tote for working out manual solutions

[micky1up]

its a format for working out a solution

R=range
B=bearing rate
R=RSA(relative speed across)
O=OSA(own speed across)
T=TSA (targets speed across)
S= speed
A=ATB
R=reciprocal bearing
C=course


and DOT which distance off track which is always handy


range = 2x RSA /BEARING RATE
BEARING RATE = 2X RSA/ RANGE
RSA= BEARING RATEXRANGE/2
OSA =SIN REL BRG X OWN SPEED
TSA = SIN ATB X TGT SPEED
SPEED =TSA/SIN ATB
ATB =TSA/SPEED INV SIN
DOT = RANGE X SIN ATB


THIS IS HOW WE GET TO A BEARING RATE ONLY SOLUTION IN THE RN SOMETIMES YOU NEED TO GUESTIMATE SPEED AND RANGE HERES AND EXAMPLE
own course 030 speed 8 tgt range 16k bearing rate 1.0L bearing 060 speed 16 find tgt course ( if you go down the tote same directions add different subtract opposite if you go up the tote differnt add same subtract)

RANGE 16000YDS
BEARING RATE 1.0L
RSA 8L
OSA 4L
TSA 12L
SP 16
ATB 48PT
RECIP BRG 240
COURSE 288 (pt atb plus stb subtract)
DOT 12k
you can do this on a calculator using the formulae or on the old bearing rate widger standard issue on RN subs or if you good enough in your head


for intance sin atb 30 =.5 or half so if the range is 10k then the dot =5k( dot is a estimate of how close the target is going to come it dosent take into account own speed so it may come closer but its a quick way of making sure your safe)
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/smartdark/user_online.gif

[PeriscopeDepth]

Thank you micky, this kind of stuff is great (especially when you have a programmable calculator handy). Anything else like this that you're allowed to share would be most welcome. :)

PD

[micky1up]

sins in your head using clock face rule


imagine a clock

10mins past = 1/6th
15mins past -=1/4
20 past= 1/3
30 mins past easy = 1/2
40 =2/3
anything over 45 add 25 and call it a percentage

so distance of track atb 50 at 10000= 50 +25(over 45 add 25)call at percentage 75% dot =7500yds

[Bill Nichols]

sins in your head using clock face rule


imagine a clock

10mins past = 1/6th
15mins past -=1/4
20 past= 1/3
30 mins past easy = 1/2
40 =2/3
anything over 45 add 25 and call it a percentage

so distance of track atb 50 at 10000= 50 +25(over 45 add 25)call at percentage 75% dot =7500yds

Another (equivalent) way to estimate sines is:

sin(X degrees) = X / 60

which works surprisingly well for X < about 45 degrees.

[Pisces]

sins in your head using clock face rule


imagine a clock

10mins past = 1/6th
15mins past -=1/4
20 past= 1/3
30 mins past easy = 1/2
40 =2/3
anything over 45 add 25 and call it a percentage

so distance of track atb 50 at 10000= 50 +25(over 45 add 25)call at percentage 75% dot =7500yds

Another (equivalent) way to estimate sines is:

sin(X degrees) = X / 60

which works surprisingly well for X < about 45 degrees.


My left brain says: " :eek: :arrgh!: Ugh!! Yuck! Up to 6% error. How horrible unprecise."

My right brain says: "Wow! :/\\k: What a beautiful picture. This helps to get things in perspective"

I wonder which one is going to win this fight. Great help guys.

[Linton]

Would anybody be able to format the above into a useful reference sheet to use in the game?

[OneShot]

A bit more elaboration on it would be nice ... for example what some of the units mean, ie "L" and "PT" for starters. Perfect would be representation with real math symbols and a nice legend for the unit (write - scan - post ... sorta).

Cheers
OS

[Bill Nichols]

sins in your head using clock face rule


imagine a clock

10mins past = 1/6th
15mins past -=1/4
20 past= 1/3
30 mins past easy = 1/2
40 =2/3
anything over 45 add 25 and call it a percentage

so distance of track atb 50 at 10000= 50 +25(over 45 add 25)call at percentage 75% dot =7500yds

Another (equivalent) way to estimate sines is:

sin(X degrees) = X / 60

which works surprisingly well for X < about 45 degrees.


My left brain says: " :eek: :arrgh!: Ugh!! Yuck! Up to 6% error. How horrible unprecise."

My right brain says: "Wow! :/\\k: What a beautiful picture. This helps to get things in perspective"

I wonder which one is going to win this fight. Great help guys.


Your left brain had better get out of the way... what I posted was taught to me in the US Navy's submarine school. :know:

[micky1up]

A bit more elaboration on it would be nice ... for example what some of the units mean, ie "L" and "PT" for starters. Perfect would be representation with real math symbols and a nice legend for the unit (write - scan - post ... sorta).

Cheers
OS

sorry L means left R means right (osa and tsa annd rsa always have a diection left or right)

pt means port and stb means starboard

[Linton]

All of the above with a simple diagram would be excellent.

[micky1up]

would you like a pound of my flesh aswell :lol:

[Linton]

would you like a pound of my flesh aswell :lol: Micky1up, I wasn't asking for it yesterday,but could you view it as an urgent operational requirement!!!:D:D:D

[micky1up]

just call me micky but if you want i can come round your house clean up hoover set your recordings on sky wash your car and feed the dog


all i do is write down rbrostarc vertically and write the numbers across from the relavent term in the ruff we do this on board on the fly although some boats have a traflight tally made up



p.s i wont mention what you want me to do to the wife :lol:

[micky1up]

i do have some formulae for narrowband but because it isnt really simulated in the game as its done for real it wouldnt be much use in those formulae its all done with speed of sound and co sin's

[Linton]

Micky ,the wife said would next tuesday be ok ,and I would be interested just to see the narrowband mathematics if you would post it or pm it.

[micky1up]

doppler effect = range rate x frequency line/speed of sound

OSL(own speed along) cos rel brg x own sp

TSL ( target speed along) cos atb x vt ( target speed)

OSL OR TSL kts to hz osl or tsl x freq line/3000 gives hz

OSL OR TSL hz to kts osl or tsl x 3000 / freq line gives kts

base frequency cos atb x vt


atb tsl(kts)/vt inv cos

speed tsl/cos atb = kts


1959 range 110.85 x rate of change of range rate / bearing rate squared


all these are only relevent to tracking a tonal to two decimal places on a paper plot although some can be done on the TDHS computer

[Ramius]

doppler effect = range rate x frequency line/speed of sound

OSL(own speed along) cos rel brg x own sp

TSL ( target speed along) cos atb x vt ( target speed)

OSL OR TSL kts to hz osl or tsl x freq line/3000 gives hz

OSL OR TSL hz to kts osl or tsl x 3000 / freq line gives kts

base frequency cos atb x vt


atb tsl(kts)/vt inv cos

speed tsl/cos atb = kts


1959 range 110.85 x rate of change of range rate / bearing rate squared


all these are only relevent to tracking a tonal to two decimal places on a paper plot although some can be done on the TDHS computer

Ahhhh, the joys of tonal tracking :rotfl:

For 59's just use the +10% ;)

[Henson]

I have a lot to add here, but we americans are not allowed to, even if the math can be googled. Sorry. I will tell you that these are great tools for tracking in game.

Question: Does range rate analysis (frequency tracking using doppler) actually work properly in game? I just assumed that it was beyond the model and never tried.

[Dr.Sid]

There is no doppler in the game, as far as I know.
Can you give some more info about how it should work ? As much as you dare :up:

[Henson]

There is no doppler in the game, as far as I know.
Can you give some more info about how it should work ? As much as you dare :up:
I can't give specifics, but if you think about the doppler effect very long you'll understand that it isn't a high-level concept. When I walk towards you, the sine wave making up my particular tonal compresses, causing the frequency to increase. The amount of that increase (or decrease) gives me a lot of useful information, especially for detecting contact zigs.

Range rate analysis gives the piece of the puzzle that is missing from bearings-only TMA. Bearing rate shows relative speed across the line of sight, and frequency rate shows relative speed in the line of sight. Since what we do is basically a vector problem, put 'em together with one in the x axis and the other in the y and you have course.

[Dr.Sid]

I see .. I understand you as if there is some way to determine distance from doppler alone.

To get speed 'in-line' you have to know 'no Doppler' frequency of the line you are looking at right ? If targets makes circle, it's the middle frequency. Simple. But what if the target does not make the circle ?

How many NB lines are known to be fixed and their frequency is know exact enough ? If I understand it correctly, there is not so many of them as in DW (where all are fixed). Many of the lines are machinery based and these change with RPM of corresponding parts.

[Henson]

Yeah. It's complicated, and I'm on thin ice as it is. I'm sorry.

(How the hell did I get this tagline???)

[Dr.Sid]

You've got the tagline because you spoke too much :rotfl:

[Henson]

I'm always careful to google before I speak. :up: