cant run on flank speed when at about 60 feet. i would assume that the deeper u go, the harder u will be to spot? so try to go as deep as possible all the time?

[btaft]

As a newb to DW I would think scripted "mission" tutorials with screen shots and descriptions would have the most value (i.e. finding, tracking, identifying and attacking a target from a sub or an air assett). The individual components of the system are relatively straight forward to learn, where the tactics come in is tying all of these components together to gie you the information you need to make a decision. Along these lines some tactical questions to consider:

1) When to deploy/retract the towed array...do you keep it deployed, etc
2) When to use an xbt...does this make a sound
3) How to effectively use sonubuoys (i.e. patterns, types)
4) When do you switch over to MAD,SAD
5) If attacking surface contacts from the sub how close should you try to get

I think a step by step tutorial of a PC3, FFG and a Sub finding and identifying and attacking a sub would be very informative

Also a step by step tutorial of a sub identifying that it is being attacked and evading the fish.

Just some thoughts

[OneShot]

Sure, such a tutorial is quite nice ... just need to find someone to actually write it. On top of that, unlike in SC and 688 there are no triggers for user actions, so making tutorials is kinda handicapped.

Btw. now that I think about it, there are two tutorials around, one for the Kilo Demo mission and one for the MH-60 Demo Mission (both can be found over at the CADC - the Kilo even in the Wiki already).

[Molon Labe]

Here are some questions for the Tactical FAQ (for starters, copied & pasted together from various threads):

Is there a recommended platform to focus on and then a logical path to head down towards mastering the platforms?
How to use Sonobuoys?
What are the individual Sonobuoys good for?
How can I make the DEMON work?
Can masts, antennas and periscopes ever be detected by radar?
Whats the use of setting torpedo floor, ceiling values?

OK, this really makes me wonder... What are the respective scopes of the general and tactical forums?

[fatty]

I'm a little confused myself. Most of the things here seem to be operational questions, e.g. "how do I launch a missile," and are probably answered somewhere in the manual. This is compared to what in my mind is a tactical question, e.g. "when do I launch a missile." Perhaps some clarification on what you're looking for would be helpful.

PS: I offered to do a narrated tutorial for each platform. If the big shots here think it would be helpful (or can suggest something of a similar nature) I will still be happy to oblige.

[OneShot]

Well, the General FAQ is suppsoed to have answers like:

- Where can I purchase DW
- Where do I find other players
- Why can't I add playable platforms
- ...

That sort of stuff. On the other hand the Tactical FAQ is supposed to deal with questions and problems within the game (Tho I admit, "Tactical" might not be the best choice of words).

Thats where those questions would come in:

1. Is there a recommended platform to focus on and then a logical path to head down towards mastering the platforms?
2. How to use Sonobuoys?
3. What are the individual Sonobuoys good for?
4. How can I make the DEMON work?
5. Can masts, antennas and periscopes ever be detected by radar?
6. Whats the use of setting torpedo floor, ceiling values?

I have to admit tho that only Questions 2, 5 and maybe 3 and 6 would really fall in the realm of Tactical and the other questions are more related to "How to operate stuff".

I'm open for suggestions ... I think those questions and some others like them are still valid "FAQ" questions as they appear often enough, tho question would be how to effectively structure the resulting FAQ(s).

@Fatty: A narrated tutorial would certainly be appreciated, and I'm sure Bill would host them and depending on their size I'd host them as well.

[DURUK]

ok.. although the previous message was clearly ignored :nope: i'll give one more try..
what i understand from "tactical" (or simply what i'm in need of as a newbie to DW) is not to know how to operate stuff but when and what for to operate the stuff..
i can find all the information regarding the individual sonobuoy characteristcs, usage of DEMON, setting torpedo values etc somwhere in the 562 paged manual..
what i need to know is (assuming other newbies would be thinking the same) how to approach / sneak to a convoy, what i can do to loose track if i'm sure that i'm being shadowed, how to employ evasive measures (although i've found related threads about this) and anything i cant think here but you experienced folks have adopted as tactics and etc.. (i also agree with btaft regarding his points) :yep:
In my previous post i've asked about crazy ivan.. i know how it is done but i don't know what for it is being done.. guys, i'm trying to survive with tactics left from SH series pls help

[OneShot]

No your message wasn't ignored ...

And I have to disagree partially with you ... Yes the manual tells you for example how to set torp presets and How to feed data to DEMON ... but it doesn't tell you what Torp Presets for example would be a good idea in any given tactical situation or what you can do with the information from demon (for example look at MLs entry in the Tactical Sub FAQ). So that information is something that would fall under "Tactics" and therefore in the realm of the FAQ. And yes, things like how to approach a convoy and evasive tactics are something that needs to be covered as well.

As for your question about crazy Ivan ... A crazy Ivan is akin to clearing the baffles, the sub is simply looking behind to see if someone is where its sonar cannot hear. You could do this by altering course say 90° to the left or right or in a full circle which is in effect a "Crazy Ivan".

Cheers
OS

[DrMilton]

A crazy Ivan is akin to clearing the baffles, the sub is simply looking behind to see if someone is where its sonar cannot hear. You could do this by altering course say 90° to the left or right or in a full circle which is in effect a "Crazy Ivan".



Why would a sub have trouble hearing behind it? Isn't there where the TA is? :confused: (ok except kilo)

[btaft]

Sure, such a tutorial is quite nice ... just need to find someone to actually write it. On top of that, unlike in SC and 688 there are no triggers for user actions, so making tutorials is kinda handicapped.



I agree finding the author would be the hard part because if you have figured out how to use everything effectively then you are probably spending your time using them effectively :D (I probably would)

A tutorial could be written without start/stop triggers. Just a stack of screenshots from an experienced skipper performing one of the missions with a little bit of text explaining what and why things are being done.....kind of like watching over their shoulder and having them explain it to you.

Although any help is appreciated. I will have to check out the links you listed

Regards,

BT

[DURUK]

oneshot thnx for the answer..
ok.. the fact is that i'm so new i wont be seperating any info.. all is wellcome

[Ori_b]

2 questions but alas - no answers, dont know them...sorry

1. Can i detect hovering hilos with the sonar?
(i know it was asked,but i couldnt find the answers by SEARCH)

2. How do i know if i'm in a CONVERGENCE ZONE, and can this knowledge help me in the TMA process.

[Molon Labe]

2 questions but alas - no answers, dont know them...sorry

1. Can i detect hovering hilos with the sonar?
(i know it was asked,but i couldnt find the answers by SEARCH)

2. How do i know if i'm in a CONVERGENCE ZONE, and can this knowledge help me in the TMA process.

OK, those aren't frequent questions, but I'll bite. Check the wiki a few minutes from now.

[Molon Labe]

2 questions but alas - no answers, dont know them...sorry

1. Can i detect hovering hilos with the sonar?
(i know it was asked,but i couldnt find the answers by SEARCH)

2. How do i know if i'm in a CONVERGENCE ZONE, and can this knowledge help me in the TMA process.
OK, those aren't frequent questions, but I'll bite. Check the wiki a few minutes from now.

OK, I answered 2 in the Wiki. I won't answer 1 there, because all my testimony would be hearsay and I can't think of an exception to the hearsay rule that would make it admissible. :know:

But I've heard from reliable sources that the helos can be heard in BB sonar when they're very low and very close. I've never seen it myself.

[Frying Tiger]

I just did a quick test with the mission editor, and a MH-60 hovering at 60 ft shows up on a 688i's sphere broadband within 500 yards. It's very faint, but you can see it on the long-time display before you can on the short-time display. I wasn't able to get a narrowband contact, but I didn't try too hard or get within a hundred yards or so.

Basically, if you pick it up and it's hostile... ulp!

[OneShot]

Yeah, detection with Stock DW has worked, the Helo for starters even has a SL entry. Tho it was always rather faint and it only works below 100ft of altitude (or even less).

However I think Lw mentioned something way back when he introduced the TIW for missiles that helos and aircraft can't be detected by sonar anymore. So the answer probably is two fold ... in Stock DW it works, while in LwAmi it doesn't.

Can anyone confirm?

Cheers
OS

P.S. : I've added some questions to the FAQ, maybe someone could look into them.

[Molon Labe]

I just did a quick test with the mission editor, and a MH-60 hovering at 60 ft shows up on a 688i's sphere broadband within 500 yards. It's very faint, but you can see it on the long-time display before you can on the short-time display. I wasn't able to get a narrowband contact, but I didn't try too hard or get within a hundred yards or so.

Basically, if you pick it up and it's hostile... ulp!

Or, some nutjob from the CIA needs to get aboard really, really badly. Or perhaps an exercise umpire.

[Ori_b]

Good reading Molon, thanks. :up:
I would think about changing the headline because you expand your explanation to the affect of a CZ on TMA done in that condition.

[Molon Labe]

Good reading Molon, thanks. :up:
I would think about changing the headline because you expand your explanation to the affect of a CZ on TMA done in that condition.

Eh, I don't want the question itself to be more than one question. That would make it hard to browse. If there is a separate TMA Q/A, then that part of the CZ answer would be worth repeating.

[SeaQueen]

what i need to know is (assuming other newbies would be thinking the same) how to approach / sneak to a convoy, what i can do to loose track if i'm sure that i'm being shadowed, how to employ evasive measures (although i've found related threads about this) and anything i cant think here but you experienced folks have adopted as tactics and etc.. (i also agree with btaft regarding his points) :yep:


Heh, the people who really know can't going to tell you, leaving you with the people who are making guesses themselves. Some are good, some are not so good.

Have you tried the RIMPAC-CSG, NATO EXWAR Exercise, or Kara Sea Strategic ASW missions? I try to include with each of my missions a set of slides that explain something about the tactical problem posed by the scenario. It won't necessarily tell you how to solve the problem (there's usually not really any single answer), but it should give you an idea of the variables involved so that you can come up with your own answer. Just as a fair warning, Kara Sea Strategic ASW takes a long time to play, typically, because it's a search problem so if you don't see anything right away it doesn't mean it's not there. Don't try to play that one in a single sitting.

[LoBlo]

Here's the the question that has always bothered me... I have a 40x40 nm area to patrol in my SSN (lets say a 688) and I'm task with intercepting a hostil SSN that I KNOW is transiting the area. Assuming that I has the acoustic advantage in terms of sonar and quieting and assuming that the enemy sub is going slow and quiet through the area (lets say an Akula II transiting at 5knots) what is the optimal search pattern?

Whenever I face this scenario I always end up assuming a back and forth pacing, sprint and drift. I setup at on edge of the patrol zone and listen a bit. Then I sprint to the middle and listen a bit. Then I sprint to the other end and listen a bit. I know that my sprints will loose my acoustic advantage, but I'm paranoid that if I don't cover ground the target will float by while I'm at the other end of the patrol zone.

Is there a better way to do it?

[LoBlo]

I just did a quick test with the mission editor, and a MH-60 hovering at 60 ft shows up on a 688i's sphere broadband within 500 yards. It's very faint, but you can see it on the long-time display before you can on the short-time display. I wasn't able to get a narrowband contact, but I didn't try too hard or get within a hundred yards or so.

hm... that's pretty cool, I never actually knew that the helo's would show up at all. Time to start paying attention to those BB contacts without NB signals. Looking at the db, it looks like the NB frequencies of the helos was set higher than the sub sonar range so that the sub will never actually get a NB signal (someone correct me if I'm wrong)... seems logical because helo rpms are actually pretty low that they never really even get past a few Hz.

[Molon Labe]

what i need to know is (assuming other newbies would be thinking the same) how to approach / sneak to a convoy, what i can do to loose track if i'm sure that i'm being shadowed, how to employ evasive measures (although i've found related threads about this) and anything i cant think here but you experienced folks have adopted as tactics and etc.. (i also agree with btaft regarding his points) :yep:

Heh, the people who really know can't going to tell you, leaving you with the people who are making guesses themselves. Some are good, some are not so good.

Have you tried the RIMPAC-CSG, NATO EXWAR Exercise, or Kara Sea Strategic ASW missions? I try to include with each of my missions a set of slides that explain something about the tactical problem posed by the scenario. It won't necessarily tell you how to solve the problem (there's usually not really any single answer), but it should give you an idea of the variables involved so that you can come up with your own answer. Just as a fair warning, Kara Sea Strategic ASW takes a long time to play, typically, because it's a search problem so if you don't see anything right away it doesn't mean it's not there. Don't try to play that one in a single sitting.

Kara Sea Strat ASW only takes 4-6 hours or so of game time, most of which can be played at max time compression. The red subs are so noisy they can be heard very, very far away, so the mission goes quickly even considering the size of the AO.

[SeaQueen]

Kara Sea Strat ASW only takes 4-6 hours or so of game time, most of which can be played at max time compression. The red subs are so noisy they can be heard very, very far away, so the mission goes quickly even considering the size of the AO.

Fair enough, the thing is a lot of people fail to make the most use of the time compression feature, so they get panicky when they don't see something in the first few minutes. I noticed that in early versions the subs tended to cavitate a lot. I tried to fix that in subsequent versions. I've also added some randomization of their depths, that seems to have a big effect on their detection range, which is interesting.

[Molon Labe]

Here's the the question that has always bothered me... I have a 40x40 nm area to patrol in my SSN (lets say a 688) and I'm task with intercepting a hostil SSN that I KNOW is transiting the area. Assuming that I has the acoustic advantage in terms of sonar and quieting and assuming that the enemy sub is going slow and quiet through the area (lets say an Akula II transiting at 5knots) what is the optimal search pattern?

Whenever I face this scenario I always end up assuming a back and forth pacing, sprint and drift. I setup at on edge of the patrol zone and listen a bit. Then I sprint to the middle and listen a bit. Then I sprint to the other end and listen a bit. I know that my sprints will loose my acoustic advantage, but I'm paranoid that if I don't cover ground the target will float by while I'm at the other end of the patrol zone.

Is there a better way to do it?

The best approach would probably be to guestimate (or test and actually find out) the maximum speed you can run at and still be able to detect the target first. That speed is going to dictate the pattern you patrol.

If you can't cover enough area while remaining undetected, then sprint and drift may become necessary. It isn't necessarily a 'good' option though, because you enemy will probably be able to avoid you if he can hear your first (well, a human opponent, anyways).

[SeaQueen]

Is there a better way to do it?

What you're doing is probably as good as anything. There exist mathematically optimal search patterns but often the difference between them and just going back and forth is small. You'd be surprised, though, how important the ratio between the target's speed and the searcher's speed are. I suspect that if I worked it out, you probably derive a pretty significant benefit from the sprint-and-drift tactic you described because it has the effect of upping your search rate. It's interesting though, because it's also a two sided game when you throw in counter detection.

Something I've noticed that I think is interesting, though, is that scenario designers tend to make barrier searches like you described too short, with insufficient randomization of the target's initial location to allow for the possibility of failure. That bothers me, because when I examine the mission I realize that the outcome is essentially canned.

[LoBlo]

Something I've noticed that I think is interesting, though, is that scenario designers tend to make barrier searches like you described too short, with insufficient randomization of the target's initial location to allow for the possibility of failure. That bothers me, because when I examine the mission I realize that the outcome is essentially canned.

Lack of randomization bothers me as well. The best barrier patrol mission that I've come across is BobbyZero's WithX3tremePredjucide Mission, but modified with randomized SSBN and SSN starting points. Trying to find a Ohio with an Akula and dodging the SSN/SAG screen is tricky.

[GrayOwl]

However I think Lw mentioned something way back when he introduced the TIW for missiles that helos and aircraft can't be detected by sonar anymore. So the answer probably is two fold ... in Stock DW it works, while in LwAmi it doesn't.

Can anyone confirm?

Cheers
OS


Yes, for this reason the noise of the helicopter is cancelled [Altitude Sonars Detection - Removed]. Differently you will have on Sonars of the signature ASW of Missiles...

[Molon Labe]

Is there a better way to do it?
What you're doing is probably as good as anything. There exist mathematically optimal search patterns but often the difference between them and just going back and forth is small. You'd be surprised, though, how important the ratio between the target's speed and the searcher's speed are. I suspect that if I worked it out, you probably derive a pretty significant benefit from the sprint-and-drift tactic you described because it has the effect of upping your search rate. It's interesting though, because it's also a two sided game when you throw in counter detection.

Something I've noticed that I think is interesting, though, is that scenario designers tend to make barrier searches like you described too short, with insufficient randomization of the target's initial location to allow for the possibility of failure. That bothers me, because when I examine the mission I realize that the outcome is essentially canned.

Well, that's a bit of a leap. Detection might be preordained, but that alone does not necessarily determine the outcome. It's a big step though.

I have to wrestle with this every time I design, because the speeds that these vessels travel at relative to the detection ranges are very small. To make detection or non-detection solely a function of the players and not the design, you have to make the "attacker" transit substantial distances. It's very difficult to get those into the "standard" 2-hour timelength for a DW match... which is why several of my later missions are not designed with the 2-hour standard in mind!

[SeaQueen]

Well, that's a bit of a leap. Detection might be preordained, but that alone does not necessarily determine the outcome. It's a big step though.

I have to wrestle with this every time I design, because the speeds that these vessels travel at relative to the detection ranges are very small. To make detection or non-detection solely a function of the players and not the design, you have to make the "attacker" transit substantial distances. It's very difficult to get those into the "standard" 2-hour timelength for a DW match... which is why several of my later missions are not designed with the 2-hour standard in mind!

Detection might not determine the outcome, but it usually dictates who shoots first, all things being equal. Usually the person who shoots first win. It's not a done deal, but in my experience they have a substantial advantage. Unless they're doing something dumb and just shooting down a line of bearing. Even then, though, the way some of these scenarios are designed, they'll almost always hit because everyone starts off too close together to begin with.

I don't even pretend to design for 2 hours or any particular time in general. In 2 hours, at 5 kts, you travel less than a third of a CZ range. That makes no sense. If there's no CZ and figure maybe a ~10Nmi direct path range, it makes even less sense. Sometimes it's fun to just throw some subs down and shoot some torpedoes, but in the end, you miss out on what makes submarine warfare challenging; finding the submarines. That's the hunt.

[OneShot]

Da Bump ...

Btw. the Wiki is slowly growing and it would be great if people take a look and maybe correct or add stuff where needed. For those who have already contributed things to the community like guides and manuals, it would help if you copy&paste them in the wiki as well. For starters we have one single resource for all players and (if you are interested in it) that would be the opportunity for others to expand and where necessary correct your work.

Cheers
OS