Anyone do this to locate an enemy?

[MarkShot]

I playing a custom mission I made which randomly throws some merchants together and one hostile sub.

I spent quite a bit of time looking for the hostile sub, but couldn't pick up a contact.

So, I pulled in the TA (making sure that I would be ready to run). I was pretty confident in my ability to be able to evade a torpedo from a distant enemy.

I then began periodic sprints at 15kts with slow downs to 5kts and ping or two. The enemy was too distant to be able to mark active, but from the echo return I had him at about 50kyds.

Finally, after doing this for a while, I drew a TIW. I promptly altered course and went to flank for 10 minutes or so. Then, I came to 5kts and deployed the TA. All was quiet ... no torpedo on my tail. In the meantime, I did mark the bearing of the TIW combined with the range from active sonar. I think I now have a fairly good idea where the enemy is located. Of course, I still need to find him and dispatch him.

Comments? Reasonable tactics or a totally gamey approach based on my confidence on being able to beat an AI torpedo?

Thanks.

[Dr.Sid]

Well .. if the price is worth the risk, why not, even IRL.

But IRL sub vs. sub, that is more or less fair fight. If you ping, it's disadvantage. Disadvantage is bad, even fair is bad.

[Cyklop]

Any tactics is good, as long as it's efficient :D

The way active sonar presents its data to the player in DW is not realistic. Getting an audible indication of range to the target below SNR threshold and regardless of propagation conditions is a cheat. But it's just a game.

[MarkShot]

Good point. Of course, one of my primary motivations was to beat the brush so to speak to flush the enemy out.

The most important thing was really his bearing. Given that I had failed to pick him up on sonar, I suppose I could reasonably infer a range of greater than 30kyds.

[Dr.Sid]

Any tactics is good, as long as it's efficient :D

The way active sonar presents its data to the player in DW is not realistic. Getting an audible indication of range to the target below SNR threshold and regardless of propagation conditions is a cheat. But it's just a game.

Well I consider it bug .. in fact you can never hear WEAK return. All returns has same volume. The should get weaker. Since they do not, even really distant targets give full audible return. It's reported since 1.0 AFAIK.

[LuftWolf]

Any tactics is good, as long as it's efficient :D

The way active sonar presents its data to the player in DW is not realistic. Getting an audible indication of range to the target below SNR threshold and regardless of propagation conditions is a cheat. But it's just a game.

Although what you say is true, the implication is not... if I read you correctly.

In fact, range only (audible only) returns are indeed a part of active sonar. Sonar operators have reported on this board that they will frequently have an audible return from a contact that does not actually show up visually on their sonar screens.

I can try to explain how this happens a number of ways, but failing real knowledge of modern sonar systems, I'm just going to say that it happens in game, and it happens in real life as well.

This is why the single-beam active mode on the FFG hull sonar is so useful.

Cheers,
David

[Cyklop]

I can accept that a particular type of active sonar might have difficulty resolving the bearing to a contact which is just at detection threshold. This should not be the case for a rotational beam sonar, though I know that human ears can work better than electronics.

But to receive loud and clear returns at 50 kyds in any conditions seems just so unrealistic.

[SeaQueen]

I then began periodic sprints at 15kts with slow downs to 5kts and ping or two. The enemy was too distant to be able to mark active, but from the echo return I had him at about 50kyds.

Comments? Reasonable tactics or a totally gamey approach based on my confidence on being able to beat an AI torpedo?


The tactic makes sense in a situation where you lack a substantial sensor advantage. In Milan Vego's Soviet Naval Tactics he describes exactly that tactic as something in use by Soviet SSNs. According to him, they called it "discrete search."

[Sea Demon]

I would be very careful using this tactic though against enemies (Russians) with SUBROC type weapons. Use the environment to your advantage. American SSN's lack these weapons unfortunately. An adept Akula captain could easily make minced meat out of a careless 688(I) using this tactic. Might be a more useful approach for the noisier Akula that has such weapons in it's inventory. Like SeaQueen mentioned from that book. Now keep in mind, I'm not the best sub skipper out there. But it's just my opinion.

[Ori_b]

It sounds like some optional method for a "cold war" situation (where no one really shoots anyone), or for some really urgent "action-film'y" one (where you must kill it no matter what...), I mean the part where you draw the TIW thing. I dont have much knowledge in RL tactics but i dont think a sub commander will take the risk of luring an enemy to actually LAUNCH(!!) a torpedo at his vessel in RL. Do you really think it is a wise deceision Dr.Sid?

All the other stuff of running and pinging make sense,game sense at least (although i havent tried it)

[Dr.Sid]

Well you only risk your boat and your crew. But the other sub alive my be even bigger risk, while almost all subs can carry tactical nukes. It's just another kamikaze method, and this one may even be survived.

[MarkShot]

Well, since I started the thread ...

I cannot speak anything to the realism.

(1) Dodging a long range fish launched by the AI is quite easy (SC 1.08/SCXIIC). The main reason this is so easy is that the AI neither wire guides nor launch a spread.

(2) With the active sonar and the TIW, I ended up with a very good idea where to look for that sub. I now had range and bearing. What more does anyone need? I had the enemy at 50kyds.

(3) Finally, as I caught only a slight trace of that sub given other information at hand, I was able to shoot based on only a trace contact and an extended TMA solution. Under other circumstances, one might refrain from shooting, but the prior TIW was a good indication that the contact was a hostile sub. My launch was around 25-30kyds.

Game wise, it all worked very well. I would caution that this approach only should be used when you have totally verified that the enemy is extremely distant. If the enemy had been lurking at 10kyds, I would have signed my own death warrant by pinging.

[Molon Labe]

Well, since I started the thread ...

I cannot speak anything to the realism.

(1) Dodging a long range fish launched by the AI is quite easy (SC 1.08/SCXIIC). The main reason this is so easy is that the AI neither wire guides nor launch a spread....
That's why you're "supposed to" play against humans. ;)

Or at least use DW+LW/Ami. The AI will often fire a 2nd shot aimed on your evasion course. :know:

[SeaQueen]

Actually, since you're only going to emit a ping or two, an opponent shouldn't be able to get a range, and therefore not be able to target you effectively with any SUBROC, unless the distance scale of the scenario is unrealistically short.

He would, however have some general notion of your location and if he's smart, he'd just avoid you until you gave up that tactic then move in closer where you might be caught unawares.

I would be very careful using this tactic though against enemies (Russians) with SUBROC type weapons. Use the environment to your advantage. American SSN's lack these weapons unfortunately. An adept Akula captain could easily make minced meat out of a careless 688(I) using this tactic. Might be a more useful approach for the noisier Akula that has such weapons in it's inventory. Like SeaQueen mentioned from that book. Now keep in mind, I'm not the best sub skipper out there. But it's just my opinion.

[Oberon]

:doh: Using active? In a sub? :o

No, never, unless I'm 175% sure there's no enemy in the area.

If I could tape over the active sonar emit button so it couldn't be used at all, I would. :lol:

[fatty]

I'm not afraid to use active - especially if I'm in a really boring MP game that has been dragging on for hours with no progress. The best case trade-off of gaining the enemy's range and bearing for your own bearing is a good deal IMHO. And MarkShot is right, even if they do send a snapshot it's easy to clear datum at range.

[Molon Labe]

Active is useful when in situations where your opponent either has or will have a solution on you before you will have one on him. You can use it to even the "SA score" real quick. If you use it before then, you're giving up an advantage (or the chance to get it).

The exception would be against Kilos, provided you guarantee that you can detect them outside their weapons range (definitely possible in stock DW).

[SeaQueen]

The exception would be against Kilos, provided you guarantee that you can detect them outside their weapons range (definitely possible in stock DW).

I'm never going to forget this one scenario I was playing in DW, where I couldn't figure out what was going on, because I'd picked up some narrow band tonals from two Kilos on my towed array and the bearing rates for both of them were extremely high. I was like, "oh my god... I know they're close... but which one is which?" It turned out they were tracking each other as much as me, and eventually they either shot at each other or collided and killed each other. It was pretty funny.

Needless to say, I had to fix that part of that scenario.

[MarkShot]

Yep, I had something like that in SCX. I was living on borrowed time as two ASW helos were almost right on top of my position. Next thing I know, a loud explosion. No message ... but effectively, "Con, Sonar, rotors in the water, bearing 009 degrees!". :)

[NefariousKoel]

I've intentionally cavitated very briefly while having a snapshot ready and waiting for bearing when paranoia gets the best of me. But I've never cavitated and went Active at the same time.

Besides, I'd probably take too long turning Active off after my buzzin' the nest.:shifty: